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Old 03-16-2012, 09:37 AM
jbenn7885 jbenn7885 is offline
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i have a dpms oracle m4 optic ready w/ magpul grip, stock, trigger gaurd, forend and grip.i have 7 pmag clips 30 round and some 20 round and i have no problems with them releasing from the well. even with all the magpul kit on it it is still way cheaper than dd and have fired over a thousand rounds through it and never had any problems. dd is a great gun but i didnt have dd money. any brand of gun if you keep it clean and take care of it will work in a shtf situartion.
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Old 03-18-2012, 09:03 AM
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How do you know they cut corners? Do you work there? Taken a tour of the plant and witnessed it?

As far as I know, Colt and FN are the only companies that even have the TDP. What is everyone else going by? How did the other companies find out since it is proprietary info?

The military pays about $800 for a new Colt M4. Civilian version is what, $1000

How do you know that Colt commercial rifles undergo the same inspection as the military issue rifles? Maybe Colt uses mil. reject parts in their civie rifles.
Are you serious? The pictures are right there of how they cut corners. The crappy staking on the bcg, no staking on the castle nut, non f marked fsb with a flattop receiver, straight pins. Or do you own a DPMS and choose to ignore the pictures in front of you?

If the TDP is so secret, how has LMT, BCM, Noveske, DD met it for so many years? Hell even Spikes and PSA can meet it, at a lower price than DPMS and Shrubmaster.
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Old 03-18-2012, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by jbenn7885 View Post
i have a dpms oracle m4 optic ready w/ magpul grip, stock, trigger gaurd, forend and grip.i have 7 pmag clips 30 round and some 20 round and i have no problems with them releasing from the well. even with all the magpul kit on it it is still way cheaper than dd and have fired over a thousand rounds through it and never had any problems. dd is a great gun but i didnt have dd money.
You didn't have DD money? A DPMS Oracle is $729.00 MSRP You can piece together a quality rifle so not much more.

BCM 16" M4 Upper - $399
BCM BCG - $139
Charging Handle - $22.95
Magpul MOE Handguard $29.95
PSA Stripped Lower - $79.95
DD Lower Parts Kit - $82
MAGPUL MOE Stock Kit Milspec - $69.95

Total: $822.80

In reality you could probably even afford to get nicer stuff than this as you can even break the purchases up rather than dropping over 700 at once. And considering you bought a DPMS then added magpul goodies you probably spent more than $822 regardless.

Quote:
any brand of gun if you keep it clean and take care of it will work in a shtf situartion.
A rifle being cleaned has nothing to do with its reliability. If a company has QC issues or used lower grade parts them being clean won't overturn their defects if they are present.

What would you rather have a rifle that is known to have QC issues, or a rifle than some have ran 40,000+ rounds through and changed the extractor twice and BCG once?

http://www.slip2000.com/art-swat2.html

A Good read.
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Old 03-18-2012, 09:32 AM
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This thread is full of win.
Old 03-18-2012, 10:33 AM
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I'll throw some pics up here as well.

-Noveske's Lower


-LMT Bolt Carrier Group Staking




-LMT Bolt MP marking - Couldn't get great picture


-BCM Feed Ramps


-BCM Pin and weld on a Battlecomp


No castle nut or FSB on this rifle.
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Old 03-18-2012, 09:29 PM
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Thank you for contributing JJJ,

So I got the reciver "slop" pictures in for the DPMS. I will go ahead and post the DD ones up agian in this post so you dont have to go between page 1 and 2 to compare.

Daniel Defense light through the upper and lower reciever crack as requested by Jeff. I will Picture the DPMS on Sunday, it is currently at my BOL.


A look at the light shining through the FCG

A look of light through the mag well

While this shows a gap being present, I wasnt totaly happy with the test so I went and purchased some feeler gages.
For all who dont know a human hair is .003 (3 thousandth's of a inch)


On the left side of the reciever the thickest feeler I could get through one side was .004" which is .001 bigger than a human hair.


Here is the right side, .006" is the largest feeler I could get through one side. Twice that of a human hair. So all in all it is a snug fit. I am also glad jeff brought this up because Daniel Defense has been known to have excess slop between their recivers.

