Survivalist Forum

Advertise Here

Go Back   Survivalist Forum > Survival & Preparedness Forum > Urban Survival > Vehicles & Transportation
Articles Chat Room Classifieds Donations Gallery Groups Links Store Survival Files



Notices

Advertise Here
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-19-2012, 08:33 AM
LiveHard LiveHard is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: N. TX
Posts: 19
Thanks: 3
Thanked 12 Times in 7 Posts
Question EMP proof?



Advertise Here

Just curious, would a vehicle with the old points style distributer/ignition be EMP proof?

What about dirt bikes and atv's?

As a truck driver im often a state away from home at the most, could i protect the vitals on the big rig from such harm and get myself home? Might be a looong walk home! Hence the reason im making a BOB for my work truck.
The Following User Says Thank You to LiveHard For This Useful Post:
Old 02-19-2012, 09:53 AM
roon's Avatar
roon roon is offline
WTF MATE!
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 139
Thanks: 26
Thanked 94 Times in 29 Posts
Default

Thats a good question! I would think some of the older dirt bikes without all the computer stuff on them would be ok. Your question made me wonder if a EMP would fry a ignition coil.
Old 02-19-2012, 11:43 AM
hitech_hick hitech_hick is offline
Noob-Lite
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 479
Thanks: 140
Thanked 250 Times in 155 Posts
Default

The general consensus is the less electronics you have, the better off you are. In reality though, we have no way of knowing exactly how modern vehicles will be affected.



hick
The Following User Says Thank You to hitech_hick For This Useful Post:
Old 02-19-2012, 11:47 AM
Happy Joe's Avatar
Happy Joe Happy Joe is offline
Hunter
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 1,862
Thanks: 378
Thanked 1,223 Times in 778 Posts
Default

This is just an opinion;
Based on my knowledge of electronics & mechanical systems along with careful consideration of known electrostatic damage in solid state devices (I once was involved in this field) there are only a very few engine/vehicle types that could be considered EMP proof;
Steam engines,
Early diesel powered vehicles, with mechanical injection pumps & fuel distribution which use generators instead of alternators, and electromechanical voltage regulators,
Gasoline vehicles (typically pre 1960) that use points, carburetors, generators and electromechanical voltage regulators.

Modern diesels with alternators, electronic voltage regulation and mechanical injection pumps are probably a bit more EMP resistant than computer dependent automobile systems but I certainly would not consider them EMP proof.

I know the majority here feel that they are safe with a Diesel; however, I bet that very few have ever tried to push start a cold one (dead batteries/alternator/no starter), by hand, in cold weather without glow plugs.

Enjoy!
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Happy Joe For This Useful Post:
Old 02-19-2012, 11:49 AM
Majorpayne's Avatar
Majorpayne Majorpayne is offline
Old Dog,New Collar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Northwest
Posts: 258
Thanks: 174
Thanked 301 Times in 141 Posts
Default

Great question. I have an old pickup and would like to know.I wondered about the coil\plugs\starter\points and battery after an emp. I thought about getting an extra set and keeping them in a ammo can. But if someone who knows says don't bother it won't help.I would like to know.
Old 02-19-2012, 12:51 PM
Hick Industries's Avatar
Hick Industries Hick Industries is online now
Live Secret, Live Happy
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: High Desert California
Posts: 7,908
Thanks: 6,129
Thanked 11,945 Times in 4,474 Posts
Default

Certain items in older style as engines are designed to handle very high currents.
Your battery, starter motor, solenoid, ignition coil, distributor, and spark plugs will survive.

Other items are not designed for high currents, but might survive since they are electrical not electronic.
The Points, the condenser, the ignition switch, the electrical fuel pump should survive, particularly if the engine was not running.

Then there are electronic component in most gas motors that stand a poor chance of surviving.
The alternator diodes and voltage controller, any electronic fuel or spark advance component is likely to be damaged.

