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Any input on 7mm and 8mm?

20K views 23 replies 20 participants last post by  9mmMike 
#1 ·
Ok. I have posted a thread here and there. I have used that search function, to no avail. Im now considering my MBR. I posted a few days back about the Mosin Nagant's at the local pawn shop. Im indifferent now that I think about it. They are really unique in their history, that ammo seems reasonable, but my major concern is the age OF the weapon and everyone seems to agree that they need to be cleaned immediately after each use. Regardless if you fire 1 round or 100. To me, in a SHTF situation, that might be a hindrance.

So ive been thinking something a little more modern. As far as rifles go. Maybe a .308 or 30-06. But I noticed that my local pawn shop seems to have several 7mm and 8mm rifles as well.

Anyone have any input with the 7mm or 8mm? Im really curious about this. I have this gut feeling though that .308 or 30-06 IS the smarter way to go. Im trying to look at this from all reasonable angles.
 
#2 ·
I would go .308 or 30-06 just for availability and preferably a common type of weapon if you depend on it for everything.

As far as the nostalic side of having those firearms, go for it.

If you reload, especially the 7MM, has a fine array of bullet types for anything you can do. 8MM, not so much

Even moreso with the .30 bullet types, more types and weights than any other caliber. Brass is a lot more common too

I guess it can boil down to what exactly are your plans with the rifle?
 
#5 ·
The 8MM Mauser is one mean customer. Ton's of ammo around. It makes the Mosin's look like a pile of crap in my opinion. The 7mm would be scarce. Neither rifles I can assure u during world war 2 were cleaned every time they were shot. That wouldn't concern me, It's not an AR.
 
#6 ·
The 8mm mauser is as old as the mosin, but much better made. If you compare them side by side, the choice is obvious. Most of the 8mm ammo out there is corrosive surplus just like the mosin and dirt cheap. A well stocked hunting store will have some new manufacture 8mm ammo. That said, the availability and commonality of ..308 or 30-06 is the way to go if you arent price shopping.
 
#7 ·
If you get one of the 7mm or 8mm have it checked out first. A friend of mine bought one and about 1000 rnds of ammo and when he went to shoot it it wouldnt fire. So off to the gunsmith ended up it was a parts gun and the head spacing wasnt right. It messed somthing up dont know what but it would take a new barrel to get it right. So he just gad the new barrel put on in 30-06 and now he has a sporter 98 in 30-06 and a 1000 rnds of 8mm ammo. So always. Check for matching num and before you dump a ton of money in ammo and such have it checked out. Some of them 98,96 was brought back and sporterized with new barrels but thats it. So you may find a old 98 thats just had barrel swap and bolt tuned in the 30-06 but still look like it did when it came over in some army guys ruck. Im in Mo. And iys kinda hard to get 7mm & 8mm ammo so id stay with the 308 & 30-06
 
#8 ·
I appreciate everyones input. My main goal for the rifle is multi-purpose. Potential game and "urban hunting", if it comes down to it, if you know what I mean?

Currently my arsenal includes:

Kel-tec 9mm subcompact.. (wife loves it)
Mossberg 88 12 gauge
Mossberg 702 .22

Im just trying to round out the package. i realize each weapon has it pros and cons. I figured as much about the availability of the 7mm and 8mm. I know there is a lot of debate. I kinda agree on the side of get what you can NOW. Anyways, I appreciate it.
 
#9 ·
If you reload, can make 8mm brass out of 30-06 cases and you can use 308 brass in a pinch, although the brass would be a lot shorter than the standard 8mm mauser case. If you cast bullets and use 17 or 18 grains of 2400, ammo availability should not be a big problem if supply chains are broken and you stock up on lead, powder and primers.
 
#11 ·
Ya id just go to wallyworld and spend the 300bucks and get a savage axis or stevens 200 even the mossburge 100. Get it in either the 308 or 30-06. Im a big fan of the 30-06 and dont think you can get a better caliber. But if its going to be your main rifle and you dont have other rifles id get the 308. I have 2- 30-06s but i also reload and i have 3-223 & 2-7.63x39. As main cqbs and mbrs. The 308 is easier to get mil rnds for and is almost the equil of the 30-06 out to a distance. Also i hear them axis and 200 are good shooters. So acc shouldnt be a problem. My self im thinking about a 200 in a 308. Good thing about the 200 over the axis is you can improve on them. Like barrel swops and things of that nature.
 