Dpms light through the upper and lower reciever crack as requested by Jeff.


A little light above the FCG on the Dpms


A little light on the DPMS showing by the front take down pin.

The Dpms is in fact a little tighter than Daniel Defense on their reciever mating.


Left side of the Dpms reciever is 5 thousandths


Right side of the Dpms is 2 thousandths

Here are the buffers.

Daniel Defense factory H-buffer, note this should be factory on every AR15 in 5.56.


Dpms buffer, unmarked.....this should be at least a H-buffer especially with carbine gas.

Final pictures are of the rear reciever endplates

Dpms, nothing special.


Daniel Defense, reciever end plate with built in Quick Detach socket. Sorry for the extremely crappy picture, the flash was the only way I could get any depth out of it.
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Old 03-19-2012, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by NavigatinCollapse View Post
Are you serious? The pictures are right there of how they cut corners. The crappy staking on the bcg, no staking on the castle nut, non f marked fsb with a flattop receiver, straight pins. Or do you own a DPMS and choose to ignore the pictures in front of you?

If the TDP is so secret, how has LMT, BCM, Noveske, DD met it for so many years? Hell even Spikes and PSA can meet it, at a lower price than DPMS and Shrubmaster.
If you will read my prior posts, I do own a DPMS AP4. As I said before, Young Mfg, considered one of the finest BCG's, doesn't even stake their gas key screws. Have you ever had a non-staked castle nut come off? I never have. Non f marked FSB- well put an A2 rear sight on it. Straight or tapered pins, I've never seen either one come off or move, have you?

Good question-how do they know what to build it to? Why don't you call them and ask if they have a copy of the TDP. If they don't, well....?
Old 03-19-2012, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by 84tecate View Post

Here are the buffers.

Daniel Defense factory H-buffer, note this should be factory on every AR15 in 5.56.

Dpms buffer, unmarked.....this should be at least a H-buffer especially with carbine gas.
Yet, you have 3000 rounds on the DPMS, with a carbine buffer, with no ill effects.

Again I ask, what the price of the DD was versus the DPMS.
Old 03-19-2012, 09:22 AM
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Great thread 84tecate! Thanks for taking the time to take and post up all of those pics. DD does build a nice rifle. I never noticed the magwell flare before. Good stuff!
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Old 03-19-2012, 10:36 AM
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Thank you for the info. Im glad I went with DD as my 1st AR, this thread gave me a peace of mind that I choose the right company.
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Old 03-19-2012, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by lonewarrior View Post
Yet, you have 3000 rounds on the DPMS, with a carbine buffer, with no ill effects.

Again I ask, what the price of the DD was versus the DPMS.
Again, my DPMS has had continous short stroke probelms since it was brand new, this could be due to a loose gas key, wrong buffer, over or under gassed.

The price in 2009 DPMS was $850 the price of the Daniel Defense was free.

DPMS dosnt offer this model anymore so for getting a fair comparison I couldnt, but Buds gun shop sells DD M4V3 at $1200 at times.

The Daniel Defense comes with a $300 dollar rail, $100 dollar stock approx, and a $100 rear site.

There is $500 in accesories alone in the Daniel Defense. If you want more of a apples to apples the Daniel Defense XV carbine with normal handguards sells for around $900-$1000. So one to two hundreded dollars more you can have all these features, kinda of a no brainer if you ask me.

But if that is still to spendy, you could assemble a PSA for roughly the same cost as a lower DPMS model.

If you want to learn the information is out there, if you choose to continue to be stubborn and argue over shoddy workmanship because this is your pet brand thats your choice.

Like I said post pictures of your parts and components so people can determine the quality of the build.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewarrior View Post

OK, so? I really can't tell a difference in my AR's
Judging from all your post in my thread this appears to be true

And the rifle case effects performance how?
It performed to show the difference in the packaging, this may matter to other people besides you


Again, this effects rifle performance how? I do believe DPMS makes their receivers as well.

