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Old 01-15-2012, 11:45 PM
soaren soaren is offline
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Default Good Cheaper SHTF rifle



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Yes I am aware there is a topic RIGHT UNDER THIS ONE that asks (basically) the same question, but I have more specifics that would make this warrant a different topic (I did read the topic below).

/End Rant

I am looking for a cheaper (200-400) dollar rifle that can be used SHTF. I have tried (and I loved) the sks, but it isn't too friendly towards mods, and the length is CQB prohibitive. (Besides the bayonet, if you got one). I like the idea of an AK, but the range is an iffy. And I'd love an ar, but they are out of my price range.

I'm looking mainly for some not commonly mentioned guns (example ruger mini 30, which is too expensive and apparently blows once the barrel heats up) that would fit what I'm looking for. The gun MUST have a common round, and I REALLY like the 762, but I'd settle for a 556 etc if I had to.

I'd like something that could hit 600 yards+, with a barrel shorter than the sks, mod friendly, cheap, and that used a very common round. And of course, bolt action won't do. (Bolt Action = CQB prohibitive).

i know this is asking a lot, and this dream rifle of mine probably doesn't exist, but I'm hoping someone will mention some xyz rifle that I never read about before that would hit this mark. If not I wouldn't be surprized. If you have to bump the price to 500 bucks I'd defidently take a look. I know this price range isn't very workable, but with WW3 around the corner with Iran and all that bull****, I gotta consider what I have RIGHT NOW, and not what I MIGHT have later, I am unemployed.

If I don't get any good recommendations I'll probably just get an ak...

Thanks

Soaren

P.S. Never Surrender!
Old 01-16-2012, 01:12 AM
Patchy Patchy is offline
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A used Marlin lever gun in 30-30. It's not a military cartrige but it is very common. Prices will vary by condition and location.
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Old 01-16-2012, 01:23 AM
Jamie45 Jamie45 is offline
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Your requirements are conflicting. You need a semi, short barrel, 600 yd practical range for 400 or less. About your only hope to find that is to stumble over a “pre-owned” mil surp from somebody that needs cash now.

Not trying to sound ugly, but almost anything semi auto is high dollar these days around here. Add in that 600 yard thing and the price quickly gets steeper. You might be better served to put that 600 yard requirement into a second rifle, like an economy bolt gun chambered in .308.
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Old 01-16-2012, 02:13 AM
soaren soaren is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie45 View Post
Not trying to sound ugly, but almost anything semi auto is high dollar these days around here. Add in that 600 yard thing and the price quickly gets steeper. You might be better served to put that 600 yard requirement into a second rifle, like an economy bolt gun chambered in .308.
I said it wouldn't be easy. But PULEEEZ. I could pick up an SKS for $150. Don't go yabbing about high priced semis. There are plenty of choices.

As I stated above, there is an absolutely incredible amount of guns out there... Makes models etc. I'm hoping someone knows of an xyz rifle that would fit my bill. If not I'm going with an ak.

thanks

Soaren
Old 01-16-2012, 02:26 AM
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Only weapons I can imagine to fulfill all/nearly all of the requirements would be a Saiga .308 or .223

Either one will give you a common, military round for under $400. They are also the most accurate stock AKs I've heard of/seen. You can find quadrails anywhere (~$40) for them for customization. The .308 out of a 16in barrel will most likely cause you permanent hearing loss indoors without ear protection, but will easily meet your 600 yard requirement.

A "good" AR will be around $500-600, not including magazines/optics/etc, so they may be out of your price range. Personally, I do think it would be worth waiting till you had more money to get an AR-15 kit/parts or say a S&W MP15 (~$600, great gun for the price).

Most people looking to fulfill all of your requirements tend to be in the $1000 range minimum.

I personally believe, as do apparently many others here (long time reader, first time poster) that a 22LR is the way to go for SHTF. Hard to justify self defense when taking a 600 yard shot. Keep in mind people who committed murders during Katrina, even the police, were largely prosecuted afterwards.
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Old 01-16-2012, 02:31 AM
FarmerJohn FarmerJohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soaren View Post
Yes I am aware there is a topic RIGHT UNDER THIS ONE that asks (basically) the same question, but I have more specifics that would make this warrant a different topic (I did read the topic below).