#12 ·
I would say .308

It is accurate and hard hitting. Still being produced by different countries military's
and every hunting store in the country that sells ammo is probably going to stock it.

since a lot of hunting stores sell .308 more than other calibers like 5.56, 7.62x39 . I would think that it would be easier to get. But I guess it depends on the situation.


I would highly suggest an m1a if you decide to get a .308.

The first time I shot it long range I hit a milk jug at 250 yards. yesterday I hit one at 175 yards standing and using a tree as a rest.
 
#13 ·
I recommend you buy a commercial rifle in 270, 308, or 30-06 or a large ring Mauser in 7mm or 8mm. Consider learning to reload your own ammo.

These calibers all have enough muzzle velocity and accuracy for long range shooting, all handle heavy bullets well, and it is easy to purchase or hand load non-corrosive soft pointed ammo that will transfer energy to the target.

While my personal favorites are 270 and 308 win, they all use brass with the same base and rim diameter. So even if you do need to replace the barrel, you can easily and cheaply do so.
 
#14 ·
with the mosin......take that nifty little bottle with two spigots that comes with it. fill one side with oil and the other with windex. youd probably have a cleaning rod and patches with you for what ever rifle you happen to have.so that would solve that issue.
as for the mausers, not all are chorme lined. pretty much all the surplus out there is corrosive, old german austrian yugo romanian etc. unless your buying commercial. so in short lets say with a yugo 48 or 24/47 it suffers from the same corrosion problems as the mosin. dont let that be a factor in your choice of firearm. the corrosion with windex would eliminate that problem. (just a side bar hoppes cleaner says it take care of corrosive primers as well.) but really its not instant, a few hour wont hurt any thing. letting it sit over night might be a different story.
as for which to choose from, tough call. theres alot more 8mm than 7mm on the market. most of the rifle in 7mm (old at least) were military rifles may on a mauser or mauser inspired platform. so economically i would go 8mm just for the avalibility and lower cost.
as far as .308 and 30.06 those are good but theres a bit of difference in cost. if you want to old military rifle with dirt cheap ammo, i would go mosin or mauser. if you wanted some thing pretty spot on for accuracy and the like i would go 30.06
 
#15 ·
. But I noticed that my local pawn shop seems to have several 7mm and 8mm rifles as well.
When you see alot of something for sale, that is a bad sign, that means people do not want it.

I have a remington model 700 in 280/7mm express. Ammo is expensive and difficult to find. But, it is very effective on whitetail deer.

If you are looking for something in a medium sized caliber, I suggest you go with something that is going to be easy to find ammo for - 270, 308 and the 30-06.

Keep in mind that the '06 is the largest caliber that most people can shoot accurately. The recoil is the main reason why I do not suggest the '06 unless you need that much firepower.

for the majority of the people living in the lower 48 states, you should be able to take just about anything you want with either a 270 or a 308. The exception is moose, elk and bear.

As for a rifle, its going to be difficult to beat a remington model 700. If you want a 308 semi-auto, there is the remington woodsmaster 750 semi-auto rifle.

If you want something a little more military, there is the M1A, PTR-91 and the FN/FAL.

The PTR probably has the lowest cost of ownership, magazines are only about $2 each, sometimes $1 each. Now compare that to the $15 - $20 for a FN/FAL magazine.

If you have friends that you make plans with, what kind of rifles do they have? One of the problems that my friends and family are in, we have too many different rifles and calibers. We have 30-30, 308, 270, 280 and the 30-06. Stockpiling and keeping track or several different types of calibers can get confusing.

A post on my blog - http://www.survivalboards.com/2010-12-23/stockpiling-too-many-types-of-survival-ammunition/

Related forum thread- http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=155027
 
#16 ·
I really want to say thank you to everyone for their input.

When you see alot of something for sale, that is a bad sign, that means people do not want it.
That was what I was thinking. I was looking around the shop, and man oh man, they have A LOT of weapons, but it seemed like a LOT of those were 7mm and 8mm. You could practically trip over them. Thats also when I spotted the Mosin Nagants.

I think I would be well vested to invest in a .308. Powerful, plentiful, and reasonably priced ammo. Personally I don't believe in buying a weapon that costs a fortune to run. Then I will never practice and it might as well become a club. An expensive club at that. Who wants that? No, I think my best bet would be the .308.

But secretly I still think the Mosin's are super cool.:D:
 
#17 ·
My first choice would be something in .308 , followed VERY closely by something in .30-06 . That being said , I have a Yugo 48 in 8mm that shoots as well as I do out to 400 yards or so . I use S&B ammo at 219.00$ per 200 rounds from Cabellas . The Mauser weighs a lot and recoils a lot , but for 150.00$ from Big 5 sports its a fantastic weapon that can fulfill many jobs . I feel it is a true SHTF or TEOTWAWKI weapon , as long as you have ammo for it .
 