Again, had you read my OP, you would have noted I was comparing differences, but yet you refues to read and are automatically taking a bias, do you have any links to provide that would help prove DPMS makes their own recivers? Dont argue in my thread with nothing to back your statement up. Do your home work before getting into it

Purchase price of DD versus DPMS?
Daniel Defense = Free DPMS = $850


OK, if it works better for you great. I've tried both and it really doesn't matter to me either way.
Still cant deny that the Flared magzine well is a better touch than a standard magwell

Here Is the Daniel Defense with the proper F-marked Front sight Base for flat top uppers. It measured in at 1.980 which is right to spec. I couldnt get the camera to focus on the "F" marking on it. It is pinned with taper pins, which is a more secure way to fasten it to the barrel



I bought an A2 detachable rear sight. Problem solved.
Cool, what if some one else want to run troy flip ups? or what if you want to run a Eotech and a magnifier the fixed A2 wont be doing you any good on it. Like I said before, there is a Right and Wrong way to do things and you have kept defending the wrong way because my post struck a nerve with you, dont like it dont read it


If you haven't experienced it, why bring it up? When torqued properly, I seriously doubt it is going to come loose. Not to mention, if something happens to the tube, it is only harder to get off.
I brought it up agian, because this post was to compare the difference please re-read my first post because you cannot grasp this concept.
I seriously doubt it is going to come loose. How do you even know you have never held this praticular rifle of mine, agian it is held on with torque and torque alone thus already makes it possible to back off. This is shoddy workmanship no matter how you try to defend it. And with a properly built rifle I wont have a reason to take the buffer tube off and I will also enjoy my extended selection for stocks becuse Daniel Defense went with the Mil-spec reciver extension dimensions.



My replies in red. I own a couple AR's including a DPMS AP4.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewarrior View Post
How do you know the gas rings are bad?
With the BCG test that I posted a picture of, go to AR15.com or even m4carbine.net (come back with a link of what you have found) and search on how to determine your gas rings are bad, please research before trying (emphaysis on trying) to create a argument

Does it still cycle? 540 rounds vs. 3000 rounds is not a fair comparison. No it dosnt still cycle now nor when it was new, I reliazed it wasnt a fair comparison and thats why I posted up approx round counts so people could determine this, you just managed to point out the obvious

Maybe they do reject the whole lot if it fails. I will just stick with a company that tests all there bolts who can do things right and have a clear track record of producing good gear.

Do you work there? Ask them.
Nope and between you and I im glad I dont becuase I was taught if your going to do it do it right which is lacking in DPMS's world.

Are you aware that Young Mfg, considered one of the finest BCG's, uses no staking at all. Properly torqued gas key screws, loc-tited will not come out.
You are aware that Young MFG, hasnt seen any wars. I honestly have never heard of Young. Two probelms with this, one Loc-tite is a Sugar based substance (wikipedia, go do your reasearch) and will break down with heat and a gas key is a area of high heat. Two with torque and torque alone it is possible those screws to come out.

Three, atleast I was talking about DPMS and not Young mfg, Young mfg dosnt have a place in my thread simply because Young manufacturing isnt pictured in any of my pictures. You are simply defending shotty workmanship and cannot come to terms with it.

Let me ask you this if staking wasnt required why does DPMS even atytempt it then?


Not sure about DPMS bolt material, will email them for clarification.
Cool why even post in my thread if you dont have all your "facts straight"

M4 feedramps aren't necessary.
Nope, but I prefer them especially when they are done right. Also with the DPMS being Carbine gas it should have m4 ramps to be a proper clone

.

Non-issue, ever hear of manufacturing tolerance? Cool so what are the manufacturing tolerances of the magwell?
My GI mags drop free in my AP4, but since I practice mag retention, makes no difference. I just don't trust plastic mags.
I trust P-mags over usgi for drops and bumps, personal preference


Chrome lined 4150 steel barrels are an option available with DPMS, at not much more cost. I have yet to hear of anyone shooting out a plain 4140 barrel. Have you?