/End Rant

I am looking for a cheaper (200-400) dollar rifle that can be used SHTF. I have tried (and I loved) the sks, but it isn't too friendly towards mods, and the length is CQB prohibitive. (Besides the bayonet, if you got one). I like the idea of an AK, but the range is an iffy. And I'd love an ar, but they are out of my price range.

I'm looking mainly for some not commonly mentioned guns (example ruger mini 30, which is too expensive and apparently blows once the barrel heats up) that would fit what I'm looking for. The gun MUST have a common round, and I REALLY like the 762, but I'd settle for a 556 etc if I had to.

I'd like something that could hit 600 yards+, with a barrel shorter than the sks, mod friendly, cheap, and that used a very common round. And of course, bolt action won't do. (Bolt Action = CQB prohibitive).

i know this is asking a lot, and this dream rifle of mine probably doesn't exist, but I'm hoping someone will mention some xyz rifle that I never read about before that would hit this mark. If not I wouldn't be surprized. If you have to bump the price to 500 bucks I'd defidently take a look. I know this price range isn't very workable, but with WW3 around the corner with Iran and all that bull****, I gotta consider what I have RIGHT NOW, and not what I MIGHT have later, I am unemployed.

If I don't get any good recommendations I'll probably just get an ak...

Thanks

Soaren

P.S. Never Surrender!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie45 View Post
Your requirements are conflicting. You need a semi, short barrel, 600 yd practical range for 400 or less. About your only hope to find that is to stumble over a “pre-owned” mil surp from somebody that needs cash now.

Not trying to sound ugly, but almost anything semi auto is high dollar these days around here. Add in that 600 yard thing and the price quickly gets steeper. You might be better served to put that 600 yard requirement into a second rifle, like an economy bolt gun chambered in .308.


i dont meen to call BS

lets look at the criteria

less than $500 tops

likes the ak but the max range sucks
max range for an ak is around 300-400m in that ballpark

ar is too expensive
there not cheap

ruger mini14s suck when the barrel heats up
don't know about the ruger but I know I had that problem with the sks

needs to hit 600m+
well heres a problem most people will never ever shoot that far or further hell I have to drive over an hour to go to a 500m range and 3.5 to a 1km range and I'm lucky


barrel needs to be shorter than an sks
well depending on the model your looking at a sks having a 20-22 inch barrel

ww3 is around the corner


theres one of two possibilities he has very little experience with guns and really needs help

or hes trolling

all the detailed contradictions lead me to think the latter but if I am wrong I apologies and will help if i can and you can be more specific as to why you feel you need to meet the bolded specs

namely why you feel the need to shoot so far and have something so short
Old 01-16-2012, 02:37 AM
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merlinfire merlinfire is offline
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Couple of things you might re-evaluate concerning your requirements.

1. IF You need greater range than an AK can reasonably provide. For any real effectiveness at that range you're gonna need some decent glass, so might as well add $200+ to the price, and that's IF the pattern rifle you choose has good mounting choices. this puts this out of your price range.

2. I think whatever bad stuff you heard about mini-30's "blowing up" is probably keyboard commando drivel. mini-30s are good guns, and the newest ones at least are more accurate than they used to be.

3. in addition to all that I'd ask why you think you'll need 600+ yard shots. you very well may, I'm not saying you won't, but numerous studies have shown that in warzones, most combat takes place within 400-ish yards. iron-sight accuracy on man-sized targets is reasonable in that range, you start getting much further, not so much.


All that being said I'd say either go for an AK, or if you can get a used mini-14, go for that. don't worry too much about "accessories" or "mods", because frankly, when you pull the trigger a bullet comes out at 3000 fps, and that's what a gun is for. if you have sights that let you see your target and put bullets where you want them, the rest is mostly superfluous and is mainly preference
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Old 01-16-2012, 02:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merlinfire View Post
Couple of things you might re-evaluate concerning your requirements.

1. IF You need greater range than an AK can reasonably provide. For any real effectiveness at that range you're gonna need some decent glass, so might as well add $200+ to the price, and that's IF the pattern rifle you choose has good mounting choices. this puts this out of your price range.

2. I think whatever bad stuff you heard about mini-30's "blowing up" is probably keyboard commando drivel. mini-30s are good guns, and the newest ones at least are more accurate than they used to be.

3. in addition to all that I'd ask why you think you'll need 600+ yard shots. you very well may, I'm not saying you won't, but numerous studies have shown that in warzones, most combat takes place within 400-ish yards. iron-sight accuracy on man-sized targets is reasonable in that range, you start getting much further, not so much.