Modern integrated computer control modules (computers) are less likely to fry than the slightly older single function computers. But remember, no mater how well I shield and isolate the control module, it is still dependent upon position sensors and transducers, and it's control command still must be turned into a physical (analog) voltage change or movement.

I am not counting on being able to drive any of my modern gas vehicles.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Hick Industries For This Useful Post:
Old 02-19-2012, 05:07 PM
LiveHard LiveHard is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: N. TX
Posts: 19
Thanks: 3
Thanked 12 Times in 7 Posts
Default

Looking like a set of spares of everything in an ammo cans might save ya..lol.

Im thinking of building me a off road toy that could double as a BOV, so just trying to see what i need to do "just in case".
Old 02-20-2012, 10:21 AM
Happy Joe's Avatar
Happy Joe Happy Joe is offline
Hunter
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 1,862
Thanks: 378
Thanked 1,223 Times in 778 Posts
Default

If you store spare in case of EMP be certain it is in a steel covered steel box which is electrically grounded and preferably below ground (in a basement etc).

This is the strategy that I use and I have gone so far as to do a trial component replacement on the vehicle to see how long it takes; for me it was roughly 2 hours (your results may be different).
Note; it might be a good idea to store several sets as an EMP resulting from an attack or from natural sources could easily be repeated several times. (Bug in for a while, if your can, then switch out parts).
Also some solid state parts might still work for a while even though damaged (I have seen devices function for up to 3 months after electrostatic damage before failing)... its a matter of luck.

Enjoy!
The Following User Says Thank You to Happy Joe For This Useful Post:
Old 02-20-2012, 01:30 PM
East in the West East in the West is offline
just sit back and enjoy
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: derp
Posts: 44
Thanks: 26
Thanked 11 Times in 8 Posts
Default

I would just get a very rugged mountain bike with mounts for holding bags.Dont forget to stock up on tools and extra stuff like that.
Old 02-20-2012, 06:05 PM
AZSrvr's Avatar
AZSrvr AZSrvr is offline
Trapper
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 880
Thanks: 226
Thanked 436 Times in 254 Posts
Default

if u just grounded the outer body of your vehicle would it act as a type of faraday cage? or does it have to be closed? or would it just not work for some other reason?
Old 02-21-2012, 07:43 AM
Happy Joe's Avatar
Happy Joe Happy Joe is offline
Hunter
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 1,862
Thanks: 378
Thanked 1,223 Times in 778 Posts
Default

Quote:
I would just get a very rugged mountain bike with mounts for holding bags.
I favor using a bicycle as a second stage/choice vehicle;
They do not work well on ice or in wild fire, very high wind,snow/mud/flood conditions,
They do not provide any operator protection,
They prevent defensive measures while in operation,
When loaded with a medium amount of supplies their stability, speed and maneuverability is compromised.

However, if its all that you have; use it.

Quote:
if u just grounded the outer body of your vehicle would it act as a type of Faraday cage?
Steel skinned vehicles can indeed help protect components from EMP however since the glass provides no protection and the unshielded underside of the engine compartment provides no protection it is full of holes at best. It is likely that shielding the low tension wires (obviously shielding the secondary ignition wires is a waste of time) and encasing the computer in a steel box also help. Whether it provides enough protection to make the cost/effort worth while is debatable, IMO.

Enjoy!
Old 02-22-2012, 07:40 AM
Robert217 Robert217 is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 18
Thanks: 6
Thanked 22 Times in 10 Posts
Default

I know the majority here feel that they are safe with a Diesel; however, I bet that very few have ever tried to push start a cold one (dead batteries/alternator/no starter), by hand, in cold weather without glow plugs.