So if it isnt that much more why not make it standard on all their rifles, I dont feel I should have to want to upgrade to somthing that comes standard on other rifle (PSA) for the same cost. Also note that chrome lined 4150 is not Mil-11595E; research challenge can you explain the difference with links to your research? I have heard of people shooting out 4140, 4150, mil-11595e and stainless steel barrels and barrels have a finite life. Again my choice will be Mil-11595e


It really doesn't matter what you own, as long as you put in trigger time and know how to fix something if it goes wrong. Thanks for posting.
In a SHTF or TEOTWAWKI situation where parts are not readily aviable and warranty's dont apply I would rather stake my life on somthing from a proven back ground that is built with the best materials and had one of the best reputations in the industry.
In the end, the pictures speak for themselves. Your arguments are weak and show support to shoddy manufacturing techniques, I too once argued that DPMS was just as good as and in past posts on this board they can be found, I didnt want to take the facts in and accept them because I bought my DPMS with out doing any home work.
For the third time please post pictures of your DPMS to contribute to this thread and quite trying to start arguments, my pictures prove where they cut corners and amazed you can still try and make a arqument for them. /fail
Old 03-19-2012, 01:48 PM
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Again, my DPMS has had continous short stroke probelms since it was brand new, this could be due to a loose gas key, wrong buffer, over or under gassed.
Since you have had these problems since it was new, did you contact them to send it back and have it checked? They have an excellent warranty.

Bottom line is are you willing to stand in front of me and take your chances of my DPMS not working? I didn't think so.

I trust my DPMS just as much as my Colt. End of story.
Old 03-19-2012, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewarrior View Post
Since you have had these problems since it was new, did you contact them to send it back and have it checked? They have an excellent warranty.

Bottom line is are you willing to stand in front of me and take your chances of my DPMS not working? I didn't think so.

I trust my DPMS just as much as my Colt. End of story.

I havnt bothered too send it to DPMS, it was a range toy/varmit rifle/ weekend plinker from day one, hence why I have had a AK clone before the DPMS for any shtf needs.

Nope, again not the point of my thread that you fail to understand, I simply posted pictures of both up letting people under stand and see the differences. Once again I have first hand knowledge with both DD and DPMS, I gave people the ability to see the difference between the two thats it.

If you really want to know, I wouldnt intentionally stand infront of any loaded firearm, even one with oil soaked powder.


Let me ask you this, did your DPMS or Colt come first?
Why wont you post pictures of both in my thread (for the 4th time now)?
Why did you ignore all of my replies that I made to you?

If you dont like my post again you dont have to read and respond. You also never sent me any PM's wanting to discuss any of this like I had asked of you.
Old 03-19-2012, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewarrior View Post
Since you have had these problems since it was new, did you contact them to send it back and have it checked? They have an excellent warranty.

Bottom line is are you willing to stand in front of me and take your chances of my DPMS not working? I didn't think so.

I trust my DPMS just as much as my Colt. End of story.
I think the point to the story is if it hadn't been a DPMS the odds were in his favor to not have short stroking issues from the beginning.

Bottom line is I'd feel better having a higher quality gun in my hands if I ever had to stand in front of someone with a DPMS.

I'm glad that you can trust your life to something of less quality, myself and others I'm sure simply cannot especially when the cost difference is minimal.
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Old 03-19-2012, 04:24 PM
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My rule is to not stand in front of anyone with a rifle.

...just me.
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Old 03-19-2012, 04:46 PM
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My rule is to not stand in front of anyone with a rifle.

...just me.
Yes that's right I forgot we can all predict the future and can plan to avoid anyone that wishes to do you and your family harm.

Just because it's your rule doesn't mean someone won't break it for you.
Old 03-19-2012, 05:32 PM
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Thanks for this very informative post... Well done...
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Old 03-19-2012, 05:38 PM
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Yes that's right I forgot we can all predict the future and can plan to avoid anyone that wishes to do you and your family harm.

Just because it's your rule doesn't mean someone won't break it for you.

Sharp typer aren't ya.

Have fun in the thread.
Old 03-19-2012, 09:30 PM
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If you will read my prior posts, I do own a DPMS AP4. As I said before, Young Mfg, considered one of the finest BCG's, doesn't even stake their gas key screws. Have you ever had a non-staked castle nut come off? I never have. Non f marked FSB- well put an A2 rear sight on it. Straight or tapered pins, I've never seen either one come off or move, have you?