All that being said I'd say either go for an AK, or if you can get a used mini-14, go for that. don't worry too much about "accessories" or "mods", because frankly, when you pull the trigger a bullet comes out at 3000 fps, and that's what a gun is for. if you have sights that let you see your target and put bullets where you want them, the rest is mostly superfluous and is mainly preference

from what i read he was referring to barrel warpage when the barrel gets hot affecting the POI of the rounds

I had an sks that did that once I could never keep a group literally was all over a 4x8 sheet of plywood with 1"grid no pattern first shot was dead center rest were god knows where (and it wasn't my shooting)


as to the studies most shots are actually taken at less than that typically most firefights happen at less than 200m
Old 01-16-2012, 10:35 AM
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First off to get optimum terminal ballistics at 600 yards you are going to have to forget anything under .264 (6.5MM) caliber. If you do not handload and have to buy it you can get halfway decent ammo in enough quantity you are looking at 308/30.06 which is likely to be the most prevalent ammo with good range capability. (NOTE: just because ammo is cheap doesn’t mean you are going to get good performance)


Of those two it would be 308 Win No 1 and 30.06 No 2.
I assume you are talking a single rifle for all around use from small game also useful on folks that need to have their headspace adjusted coming to rip you off or worse.

Farmer John and myself are both long range shooters and we both know the dispersion (accuracy) between different 308 ammo types out there even when fired from an outstandingly accurate rifle is going to be iffy at 600 yards on E silhouette size targets thusly the ability to reload your ammo can allow you to engage targets at longer ranges. Thusly bad ammo in a good barrel is like putting diesel fuel in a gas engine. Your rifle is no better than what you feed it. Couple that with a so-so barrel and still you will not attain good performance.


I cannot stress enough the ability to reload will extend your ability in the field . Think about it, selecting a cartridge fired all the time to 1000+ yards by snipers in Afghanistan is not going to see its full potential in a rifle designed for shorter ranges i.e. having poor sights etc.


I have always been intrigued about a one rifle concept and I have read similar threads on other forums and many have the same or very similar selections but one thing seems to be missing in all the responses along these lines which is at what range will your rifle be zeroed for and how far away could you be effective in hitting a target and how small of a target could you reliably engage with your selection in good light conditions?


You are to be commended to thinking outside the box and recognizing the need to be able to have 600 yard capability. Even though you may never need it, to have it and the ability to use what you have can make all the difference in the world at the right time.


I have read a number of rifle selections and noted most everyone is going for the 223/5.56MM Round or the COMBLOC ammo. Just because it is cheap doesn’t mean it is good. Then again if you do not have the ability to shoot well and have never shot a longer ranges you do not realize the potential you are giving up for such selections.
As Farmer John points out the 7.62X39 is not going to do what you need.


The 5.56 rounds have their highest terminal ballistic performance restricted to 200 yards assuming you are not using a shorter barrel. A full 20” barrel or longer is required to maintain projectile fragmentation to 200 yards and with a 24” barrel you might stretch it to 235 yards. Similar with 7.62X39. 7.62X54 generally has .308 bullets but the bore diameters run .311 so you are giving up a lot to save money. This is not to say 7.62X54 is not a good round but the military combinations are somewhat lacking.


Selection of a rifle for SHTF in all probability would not have a close relation to what the combat distances are for firefights which a smart survivalist is going to avoid unless you are very good at long range and know exactly what your rifle and you are capable of.


The military close range target is the “Dog” or “D” silhouette target is considered to be a prone firer aiming at you and the 5 scoring area is large enough that a wide shot could hit a large prone man. When the military used known distance ranges and the targets were on carriers pasted on cardboard they had a 4 ring is large enough to where you could hit personnel on either side of your intended target and still get a 4 point score. Then the Army did away with KD ranges (a big mistake in my opinion) and went to pop up target systems and just the inner or old 5 scoring area was used.


Only problem is personnel can get scores on these targets by hitting low and knocking up a small stone or a spent bullet and it hit the target and it went down or even worse hitting low and skipping a round up and hitting the target thus just because someonesays they shot a 40 on the range doesn’t necessarily mean a bullet hit the target.


