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View Poll Results: Do you use FBI results when choosign Selfdefense loads?
Yes I use FBI results to choose SD loads, they use experts and i don't have the time. 11 21.15%
No, those fools don't even know which end the bullets come out. 12 23.08%
No, I just don't trust others to know my particular needs 30 57.69%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-06-2012, 11:19 PM
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Default How many use the FBI results when choosing pistol ammo?



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I have seen a number of people that mention the FBI testing for handgun ammunition. Now I know that manufactures use the testing rules so as to win over law enforcement departments, but how many consumers base their own self defense picks on how a round does in this testing?
I in the past was a person that did base my choices on this, but no longer do. I read what the testing entailed and figured that 1) If I was ever shooting someone behind two layers of plywood I would be using an M1 Garand; 2) I prefer rounds that open up faster and dump their energy faster into the target. The Border patrol does their own studies but does not usally make them easily avaliable to the public. I found some of their studies and looked at how they score things and what they want a bullet to do vs. not too do IE penetrate 20 inches & open slowly. I then did my own testing with bullets that I thought might do what I wanted and made my choices by looking at my results, trying to find avaliable data on round in question, and case studies if avaliable.
I suppose I should also have asked if anyone else does their own testing of personal defense rounds? If some of you do can you list how you test yours (always looking for more good ideals)
Old 02-06-2012, 11:36 PM
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I didn't know the FBI published their tests.
Old 02-06-2012, 11:58 PM
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They don't the company does the testing following rule set out by the FBI, sorry I should have made that clear. But all the companies seem do the FBI test at least once, and none of them seem to have the guts to say that the FBI system is flawed, or at least geared to shooting through cars, walls, car windows, drywall, only one of the eight tests are of fabric covered ballistics gell, and all eight tests (each done twice if I remember right) are weighted the same towards the end results.
Old 02-07-2012, 12:21 AM
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I have been hoping to test bullets on dead pigs, once I get done with schoo. I hope to make a website detailing my results. As soon as I get the time.
Old 02-07-2012, 12:52 AM
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I keep my guns loaded with Hydra-Shoks because FBI uses them (Or used to... I don't
keep up like I should).

I would rather use Black Talons (or whatever they're called now) but I figure if I'm
forced to waste some Obama-voter who comes through my door trying to redistribute
my wealth, and then some sniveling little twit of a DA tries to accuse me of using "Flesh
Ripping Dum-Dum Bullets" or some such thing, I'll at least be able to claim that I just
used whatever the FBI uses.
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Old 02-07-2012, 12:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevedscross View Post
I have seen a number of people that mention the FBI testing for handgun ammunition. Now I know that manufactures use the testing rules so as to win over law enforcement departments, but how many consumers base their own self defense picks on how a round does in this testing?

I in the past was a person that did base my choices on this, but no longer do. I read what the testing entailed and figured that 1) If I was ever shooting someone behind two layers of plywood I would be using an M1 Garand; 2) I prefer rounds that open up faster and dump their energy faster into the target. The Border patrol does their own studies but does not usally make them easily avaliable to the public.

I found some of their studies and looked at how they score things and what they want a bullet to do vs. not too do IE penetrate 20 inches & open slowly. I then did my own testing with bullets that I thought might do what I wanted and made my choices by looking at my results, trying to find avaliable data on round in question, and case studies if avaliable.


I suppose I should also have asked if anyone else does their own testing of personal defense rounds? If some of you do can you list how you test yours (always looking for more good ideals)
The 12" penetration requirement (not 20" as you assert) stems from the fact that not all shots are frontal-torso shots. Many times the bullet must penetrate significantly more tissue, such as when the person being shot has his arms extended in front of him, if the shot is at an oblique angle, etc. You choose ammunition based on a worst-case scenario, not the best.


I have conducted my own terminal ballistics experiments using a variety of different mediums, and nothing is as good as calibrated ballistic gelatin for getting a good consistent, repeatable depth of penetration and seeing the permanent and temporary wound cavities. If you're not using calibrated ballistics gel to test new bullet designs, it's just bogus information.

She short answer to this is to simply use "recommended" premium ammunition like Federal HST (not Hydra-Shok), Winchester Ranger-T (not Black Talons..), Remington Golden Sabre, Speer Gold Dot, Corbon DPX. Why take the chance buying cheap ammo when your life is on the line?


I personally like 124gr Hornady XTPs for my .357 Sig, they're not on the recommended list, but i'm willing to take that chance not because i think i know better than the experts, but because it maches the 125gr SJHP .357 Magnum bullet in terminal ballistics.