#18 ·
I have both the 7 and 8mm Mausers.

There is nothing you can't take down with either, (the 7mm needs a bit more care with bullet placement on the big stuff) and they are battle proven the world over.

The lack of "interest" is in part because of the cheap Nagant's that are on the same shelves. When you can pay $100 for a 80 year old rifle or $200 for another 80 year old rifle, which are you going to get.

The Mausers were and are a "hunting" rifle. They just got used for hunting men as well as critters. And to this day, dangerous game hunters choose the Mauser action over others because of it's reliability and ease of operation.

I can load for them inexpensively, lead bullets work fine in them, and they're a lot less "gangly" than the Nagant rifle. And if it truly all falls down and I run out of 8mm cases, I can run a .30-06 reamer into the 8mm and make it into an 8mm-06 and keep right on shooting. To load the Mauser's cheaply look into the Lee Loader's and for a few bucks you can stuff your own and not be dependent on foreign manufacturers.

My preference for the Mauser comes from years of field use, both in military garb and sporting rifles. My latest project is an old 80 y.o. burned out Turk that's getting rebarreled for .308 and "scout'ed" out.

The Nagant's are okay rifles, but nothing special.
The Mauser's are good rifles that can be something special.

And with modern ammo and powders, you can put off cleaning quite a while. Unlike so much of the surplus and junk ammo that's available for the Russian chambered weapons.
 
#20 ·
Having been a career professional in the weapons testing business for the gov't I gained lots of practical experience in handguns and rifles especially. If I was going to list criteria I would consider:

1. was it a main battle rifle in anyone's army? If so that is a plus.

2. is it a caliber and good quality ammo is available for? by good quality is it reliable and is it accurate and is it available.
By and large the NATO requirement for ammunition quality cannot be touched thusly 308 would be the round of choice.

3. Mauser actions are good rugged actions unless you are gonna be using it at like -40 below zero where they had a history of catastrophic failures during WW2 in Army Group North on the Eastern Front. The Mosins faired much better in sub zero cold that 98s per German General Officer's opinion written for US forces after the war.

4. Parts availability and replaceability without or with minimal tooling. This is where the Mauser and Springfield actions excel. You can carry a spare striker (firing pin) extractorand striker spring in buttstock hollowed out which are the main things likely to fail and all can be replaced in the field with no tools.

5. While the Mosin was a good rifle you must remember the Russian infantry prior to human wave assaults were issued a rifle and five rounds or just five rounds and told to pick one up a casualty had no longer need for.

6. Gas operated weapon systems are prone to high maintenance procedures and have to have ordnance repair capability near the front to keep them going. Gas operated systems must be fed a specific diet and are generally engineered for a particular bullet weight loaded to give a specific pressure at the gas port that has enough gas to operate the action but not overpressure the gas system and wreck the rifle. For instance if you load a M1A with 150 through 173 grain bullet you will be pretty safe insofar as the port pressure range is concerned however if you move on to 180, 185 or 190 grain bullets the port pressures will be elevated causing a over drive of the mechanism. I have heard of several cases of guys breaking the rear of the receivers of M1 and M1A rifles.

7. Stay away from those systems known to give high failure rates such as the Pattern 14 Enfield in 303 as they were notorius for catastrophic barrel failures. Under no circumstances should a Patter 14 be opened up for 300 Win Mag etc.
It is not unknown for personnel to have fingers amputated by catastrophic barrel failures from over pressuring these barrels with the metallurgical problems.

8. As a general rule the sight systems on US fielded weapons are adjustable by the operator. The 98, Mosin, Pattern 14, 1917 Enfield, Jap Arisakas, Carcanos etc have a factory adjust sight system and you are reduced for hold offs to attain center hits at any range as the sights do not adjust readily or at all. I once read the Soviet Army has designated personnel to sight in all should fired rifles in a unit. He fires and the shot is observed by an officer and the officer directs the sight adjustments. Thusly the odds of two guys shooting a rifle the same with an unmovable zero point if unlikely. Obviously snipers are allowed to adjust their rifles but by and large the grunts have to take what they are given.

9. The 7.62 NATO ammo if obtained in sealed containers that have never been opened have an estimated shelf life of a minimum of 125 years. As well it is not corrosive.