My personnel criteria is the ability to engage and hit a 6” target at 300 yards and a 12” target at 600 yards. This will be with full performance ammo and this can be done with a 308 set up correctly. You have to make your own decision of just how good you want to be but considering you are already thinking 600 then a 12” gun/ammo/shooter combo is required.
I will also utilize cast bullets loaded in the subsonic range for hunting smaller game to help maintain a low profile or if cast bullets do not prove as accurate as desired I will use jacketed bullets of the same weight loaded to under 1100 fps. I live in a rural area and I can hear center fire rifles and shotguns firing from a commercial range over five miles away when the wind is right and for an estimated two miles around at any given time. The longer your barrel with these loads the lower the noise signature.


Both will be handloaded with waterproofed primers and will exhibit about he same noise signature as a 22LR fired from a 18”-20” barrel rifle.


Another problem to be considered is how durable the action you select will be. Think of it like a vehicle.
Would you purchase a vehicle with minimum tread depth tires and head out on a cross country trip with no spare and no jack and dipstick showing black oil below the add oil mark and frayed belts on engine? Obviously you would not so when thinking about a rifle one needs to consider what is the most user friendly system that is known to be able to deliver rounds down range for long periods of time with little or no maintenance.
This automatically eliminates gas operated systems as failure to maintain a gas system will shut you down sooner or later.
There are several actions that can be had that have been sporterized that will allow long life, easy parts replacement with little or ideally no tools that exhibit a positive safety that can be rebuilt in 308 and work fine.
Two of which are the 98 Mauser and the 1903 & A3 Springfields. They are both very rugged and won’t let you down. There are others however and need to be considered on an individual basis.
I am not aware of a factory build gun today that I would trust as much as a one of the above for long life low maintenance highest safety and ease of use.



You can pick up one of the above sporterized for around 200 to 250.00 that will be a good basic platform to work from. Get a spare extractor, striker, striker spring and you are pretty well set for life assuming the barrel is in good shape and these can be found.


There were 98 Mausers made in 30.06 but of course most were made in 8MM and 7MM calibers which are very suitable for 308 conversion.


Barrel length can be critical for long range performance as well as short range with low velocity loads as the noise signature will be much lower with longer barrel.


There are two ways to go about reworking the above rifles . You can alter the original barrel configuration or you can re- barrel with a new barrel. In the case of a rebarrel I would go with a 12 or 13 twist. The factory guns made today I am familiar with have 10 twist which is too fast for cast bullet accuracy in 30 cal. A 13 twist will stabilize a 175 grain bullet to 1000 yards easily.


If you use the issue barrels you can go forward and turn either the 98 or the 03 barrel down to .675 starting about 10” in front of the action. Then have a Weaver 60A sight base mounted on the barrel and install a 2-7X handgun duplex reticle scope there. This allows the retention of the stripper clip feed capability originally designed into these rifles for rapid reloadability.



Why 2-7X scope? At 300 yards a 2X scope cross hairs will generally completely cover a 6” steel disc. At longer range you will need more power to bring out targets of a smaller nature. I would also use Burris Signature Zee Rings with spacer kit to allow the scope (set at the middle of its adjustment range) to be zeroed at 300 yards and not be cranked well off center. Internally adjustable scopes do not like to be cranked to the extreme range of movement as the further you raise it the less windage adjustment you have.


Also a 7x scope will allow you to visually observe approaching personnel to give a looksee of what they might be hiding which could be brought to bear against you. For instance if you have a good lookout point you might just notice a pick up truck stopping a mile up the road and personnel dismounting for ground approach with their idea to have say a couple lone females approach your actual position that will distract your attention while you are being outflanked.


For sling swivels if the military hardware is gone I would go with Uncle Mike studs and MILSPEC sling swivels and you will never have to worry about either breaking.


In the case of the 308 you could handload a 155gr. Sierra Palma Match bullet to 2750 fps. If you zero your rifle for 300 yards and aim center of a 12” circle a hole will appear either high or low in that circle to about 375 yards.
If you adjust the power of the scope you can probably adjust to so the lower post will deliver perfect shot placement at 600 yards. Thusly you can shoot to 600 yards with scope set to one power setting and only zero the scope one time.
Low noise signature rounds: You can load 170 bullet to 1100 fps and zero the rifle for 150 yards. At 75 yards it will hit 8.42” high, at 100 7.76” high, 125yards 4.97” high, on the money at 150 and 7.24” low at 175 yards and no one will hear you fire several miles away. By the way the 170 at 175 yards still has about 350 ft lbs of delivery.