Enjoy![/QUOTE]

I agree with everything else you said but I have a 1993 cummins and have tried this, they do not have glow plugs only grid heaters, I have parked on a small hill, disconnected the grid heater, sprayed some starting fluid and she started first try at 15 degrees. And because of the no glow plugs the motor isn't using power while it is running, so if the alternator was fried it would still run. I believe pre 98.5 cummins mated with a 5 speed 4x4 to be the perfect mix between daily driver and ultimate bov. And I can pull anything and get 20mpg
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Robert217 For This Useful Post:
Old 02-23-2012, 02:34 PM
WarMachineX0's Avatar
WarMachineX0 WarMachineX0 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 53
Thanks: 12
Thanked 40 Times in 27 Posts
Default

My goal to to EMP proof my BOV, Keep a spare set of electronics and the parts needed to go carb (i.e. starter, distributor, Carb, and other such stuff) in a faraday cage. EMP goes off, when its clear go old school on my BoV, then bug out. I'm using a 5.7L gas chevy over a desiel because I believe in an EMP one would be too hard to recover a desiel, but a Chevy 350 is easy to work with and parts are plenty.

That IMO is the only way to have a vehicle survivle a EMP. I'm a ASE mechanic, and ex military, don't have alot of person experiance with an EMP, but my what I do know tells me this for all intents and purposes should work.
The Following User Says Thank You to WarMachineX0 For This Useful Post:
Old 02-25-2012, 01:39 PM
2nevermore's Avatar
2nevermore 2nevermore is offline
tempus fugit
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: in a van down by the river
Age: 33
Posts: 699
Thanks: 196
Thanked 942 Times in 367 Posts
Default

What about those steel shipping containers? Would it work as a faraday cage if you put the whole vehicle inside it or would you need to weld up all the seams?
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to 2nevermore For This Useful Post:
Old 03-07-2012, 08:55 PM
MikeV1234's Avatar
MikeV1234 MikeV1234 is offline
Web Designer
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Lake County, IL (Northern Suburbs of Chicago)
Posts: 714
Thanks: 1,759
Thanked 601 Times in 302 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WarMachineX0 View Post
My goal to to EMP proof my BOV, Keep a spare set of electronics and the parts needed to go carb (i.e. starter, distributor, Carb, and other such stuff) in a faraday cage. EMP goes off, when its clear go old school on my BoV, then bug out. I'm using a 5.7L gas chevy over a desiel because I believe in an EMP one would be too hard to recover a desiel, but a Chevy 350 is easy to work with and parts are plenty.

That IMO is the only way to have a vehicle survivle a EMP. I'm a ASE mechanic, and ex military, don't have alot of person experiance with an EMP, but my what I do know tells me this for all intents and purposes should work.
I agree that a simple Chevy 350 carburetor with a coil is best.
Also if SHTF without an EMP then it's easy to fix yourself.
Old 03-10-2012, 02:03 PM
WarMachineX0's Avatar
WarMachineX0 WarMachineX0 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 53
Thanks: 12
Thanked 40 Times in 27 Posts
Default

Oddly enough the other day I was watching Future Weapons on Milt channel. The host actually drove a car through an EMP. Although it stopped the car, and the car couldn't restart, alot of the other electronics wasn't affected. The host said the car couldn't restart because the ECM was toast, but simple motors are uneffected by EMPs.

So, I would wager a guess that on an old school carb engine for the most part would be fine, but the starter selenoid and coil would have to get replaced before the car could started again (Two small items that could fit in most people's glove box).
Old 03-12-2012, 10:33 AM
Happy Joe's Avatar
Happy Joe Happy Joe is offline
Hunter
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 1,862
Thanks: 378
Thanked 1,223 Times in 778 Posts
Default

Quote:
the starter solenoid and coil would have to get replaced
Unlikely, IMO, the starter solenoid is built to withstand high currents and heat, its a very robust part electrically and mechanically.
Typical coils are mostly copper wound high voltage transformers and do not include solid state devices, again they are robust and are unlikely to fail due to EMP, IMO. (I do however carry a spare because they have failed when four wheeling).

Most/many modern alternator diodes can be expected to function for a while (only experience damage) or possibly escape unharmed. Early, 1960s, alternator diodes (which had a reputation for failing if the vehicle was welded on using an electric welder would be much more suspect.