I will link you to some websites that will answer your questions, because it sounds like you have been given the wrong information regarding the FBI ammunition testing protocol:

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De..._FAQ/index.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/iwba.htm

http://greent.com/40Page/general/fbitest.htm

http://www.frfrogspad.com/terminal2.htm

http://demigodllc.com/~zak/firearms/...l.php?sort=wv2

Quote:
Originally Posted by firearmstactical.com
The FBI Ammunition Test Protocol is a series of practically oriented tests to measure a bullet's ability to meet these performance standards. The result is an assessment of a bullet's ability to inflict effective wounds after defeating various intervening obstacles commonly present in law enforcement shootings. The overall results of a test are thus indicative of that specific cartridge's suitability for the wide range of conditions in which law enforcement officers engage in shootings


I personally want a hollowpoint bullet to expand under a wider variety of obstacles that may be encountered in a heated exchange. Do you really think a bad guy is going to stand still and give you an oportunity to take careful aim? You may only hit the BG with one shot through a door, wall, furniture, car door etc..(do you carry concealed in your car?) if the bullet goes thru an obstacle and strikes the BG, premium JHP bullets are more likely to expand and will have less of a chance of overpenetration than budget-priced ammunition.

..and just for kicks:



The bottom line is that cutting corners by using cheap ammunition for self-defense to save a few cents per round is the wrong place to save money.
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Old 02-07-2012, 01:14 AM
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FWIW... coincidentally, there's an article in the latest? (Feb.?) American
Rifleman by a Special Agent who was responsible for setting up the FBI's ammunition testing lab. Not much data, but lots of interesting anecdotes.
(can't find a link...)
Old 02-07-2012, 01:21 AM
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I definitely use the results from test like that to help decide what to carry, however I also look at what my local PD carries as well and if they coincide then I am more likely to carry that type of ammo since I can say in court, "if it is good enough for the FBI and _____ PD to carry then I figure that it is good enough for me to carry as well"

I personally carry CorBon DPX though.. as the tests that I have run on it have proved it to suit my needs.
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Old 02-07-2012, 02:24 AM
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Tests are set up for their needs and their library of test results sometimes comes in handy when investigating a shooting or having to testify on a particular shooting as an expert witness. Their needs may be different than yours and you should pick what is suitable for you. Lots of data out there but all they do is test bullets in one medium and not for where you might be shooting,

Personal opinion is pick the round that you shoot best with the gun you are going to use. A hit from a LSWC or a FMJ round is going to be more effective than a miss from a hyper velocity SJHP if you can't hit with the super bullet. On the other hand if you have no problems with what you shoot in your house and neighbor safety isn't a problem and you can shoot that house shaking tree busting dinosaur killer round accurately than have at it.

Don't forget the FBI keeps updating and changing too so you don't have to be wedded to a bullet or a caliber or a gun. They have to keep some kind of uniformity between agencies because of logistics. Like a lot of us they used to buy ammo by contract and the lowest bidder provided their ammo. They have learned that was penny wise but pound foolish and are a little pickier now. You should be to.
Old 02-07-2012, 12:17 PM
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How about an option for:

I consider it along with other sources, personal needs, recommendations, etc.

It's just another piece of info to use in making an informed choice.
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Old 02-07-2012, 12:52 PM
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Because I don't have a degree in Ballistics, and am not qualified nearly as well as the FBI, I'll trust their data. Like usmc0341 says, if you end up in court in the wake of a defensive shooting, it's nice to be able to tell the jury you use what the police use.
Old 02-07-2012, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savinkov View Post
I keep my guns loaded with Hydra-Shoks because FBI uses them (Or used to... I don't
keep up like I should).

I would rather use Black Talons (or whatever they're called now) but I figure if I'm
forced to waste some Obama-voter who comes through my door trying to redistribute
my wealth, and then some sniveling little twit of a DA tries to accuse me of using "Flesh
Ripping Dum-Dum Bullets" or some such thing, I'll at least be able to claim that I just
used whatever the FBI uses.
lol, that's hilarious
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Old 02-07-2012, 02:31 PM
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I choose loads that expand reliably, yet maintain deep penetration. I prefer 14 inches or so in gelatin, because I know that gelatin testing does not correlate to penetration in flesh. I want a load that will penetrate enough to get to the vitals under most any circumstance. And preferably one that would take out the spine, should it be in the bullet's path, since a CNS hit is the only true 100% stopper.