Bottom line if you pick up a sporterized one for say 250.00, scope and mount would be from 65.00 to ????? and the cost to turn, drill and tap the barrel to .675 for the Weaver 60a base should be maybe 35.00???

If you are thinking about a custom barrel there is another option I can expand on for a heavier barrel application with the 13 twist I touched on above.
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Old 01-16-2012, 10:48 AM
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century arms makes an FAL.

I would try to go for that. i think it is about 500.

I would shoot the guns first though... I wouldn't get a century ak.. I had one they are fun for shooting dirt but for shooting targets they aren't the best thing.

600 yards is way out there. with irons it would be like lining your front sight on a grain of sand.
Old 01-16-2012, 11:00 AM
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This guy is just trolling.
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Old 01-16-2012, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Hummer View Post
First off to get optimum terminal ballistics at 600 yards you are going to have to forget anything under .264 (6.5MM) caliber. If you do not handload and have to buy it you can get halfway decent ammo in enough quantity you are looking at 308/30.06 which is likely to be the most prevalent ammo with good range capability. (NOTE: just because ammo is cheap doesn’t mean you are going to get good performance)


Of those two it would be 308 Win No 1 and 30.06 No 2.
I assume you are talking a single rifle for all around use from small game also useful on folks that need to have their headspace adjusted coming to rip you off or worse.

Farmer John and myself are both long range shooters and we both know the dispersion (accuracy) between different 308 ammo types out there even when fired from an outstandingly accurate rifle is going to be iffy at 600 yards on E silhouette size targets thusly the ability to reload your ammo can allow you to engage targets at longer ranges. Thusly bad ammo in a good barrel is like putting diesel fuel in a gas engine. Your rifle is no better than what you feed it. Couple that with a so-so barrel and still you will not attain good performance.


I cannot stress enough the ability to reload will extend your ability in the field . Think about it, selecting a cartridge fired all the time to 1000+ yards by snipers in Afghanistan is not going to see its full potential in a rifle designed for shorter ranges i.e. having poor sights etc.


I have always been intrigued about a one rifle concept and I have read similar threads on other forums and many have the same or very similar selections but one thing seems to be missing in all the responses along these lines which is at what range will your rifle be zeroed for and how far away could you be effective in hitting a target and how small of a target could you reliably engage with your selection in good light conditions?


You are to be commended to thinking outside the box and recognizing the need to be able to have 600 yard capability. Even though you may never need it, to have it and the ability to use what you have can make all the difference in the world at the right time.


I have read a number of rifle selections and noted most everyone is going for the 223/5.56MM Round or the COMBLOC ammo. Just because it is cheap doesn’t mean it is good. Then again if you do not have the ability to shoot well and have never shot a longer ranges you do not realize the potential you are giving up for such selections.
As Farmer John points out the 7.62X39 is not going to do what you need.


The 5.56 rounds have their highest terminal ballistic performance restricted to 200 yards assuming you are not using a shorter barrel. A full 20” barrel or longer is required to maintain projectile fragmentation to 200 yards and with a 24” barrel you might stretch it to 235 yards. Similar with 7.62X39. 7.62X54 generally has .308 bullets but the bore diameters run .311 so you are giving up a lot to save money. This is not to say 7.62X54 is not a good round but the military combinations are somewhat lacking.


Selection of a rifle for SHTF in all probability would not have a close relation to what the combat distances are for firefights which a smart survivalist is going to avoid unless you are very good at long range and know exactly what your rifle and you are capable of.


The military close range target is the “Dog” or “D” silhouette target is considered to be a prone firer aiming at you and the 5 scoring area is large enough that a wide shot could hit a large prone man. When the military used known distance ranges and the targets were on carriers pasted on cardboard they had a 4 ring is large enough to where you could hit personnel on either side of your intended target and still get a 4 point score. Then the Army did away with KD ranges (a big mistake in my opinion) and went to pop up target systems and just the inner or old 5 scoring area was used.


Only problem is personnel can get scores on these targets by hitting low and knocking up a small stone or a spent bullet and it hit the target and it went down or even worse hitting low and skipping a round up and hitting the target thus just because someonesays they shot a 40 on the range doesn’t necessarily mean a bullet hit the target.