Solid state voltage regulators could be more susceptible to damage, IMO, (an alternator rebuild kit, including a new regulator and diodes, could easily be stored (insulated) in a steel box in the vehicle and would likely survive). Note many modern vehicles have delegated voltage control/regulation to the vehicle computer, I normally remove control of this from the computer and install a high amperage GM alternator with internal regulator (easier/cheaper to trouble shoot and repair, parts are everywhere).
Electronic ignition parts could also be damaged by high voltage induced in their associated wires (might be possible to mitigate by shielding the wires). Again, many electronic ignition modules are small and spares could be carried in a steel container.
Probably the most susceptible component of modern engines, IMO, is the ECU/ECM/computer these, especially if they are housed in aluminum, are likely to fail (again due to the over voltage induced in their associated wires by the EMP). I have heard, but can no longer find the reference, that some vehicle computers have survived EMP testing because they were housed in steel cases; this should be regarded as rumor until reliable references can be established.
Some automatic transmissions also have potentially susceptible electronic modules associated with them; since I don't/won't own automatic transmissions this is not an issue.

Having grown up with vehicles with points and carburetors; I would rather run the (low, IMO) risk of EMP than deal with the maintenance/tuning required to keep them running well.

Enjoy!
Old 03-12-2012, 11:17 AM
Zombie_hunter's Avatar
Zombie_hunter Zombie_hunter is offline
Prepared
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Age: 34
Posts: 269
Thanks: 430
Thanked 273 Times in 114 Posts
Default

An emp powerful enough to kill most house hold electronics would melt an ignition coil. Copper interacts with radio frequency and produces power, that much power at once would likely melt the wire.

Think an emp is imminent? Make a small faraday cage for your car's ECU and TCU as well as the ignition coils or coil pack(s).
Old 03-12-2012, 02:08 PM
Happy Joe's Avatar
Happy Joe Happy Joe is offline
Hunter
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 1,862
Thanks: 378
Thanked 1,223 Times in 778 Posts
Default

I doubt it; lightning strikes (a pretty fair series of electro magnetic pulses) kill many appliances (even some that are not plugged in or directly struck) but don't seem to affect the ignition coils of vehicles parked in or next to the building.
Ignition coils are not typically connected to a long wires/electrical transmission lines, which effectively acts as an antenna converting EMP energy to a high voltage pulse (or series of pulses) which ultimately can harm home electronics much like a large power line surge or lightning strike.
Its not the Pulse itself that does the damage; its the high voltage induced into wires associated with the device in question that damages the solid state devices in the electronics. The level of the induced voltage is directly related to the length of the wires exposed to the pulse.
Many home experimenters have run ignition coils at well over 250,000 volts output without issues (HV can be fun).

Have you bothered to estimate/calculate the intensity of an electromagnetic field that would be required to melt an ignition coil?
Remember ignition coils are typically connected (some times directly sometimes indirectly) to spark plugs that act to limit the energy as they are effectively spark gaps (primitive lightning arresters) which short any induced energy to the vehicle ground as soon as it rises high enough to jump the gap which is well below the voltage which the coil is designed to withstand.

Enjoy!
Old 03-13-2012, 09:56 PM
kx250kev kx250kev is offline
"shall not be infringed!"
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: North America
Posts: 370
Thanks: 726
Thanked 395 Times in 168 Posts
Default

Google Soviet test 184 sometime. High Voltage and high currents. They estimated EMP currents of 1500 to 3400 amperes. You want true EMP proof stuff, think bicycles and guns.
Reply

Bookmarks



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
best bullet proof vest / slash proof shakesxxx Reviews and questions 1 02-02-2014 12:51 AM
Fire Proof/Water Proof Safe nico027 DIY - Do It Yourself 7 03-14-2012 12:32 AM
proof the end is near Taisdealach General Discussion 4 08-03-2009 09:39 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright Kevin Felts 2006 - 2012,
Green theme by http://www.themesbydesign.net