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Old 01-10-2012, 03:20 PM
wiswash wiswash is offline
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Default What power scope for up to 300 yard shots



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Does anyone shoot 300 yards with consistent small groups? What scope power is helpful for hitting small groups at 300 yards? Here is why I ask. With my 3006 I can hit 2 in. groups at 100 yards using 4 power scope. Now that I want to do open range hunting I want to be confiedent out to 300 yds thus making 200 - 250 yard shots a high probability kill. I dont think the 3-9X variable power scopes are going to help me here. I sighted my friends rifle at 200 yds with the 3-9X and even at a bench rest I dont hold the rifle seady enough for good grouping. Should I try a 12 x scope? I wouold like to get 2 inch groups at 250 yards. Thanks
Old 01-10-2012, 03:49 PM
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ok for you to get 2 inch groups at 250 yards....you would have to be able to shoot between .5 to .75 inch groups at 100 yards....now every part of that gun, including the shoot has to be in working in perfect unison to achive that....the question is do you really need to....

consider that a antelope has 8 inch kill zone and deer around 12 inches....

so that means since you shoot 2" group at 100 yards, at 300 hundred you are shooting 6 inch groups and that is with in the kill zone of your targets.

the 12x scope will help you see clearer and can help with the groups...

I see no reason your current setup will not work as is, as long as you do your part.


Good luck..
Old 01-10-2012, 04:08 PM
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3-9 is way more than enough for measly 300yards.

The magnification is not the issue.
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Old 01-10-2012, 05:39 PM
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You will find that the scope is not what holds the rifle steady. A higher power scope generally only tells you why you are missing the target.

Of late we have decided that "long range" is longer than it once was. 300+ yard shots with the same rifles and ammo we use now were considered irresponsible ten years ago. Attitudes change but ability does not. If you can not hold at 300 yards do not shoot at 300 yards.

You are not alone, most people can't. Most who say they can, can't!

I spent the whole day at the range today, watching people not hit the target at 200 yards. I am sure their 300 yard performance would have been equqilly entertaining.
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Old 01-10-2012, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wiswash View Post
Does anyone shoot 300 yards with consistent small groups? What scope power is helpful for hitting small groups at 300 yards? Here is why I ask. With my 3006 I can hit 2 in. groups at 100 yards using 4 power scope. Now that I want to do open range hunting I want to be confiedent out to 300 yds thus making 200 - 250 yard shots a high probability kill. I dont think the 3-9X variable power scopes are going to help me here. I sighted my friends rifle at 200 yds with the 3-9X and even at a bench rest I dont hold the rifle seady enough for good grouping. Should I try a 12 x scope? I wouold like to get 2 inch groups at 250 yards. Thanks
What do you consider a small group?
If you are hitting 2 inches at 100 you will be at 6 inches at 300 that is simple math.
The question is is it the rifle or the shooter. A bad shooter may do better with a good rifle but a great shot can never make a bad rifle do better than it can do.
For one go to a .270, or a .260. Generally Rifle barrels are about the same diameter just the bore changes until you get into real big bores. Even then it does not change proportionally. If you look at most .223 rifles one thing you will notice is the barrel has quite abit of material left after they make the bore, now look at a 30 cal rifle AH HA less material. Now unless you make a 30 cal rifle heavier you don't get a thicker barrel, thus a .223 is basically more accurate than a .3006 or .308. because you are shooting a lighter round out of a naturally heavier barrel. I know there is going to be a bunch of hating on me over that last statement but it is a basic fact fellas, you have to typically get a heavier barrel to get a .30 cal to have less barrel whip.
This is one of the reasons why AR's seem more out of the box accurate then AK's they have more material left when the barrel is bored out.
Now if you look at the rounds smaller than 3006, and 308 rounds like the .270 and .260 you start getting not only flatter performance, you get a reasonably heavy bullet, and you also don't have to make the rifle weigh 10 lbs to get it to settle down.
I don't think the scope is your problem a good shot can make a good enough group with iron sights.
Variable power scopes have a ton of problems you have to spend buku bucks to start getting rid of all the mechanical problems that are created by making a variable power scope. You are better off with a fixed power if accuracy is the issue.
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Old 01-10-2012, 06:36 PM
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if you have a load that doesn't agree with said fire arm you wont hit crap, no matter how good the gun is.
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Old 01-10-2012, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Brightblade View Post
if you have a load that doesn't agree with said fire arm you wont hit crap, no matter how good the gun is.
Another good point finding the what the rifle likes
Old 01-10-2012, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forster View Post
3-9 is way more than enough for measly 300yards.

The magnification is not the issue.
X2 , 9X not enough for 300yds? We used the fixed 10X M3A scope in the Army hitting about a 10-12" "kill area" on a human center mass target from 500-700yds with regularity. It's not easy, but a good prone position will help you steady yourself. Make sure the scope is focused for clearity. I think a 3-9x should work fine unless you have really crappy optics, bad glass, or a super tiny objective lens
Old 01-10-2012, 06:53 PM
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More than enough
Old 01-10-2012, 07:01 PM
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Yoga would help more than a bigger scope
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Old 01-10-2012, 07:11 PM
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I appreciate all your excellent points. I am probably a shakey dude at the 200 yard + range. So I will practice more shooting, study my limitations and work within. You all agree the 3-9x is more than adequate at 300 yds. I will play with different bullet weights and see how that affects my shooting. More than that I have got some personal shooting habits to work on.
Old 01-10-2012, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cibholder03 View Post
X2 , 9X not enough for 300yds? We used the fixed 10X M3A scope in the Army hitting about a 10-12" "kill area" on a human center mass target from 500-700yds with regularity. It's not easy, but a good prone position will help you steady yourself. Make sure the scope is focused for clearity. I think a 3-9x should work fine unless you have really crappy optics, bad glass, or a super tiny objective lens
Marines do that with iron sites, now they are using a fixed power X4 ACOG
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Old 01-10-2012, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimnan88 View Post
Another good point finding the what the rifle likes
All I use for a scope on my Trifecta is a Nikon Model 6469 variable 4.5 to 14 power. They run $300.00 bucks on average.