My personnel criteria is the ability to engage and hit a 6” target at 300 yards and a 12” target at 600 yards. This will be with full performance ammo and this can be done with a 308 set up correctly. You have to make your own decision of just how good you want to be but considering you are already thinking 600 then a 12” gun/ammo/shooter combo is required.
I will also utilize cast bullets loaded in the subsonic range for hunting smaller game to help maintain a low profile or if cast bullets do not prove as accurate as desired I will use jacketed bullets of the same weight loaded to under 1100 fps. I live in a rural area and I can hear center fire rifles and shotguns firing from a commercial range over five miles away when the wind is right and for an estimated two miles around at any given time. The longer your barrel with these loads the lower the noise signature.


Both will be handloaded with waterproofed primers and will exhibit about he same noise signature as a 22LR fired from a 18”-20” barrel rifle.


Another problem to be considered is how durable the action you select will be. Think of it like a vehicle.
Would you purchase a vehicle with minimum tread depth tires and head out on a cross country trip with no spare and no jack and dipstick showing black oil below the add oil mark and frayed belts on engine? Obviously you would not so when thinking about a rifle one needs to consider what is the most user friendly system that is known to be able to deliver rounds down range for long periods of time with little or no maintenance.
This automatically eliminates gas operated systems as failure to maintain a gas system will shut you down sooner or later.
There are several actions that can be had that have been sporterized that will allow long life, easy parts replacement with little or ideally no tools that exhibit a positive safety that can be rebuilt in 308 and work fine.
Two of which are the 98 Mauser and the 1903 & A3 Springfields. They are both very rugged and won’t let you down. There are others however and need to be considered on an individual basis.
I am not aware of a factory build gun today that I would trust as much as a one of the above for long life low maintenance highest safety and ease of use.



You can pick up one of the above sporterized for around 200 to 250.00 that will be a good basic platform to work from. Get a spare extractor, striker, striker spring and you are pretty well set for life assuming the barrel is in good shape and these can be found.


There were 98 Mausers made in 30.06 but of course most were made in 8MM and 7MM calibers which are very suitable for 308 conversion.


Barrel length can be critical for long range performance as well as short range with low velocity loads as the noise signature will be much lower with longer barrel.


There are two ways to go about reworking the above rifles . You can alter the original barrel configuration or you can re- barrel with a new barrel. In the case of a rebarrel I would go with a 12 or 13 twist. The factory guns made today I am familiar with have 10 twist which is too fast for cast bullet accuracy in 30 cal. A 13 twist will stabilize a 175 grain bullet to 1000 yards easily.


If you use the issue barrels you can go forward and turn either the 98 or the 03 barrel down to .675 starting about 10” in front of the action. Then have a Weaver 60A sight base mounted on the barrel and install a 2-7X handgun duplex reticle scope there. This allows the retention of the stripper clip feed capability originally designed into these rifles for rapid reloadability.



Why 2-7X scope? At 300 yards a 2X scope cross hairs will generally completely cover a 6” steel disc. At longer range you will need more power to bring out targets of a smaller nature. I would also use Burris Signature Zee Rings with spacer kit to allow the scope (set at the middle of its adjustment range) to be zeroed at 300 yards and not be cranked well off center. Internally adjustable scopes do not like to be cranked to the extreme range of movement as the further you raise it the less windage adjustment you have.


Also a 7x scope will allow you to visually observe approaching personnel to give a looksee of what they might be hiding which could be brought to bear against you. For instance if you have a good lookout point you might just notice a pick up truck stopping a mile up the road and personnel dismounting for ground approach with their idea to have say a couple lone females approach your actual position that will distract your attention while you are being outflanked.


For sling swivels if the military hardware is gone I would go with Uncle Mike studs and MILSPEC sling swivels and you will never have to worry about either breaking.


In the case of the 308 you could handload a 155gr. Sierra Palma Match bullet to 2750 fps. If you zero your rifle for 300 yards and aim center of a 12” circle a hole will appear either high or low in that circle to about 375 yards.
If you adjust the power of the scope you can probably adjust to so the lower post will deliver perfect shot placement at 600 yards. Thusly you can shoot to 600 yards with scope set to one power setting and only zero the scope one time.
Low noise signature rounds: You can load 170 bullet to 1100 fps and zero the rifle for 150 yards. At 75 yards it will hit 8.42” high, at 100 7.76” high, 125yards 4.97” high, on the money at 150 and 7.24” low at 175 yards and no one will hear you fire several miles away. By the way the 170 at 175 yards still has about 350 ft lbs of delivery.