All the energy dump in the world means nothing if the vitals aren't taken. That part is easy to see when you look at the statistics. Every "failure to stop" has one thing in common. No matter how much "energy" the perp absorbed, the vitals weren't taken out. Either through poor shot placement or because of lack of penetration.
Old 02-07-2012, 05:40 PM
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When I carried a taurus ultra lite 30 my load was the same as the FBI 158gr lead SWCHP. I figured they had more money to spend on testing so it was used. I find it amazing that through my past jobs as a paramedic and a deputy sheriff I have seen people that died fron a single .22 rf and I have seen people live after being shot five times with a 9mm. I have also seen a couple survive 00 buck shot and those who fell dead from a .25 auto.
Old 02-07-2012, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevedscross View Post
I have seen a number of people that mention the FBI testing for handgun ammunition. Now I know that manufactures use the testing rules so as to win over law enforcement departments, but how many consumers base their own self defense picks on how a round does in this testing?
I in the past was a person that did base my choices on this, but no longer do. I read what the testing entailed and figured that 1) If I was ever shooting someone behind two layers of plywood I would be using an M1 Garand; 2) I prefer rounds that open up faster and dump their energy faster into the target. The Border patrol does their own studies but does not usally make them easily avaliable to the public. I found some of their studies and looked at how they score things and what they want a bullet to do vs. not too do IE penetrate 20 inches & open slowly. I then did my own testing with bullets that I thought might do what I wanted and made my choices by looking at my results, trying to find avaliable data on round in question, and case studies if avaliable.
I suppose I should also have asked if anyone else does their own testing of personal defense rounds? If some of you do can you list how you test yours (always looking for more good ideals)
Why would anybody trust the "studies" of an agency that discharges their firearms about 10 times a year? The FBI investigates white collar crime, and does internal intelligence activities, neither one requires a lot of violence. they are over hyped and can't shoot any better than anybody on this forum. If you really want to knowwhat I think, feel free to ask me
Old 02-07-2012, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnzy View Post
Why would anybody trust the "studies" of an agency that discharges their firearms about 10 times a year? The FBI investigates white collar crime, and does internal intelligence activities, neither one requires a lot of violence. they are over hyped and can't shoot any better than anybody on this forum. If you really want to knowwhat I think, feel free to ask me
Because I don't particularly care if they are marksmen. I care that they have far better resources, scientists, ballisticians for testing ammuntion than I do.

BTW, you are right about their marksmanship (or lack thereof). The FBI used our range at Malmstrom AFB fairly regularly. I even taught an M16 class for some of their agents. A couple of them were shooters. The rest barely qualified...
Old 02-08-2012, 05:11 PM
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I do my own research. I use Winchester Sliver tips, and Now have Hornady Cridcal Defense ammo. Ill Only use ammo for home defense that is specificly made for that. I also use the same ammo, Croock Country IL uses Silver tips and Hornady cridical. My cousin is a Crook county cop. so is my uncle. they both use the same ammo i use.
Old 02-08-2012, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Filthy_McNasty View Post
The 12" penetration requirement (not 20" as you assert) stems from the fact that not all shots are frontal-torso shots. Many times the bullet must penetrate significantly more tissue, such as when the person being shot has his arms extended in front of him, if the shot is at an oblique angle, etc. You choose ammunition based on a worst-case scenario, not the best.


I have conducted my own terminal ballistics experiments using a variety of different mediums, and nothing is as good as calibrated ballistic gelatin for getting a good consistent, repeatable depth of penetration and seeing the permanent and temporary wound cavities. If you're not using calibrated ballistics gel to test new bullet designs, it's just bogus information.

She short answer to this is to simply use "recommended" premium ammunition like Federal HST (not Hydra-Shok), Winchester Ranger-T (not Black Talons..), Remington Golden Sabre, Speer Gold Dot, Corbon DPX. Why take the chance buying cheap ammo when your life is on the line?


I personally like 124gr Hornady XTPs for my .357 Sig, they're not on the recommended list, but i'm willing to take that chance not because i think i know better than the experts, but because it maches the 125gr SJHP .357 Magnum bullet in terminal ballistics.


I will link you to some websites that will answer your questions, because it sounds like you have been given the wrong information regarding the FBI ammunition testing protocol:

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De..._FAQ/index.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/iwba.htm

http://greent.com/40Page/general/fbitest.htm

http://www.frfrogspad.com/terminal2.htm

http://demigodllc.com/~zak/firearms/...l.php?sort=wv2





I personally want a hollowpoint bullet to expand under a wider variety of obstacles that may be encountered in a heated exchange. Do you really think a bad guy is going to stand still and give you an oportunity to take careful aim? You may only hit the BG with one shot through a door, wall, furniture, car door etc..(do you carry concealed in your car?) if the bullet goes thru an obstacle and strikes the BG, premium JHP bullets are more likely to expand and will have less of a chance of overpenetration than budget-priced ammunition.

..and just for kicks:



The bottom line is that cutting corners by using cheap ammunition for self-defense to save a few cents per round is the wrong place to save money.
That "Lester's" tin is AWESOME!!! Do they sell those, or is that just a pic off the internet? I need one of those to put over my reloading bench!
Old 02-08-2012, 05:34 PM
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Just saw a metal sign with the Lester's (pictured above) on it at a flea market in Phoenix. Laughed my butt off, oh wait, it's still there.

Anyway, use Black Talons in my XD45 - have an expended one and it is .89 inches in diameter - from .45 to .89 with sharp pointy edges, about as good as you're going to get.

For the prosecutor - simple reply - my gun is a tool, and I only buy good tools.
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Old 02-08-2012, 11:01 PM
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For my self defense pistols , both Glock .45 , I just use what my company issues us for on the job . They used to issue Federal Hydra Shocks , now they issue Remington Golden Sabers . If I ever have to go to court , I will state that is the round that I have qualified with and use in a professional environment .
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