If you want precision Google "ladder loading" if you load your own.

You basically pick a projectile and powder, Like lets say a Sierra 180g bullet and IMR4350. If you want to get that sub MOA group these bullets have to have Identical to each other, bearing surfaces, and weights. The Game Kings are not to consistent, and accuracy is all about consistency. Even the Match Kings have inconstancy in bearing surfaces.

Load 15 or more shells progressively. Example, 50.0. 50.3 50.6 50.9. An on to what ever. don't use those specific numbers, go off of data in a load book and make its recommended load your middle number. Shoot them one by one at 300 to 400 yards, mark every shot, you are looking for the highest two or three shots grouped together, thats the top of the harmonic wave for your rifle with that load. Refine the powder charge from that point.

Load testing like this you can use any bullet/powder combination as long as the burn rate is good for the round weight, and the twist rate is good for the bullet. It takes a lot more than just good glass for great accuracy, but you need good glass to.

My 30-06 Trifecta with her pet load has done 3 to 3.5 inches at 400 yards fairly consistently. The Gent I took her to however knew how to build a gun, I am convinced the rifle could make a jagged hole at 400 yards, and I am the weak link. I also accomplish this with hours of measuring every aspect of my loads.

http://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html

Here is a link, glad I looked it up to. I never thought to Sharpie the bullets to color code test load holes.
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Old 01-10-2012, 09:26 PM
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I'm kinda concerned when you mention that you could not hold the rifle with the 3-9x scope steady enough at long range. Are you shooting over sand bags on a heavy bench? Or are you trying to hold the rifle with your arms on the bench, or perhaps prone?

Suggestions:
Down load the ammo to 165 grain at 2600 f/s.
Wear great ear muffs.
Practice using full bags and a solid bench, let the bags hold the rifle.
Concentrate on trigger control.
Shoot at 100 yds until you can consistantly get a 1" group and an occasional bragging group of 3/4".
Then load the ammo to full power, upgrade the scope, and extend the range.
I would shoot for keeping ten rounds in a paper plate at 600 yds.

A nice clear 4x scope is enough magnification to do the job at 300 yds, but I prefer a 2.5-8x up to 4-12x.
Old 01-10-2012, 09:45 PM
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It really depends on how small your target is. For instance I have a rubber stamp that prints a 2" solid black round spot and it takes all 9x to bring it out at 300 yards and still it is hard because the cross hairs tend to cover the dot up on lower power scopes.

If you have fine cross hairs and 15X you can just put them in the dot at 300 and see four quadrants. With large target it is much easier. For instance at 300 I have 6" steel discs and my 2X scope completely cover the disc at 300.
Old 01-10-2012, 09:50 PM
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This will work...

http://www.leapers.com/prod_detail.p...atus=&mtrack=m
Old 01-11-2012, 05:40 AM
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i have a 3x9 - 40

shot a coors light at 250 yards first shot with a .30-06

just make sure it is fog proof & shockproof. mine is a $150 nikon.
when you sight it in don't be cheap on ammo and make sure you have a good rest.



^trophy
Old 01-11-2012, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wiswash View Post
Does anyone shoot 300 yards with consistent small groups? What scope power is helpful for hitting small groups at 300 yards? Here is why I ask. With my 3006 I can hit 2 in. groups at 100 yards using 4 power scope. Now that I want to do open range hunting I want to be confiedent out to 300 yds thus making 200 - 250 yard shots a high probability kill. I dont think the 3-9X variable power scopes are going to help me here. I sighted my friends rifle at 200 yds with the 3-9X and even at a bench rest I dont hold the rifle seady enough for good grouping. Should I try a 12 x scope? I wouold like to get 2 inch groups at 250 yards. Thanks
Scope's power is not your problem.
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Old 01-11-2012, 06:34 AM
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I believe the scope you're using now may be an issue. Not just for power issues, but reticle/crosshair issues.

Try getting an optic with a very fine reticle, or even a post-style reticle to help decrease target obstruction. At 200 yards, your crosshairs may cover a 3'' circle. That leaves all sorts of room for error in grouping. With fine crosshairs (or post-style reticles), you may only cover 1.5 or 2 inches at 200 yards, making it easier to determine center of target.

An example of a post-style reticle would be the Trijicon accupoint. Perhaps more expensive than what you want/need, but other similar platforms can be found for cheaper.
Old 01-11-2012, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcliffhanger View Post
A higher power scope generally only tells you why you are missing the target.
AMEN

If you want tighter groups at long range, the scope is the smallest part of the equation. A zeroed scope just shows you where the barrel is aimed, but there's a lot that happens between target acquisition and bullet impact.

For a while I had a self-appointed shooting coach, who is Double Distinguished, internationally ranked, former Navy shooting team, former BP shooting team. My groups tightened up drastically with his advice, and it all came down to no caffeine, plenty of rest, exercise, good diet and hydration. Less staring at screens that dried the eyeballs out. Then the fundamentals of trigger control, sight alignment, sight picture, and breathing. Then lots of rounds down range with the weapon (no optics) to increase familiarity. Then load development and dope development, understanding wind, etc. Got to where I could feel the miss, tell you why, and tell you where the bullet went even if I didn't see the hit. From there you just get faster at acquiring targets, which is really where the scope comes in.
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