Bottom line if you pick up a sporterized one for say 250.00, scope and mount would be from 65.00 to ????? and the cost to turn, drill and tap the barrel to .675 for the Weaver 60a base should be maybe 35.00???

If you are thinking about a custom barrel there is another option I can expand on for a heavier barrel application with the 13 twist I touched on above.
ehh you can shoot long range with crap ammo hell with a stock smith and wesson mp15 I'm able to hit e type sillouetts with just the shoulders and up exposed all day long with cheap american eagle ammo and a a cog


that said you are right for precision you deffinetly need to put good ammo or hand loads into the rifle to get the most out of it

as well as good glass

and honestly while 500m and under is still almost point and shoot esp with your larger calibers

there are few places to practice at 500m+ and honestly most actually combat engagements are much less distance than that

even though I'm not a fan of ak's for all practical combat use they will shot plenty far for your average engagement the ar will shoot a few hundred m further accuratly but generally its more range than needed

plus most people do not know how to compesate for long range shooting or how to range a target with mil dots and since most do not practice often they would not do well going hey the chinese just invaded ima practice at 1km popping enemies

they will die and quickly at that
Old 01-16-2012, 05:15 PM
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I am not ****ing trolling... Now that this matter is out of the way:

@Sloth I had looked at FALS, and I like them, but they are pretty expensive... $700+.

This video is what inspired me to make this post:
@Hummer, thanks for the long post, it was very informative. So basically your saying I should go the 308 route? With an ak? Then once I get that, I save up and get myself some optics, meanwhile I practice with the iron...

I would never be able to hit 600 yards without optics. And to all the idiots going "why would you need 600 yard shots shtf"? So your basically implying that magically the population will never attempt sniper tactics again after the collapse? Are you ****ing retarded? And what happens *if* a run into a group of hostiles with a sniper? I just grab my sidearm and eat my own bullet?...

Basically, all I wanna do is find a nice rifle for 300-500 dollars that gets along with upgrades that is dependable and can make some nice shots if I need it to. After all, my life very well be depending on it. I don't understand how that is trolling...
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Old 01-16-2012, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soaren View Post
I am not ****ing trolling... Now that this matter is out of the way:

@Sloth I had looked at FALS, and I like them, but they are pretty expensive... $700+.

This video is what inspired me to make this post: AK Sniper Rifle [Sons of Guns] - YouTube

@Hummer, thanks for the long post, it was very informative. So basically your saying I should go the 308 route? With an ak? Then once I get that, I save up and get myself some optics, meanwhile I practice with the iron...

I would never be able to hit 600 yards without optics. And to all the idiots going "why would you need 600 yard shots shtf"? So your basically implying that magically the population will never attempt sniper tactics again after the collapse? Are you ****ing retarded? And what happens *if* a run into a group of hostiles with a sniper? I just grab my sidearm and eat my own bullet?...

Basically, all I wanna do is find a nice rifle for 300-500 dollars that gets along with upgrades that is dependable and can make some nice shots if I need it to. After all, my life very well be depending on it. I don't understand how that is trolling...


you have to understand that those of us here have seen a lot of posts where people are trolling and when we see a large number of contradictions/pattern in a post from previous experience we assume thats why I posted the apology in my original skeptical post.

if your not I am sorry.


that said the biggest thing driving up your over cost of the fire arm in question is your demand for it to be semi automatic many of the other features you want can be had just not within your price and semi


my advice because you are on a limited budget is to invest in a bolt action in a caliber you like you can get something in great condition within your budget


my recommendation if you are wanting to shoot intermediate ranges you might want to look at an old mauser, 1903 springfield or moisan nagant

they are pretty good shooters witht he best in my opinion being 1903/mauser and the moisan comming in last

moisans with iron sights are easily able to shoot 500m with iron sights @ Etype targets

and the price for them is between 100-130 for moisans 250-300 for amusers and about 400-600

only down side for those rifles is it is hard to mount optics on the rifles as they require side mount scope mounts wich can be expensive.

other rifles for your consideration could be remington 700 or savage rifles there abundant and you can find them used at gunshots much more commonly than you would more specialized gear so they can be gotten cheaper.