Good question-how do they know what to build it to? Why don't you call them and ask if they have a copy of the TDP. If they don't, well....?
Yeah for 3 gun, on a one way range.

I roll my own lowers and staked mine and my friends because that's the way it's supposed to be done. I only buy quality BCM bcg's.

I did buy a Delton A2 upper as a range toy so I'll report back about the straight pins. It does have a BCM bcg and I have a Sprinco Blue action spring if it's overgassed.

The flattop upper is what adds to the height issue so it doesn't matter what rear sight you add to it.

I've had 2 fte's in 10k rounds (8k was russian steel) through my BCM and LMT due to a worn out $4 extractor spring at the 5k mark in my LMT. That is danm good quality.

The facts are there. Some people don't have issues with any of this stuff but it's better to buy right the first time than to take a chance and either bitch and moan about how ARs suck and/or spend more $ in the end fixing what's wrong with them. Considering the forum we're on and why were here, it's better to not cut corners.
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Old 03-20-2012, 01:18 AM
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For most shooters, and cops the DPMS and shrubmasters are perfectly acceptable. But I have had numerous carbines of this level of quality crap out during our intermediate carbine classes. We run a tough course, close to the Special Forces Combat Support class than a SWAT class and our advanced class is closer to the Special Forces Advanced Urban Combat class as far as round count and toughness for a rifle. No factory AR of this level has passed without repairs. We even give you a list of spare parts to bring if you are running one of these rifles. Same for the Gunsite Veterans Carbine Class. Epic failure there too.

I'm sorry guys, but dumping 1100-1500rds during a 5 day class is hard on the carbine and most mid grade carbines wont cut it. In the SFAUC class for SF the average shooter goes through around 8k rds. for their rifle and M9 in a week and a half. As the Armorer I spent far more time on the M9 than the Colt M4A1. Most functionality problems there were user induced by neglect or torquing the barrel during firing (resulting in broken locking lugs. Some of these guys are pretty big and it is not uncommon).

On the gas carrier key, I HAVE seen lots of non-staked keys work off under shooting. I have seen properly staked carrier keys come loose. A lot. I locktite them and stake them just to be sure. It is a little thing, takes me about 30 seconds with a hammer. But the fact that some companies DON'T do it shows their level of attention to detail. The carrier key takes the brunt of the gas pressure. Not a place to cut corners.

Most people will look at these little thing that companies like Larue, DD, BCM and other do and say why? Well simply because these things add up to make a better gun. I have been a SOF Armorer for more than a decade and a SOT MFG for nearly 16yrs. I have built and worked on thousands of M4's and the little details DO matter.

As for the castle nut issue, no I have never seen one loosen up during firing. But if you use shiot parts like Rock River and locktite the castle nut on (because if you stake MIM it breaks) and want to change it out you have to replace the whole back end. When you crank off the castle nut it turns the tube and strips the threads on the back plate. A proper staking job is not a HUGE issue but it is symbolic of the companies over all approach to QC. I would rather spend the money up front and not in the middle of a class.

On the M4 feed ramps, with modern mags with anti-tilt followers or P-mags these are a non issue. The feed ramps on the barrel extension are enough. But again it goes back to overall approach to the build and QC.

MPI is a neat way of detecting flaws on the surface, but again if a company doesn't MPI their product there is probably a reason for it. I use MPI inspected BCG's and barrels because it is just an extra QC check and it costs pennies per unit to buy them.

Think of it this way. If you do one or two things to your precision rifle that bench rest guys or snipers do, is it going to make a noticeable difference? Not very likely. But they do ALL of those different things because they make a cumulative difference. And that is why it costs more money. The bottom line is, if it works for you fine. But some people worry about situations that they don't see very often or at all. But should they see them it is nice to know that you have a weapon that will take abuse much higher than what you dish out. This is life sustaining equipment, like a parachute. I have seen our rigger just stuff a chute into the bag and then jump it with no ill effects. But there is a system in place to ensure optimum performance. THAT is the chute I want to jump.
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