calibers I would recommend you look into

.270
.308/7.62x51
.30-06
8mm mauser
7.62x54R
.223/5.56

another option is you could go with lever actions you can shoot our to about 200m with a 30-30 pretty consistently and new you can pick up a marlin 336 for $300 ish which will leave you more money to spend on reloading supplies or bullets
Old 01-16-2012, 05:51 PM
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Turd Fergason Turd Fergason is offline
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Well Soaren, if your taking advice from Will @ Tub o guns, you don't know enough to own a BB gun. There are no magic guns, one gun to rule them all just doesn't exist. Do some research and stop watching reality TV, or better yet join the military live the dream. POSER.
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Old 01-16-2012, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Turd Fergason View Post
Well Soaren, if your taking advice from Will @ Tub o guns, you don't know enough to own a BB gun. There are no magic guns, one gun to rule them all just doesn't exist. Do some research and stop watching reality TV, or better yet join the military live the dream. POSER.
being he has come here and indicated he is not trolling most don't bother to clarify there posts after there OP

there is no reason to make fun or or call names there lots of people here who have varying degrees of knowledge when it comes to firearms and other things and being mis informed poorly informed or just ignorant in any given topic does not warrant ridicule

everyone has to start somewhere so lets try to help him out without blatant insults
Old 01-16-2012, 06:12 PM
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What's limiting you is your price range

For a good, reliable weapon capable of 600yd ranges that's semi-auto, you will need to save a bit more money!

The 600yd range requires a bit more barrel than those meant for CQB

A Tanker Garand might fill your requirements but you'll be a few dollars short
Old 01-16-2012, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soaren View Post
I am not ****ing trolling... Now that this matter is out of the way:

@Sloth I had looked at FALS, and I like them, but they are pretty expensive... $700+.

This video is what inspired me to make this post: AK Sniper Rifle [Sons of Guns] - YouTube

@Hummer, thanks for the long post, it was very informative. So basically your saying I should go the 308 route? With an ak? Then once I get that, I save up and get myself some optics, meanwhile I practice with the iron...

I would never be able to hit 600 yards without optics. And to all the idiots going "why would you need 600 yard shots shtf"? So your basically implying that magically the population will never attempt sniper tactics again after the collapse? Are you ****ing retarded? And what happens *if* a run into a group of hostiles with a sniper? I just grab my sidearm and eat my own bullet?...

Basically, all I wanna do is find a nice rifle for 300-500 dollars that gets along with upgrades that is dependable and can make some nice shots if I need it to. After all, my life very well be depending on it. I don't understand how that is trolling...
I would just save up long enough to get a decent rifle.
personally I can't shoot the AK well past 50 yards :-/

that being said you can always look into building an AR.

order a parts kit from del-ton then a receiver and assemble.
about 500 for the kit then 100 bucks for the receiver

im not a fan of the round but maybe that would be an option for you
Old 01-16-2012, 06:32 PM
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i think your asking too much out of a 3-500 dollar rifle, that isnt much to spend. Most semi auto rifles that are actually capable of consistently hitting a man sized target at 600 yards are good quality AR and those are anywhere from 800-1200 for a decent one, yes you could cheap out and buy a 600 dollar ar but there is a reason it is a 600 dollar ar, and remember in a gun you get what you pay for. i think the ultimate gun that you are looking for is a socom M1A it has a 16 inch barrel with quad rails, shoots a .308 and is actually a rifle tha tis designed to make shots at that long distance as well as be a close in battle rifle, but then again this rifle is 2 grand where im from, but like i said you get what you pay for if you only want to buy one rifle your going to have to spend the money or risk depending your life on an inferior weapon because you dont want to wait to save up.

i myself have a sig 556 SWAT version it wasnt cheap i got mine for a 1000 because i have a good relationship with my local gun dealer but taht isnt typical that is a 1300-1500 dollar rifle but i think that it would be wise to wait and save and buy something worth while rather then just buy something that isnt quite what your looking for
Old 01-16-2012, 06:34 PM
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Sweeper80 Sweeper80 is online now
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Soaren-

A testament or two to the lowly Mosin/Nagant $100 surplus rifles:

Simo Haya, known as "The White Death"
http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com...imo-hayh/20951

Vasily Zatzev, the man that inspired the movie "Enemy at the Gates"
http://exequy.wordpress.com/2011/08/...evich-zaytsev/

Both made amazing shots during the Winter's War and WWII with the Mosin/Nagant, examples of the same rifles can be found at Cabela's regularly on sale for $79.95, include the Mosin and a cheap Century Arms SKS and you've got two guns for the price of one.......
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