10. Reliable ammo can have corrosive primers however you can also rely on it to totally destroy the potential accuracy of a good barrel utilized without TLC. I have seen SKS rifles with chrome bores pitted to hell and gone from the comblock ammo they eat. I once bought a case of 8MM German Army pre war production ammo. There was 1500 rounds of it and I shot about 800 rounds and had two misfires. It was not particularly accurate.

Well with all these potential failures what would I use?

1903 or 1903A3 Springfield action rifle chambered in 7.62 NATO with stainless steel barrel and laminated replacement stock would be my choice. It would be a pinned stock, bedded with Marinetex Black about 1" in front of action and free floated with 1/8" clearance the remainer of the stock channel.

Fire Control (sight system). If you have a Springfield fitted with a No 5 contour barrel have the gunsmith turn the barrel down to .800" ten inches in front of the action and maintain that dimension almost to the muzzle. Yes it will be heavier than a featherweight but then again if you take a hard fall tor the rifle sees a bad time you will be far less likely to bend a barrel.

At the start of the .800" dimension mount a Weaver 92A sight base and get a pistol scope or Scout Scope or even a red dot scope with small dot and mount it there. This allows you to retain the stripper clip reload capability of the 03 action which receiver mounting a scope totally destroys. Mounting a scope thusly will give you at most a six shot rifle where forward mounting of the scope will give you sustained fire capability of many rounds with a finer point of aim.

We are seeing rifles these days with detachable box mags. I have examined some of these and by and large they are delicate and are likely to sustain damage if dropped be it in the rifle or not. If you select one of these you better fork about a couple of hundred more for extra mags which run about 50.00 each from what I see.

Iron sights are acceptable for younger guys but when you hit 35 your capability with iron sights deteriorates quickly with most folks as their eyes cannot accomodate the front sight and the target at the same quality they could at a younger age.

One might wish to make the point that one does not engage targets beyond 100 yards and I have talked with a number of folks who are of the opinion a 200 yard shot is a miracle hit. By and large the vast majority of gun lovers do not take advantage of NRA Highpower Competition and learn to utilize their rifle and to learn it's maximum potential and what a trained rifleman can do.

Barrel length: I would not have it shorter than 20"-22" as the shorter the barrel the more potential velocity loss, the louder the muzzle blast and the flash signature from the muzzle is much higher which is a big negative in low light conditions or darkness. You might as well light up a Coleman double mantle lantern and place it next to you as there are some propellants that produce awesome if not beautiful fire balls at night. Those of you that like the AK74, go out and shoot one in the dark and take a camera with you and photograph the event.

Also have the muzzle turned to .752 for last two inches of barrel. Go to Lowes and get black chair end caps for 3/4" chair legs (4 pack) and use them as muzzle caps. In emergency don't even worry about removing it. Just shoot it and have another for spare. This will protect the muzzle damage and being jammed with mud. I would also have gunsmith do a 11 deg target crown on it.

Counter arguement: Scopes can be delicate and fail. True but you can carry a spare pre zeroed pistol scope with mounts in a 2" piece of PVC water pipe with a cap one one end and clean out on the other so it can be removed and placed on the rifle in short order.

Potential accuracy of the system is paramount. Military acceptance accuracy for M16 family is 4.5" at 100 yards and in my opinion is extremely poor. The acceptance accuracy on the Springfield was 3" at 100 yards and basically is the most accurate production rifle we ever fielded. A set up as described above should with handload ammo deliver 1.5" or less at 100 yards. Production ammo will probably give 3" ranges as would NATO battle packaging. It has a requirement of around 20" at 600 yards from a ACCURACY BARREL which is a much better quality barrel than a battle rifle tube.

Sling swivels: Get Uncle Mike's sling studs mounted in stock first off. I would mount two on forearm about four inches apart so a bipod can be utilized with it. I would mount the other stud about one inch forward of the buttplate on the side of the stock at mid point depending on whether you are right or left hand shooter. This will allow the rifle to be carried muzzle down with side of stock close to the shoulder so as to not hang on underbrush. Also get Uncle Mikes MILSPEC sling swivels as they are extremely tough.

This combo will not necessarily be the sexiest thing in the parade but if you work with it you will be dangerous to 600 yards and beyond.

There is something else that can be done with such a set up. You can cast your own 30 cal bullets, load them to 1050 FPS range and if your barrel is long enough it will not be much louder than a 22 LR with little or no flash signature. Thusly if such is desired I would change the barrel contour to a Palma Contour and get a 28" barrel.

Lets talk about barrel twist rates. Many guys do not fully understand twist rates beyond pronouncing the term but know the newer rifles have fast twist rates which is true thus they quote the need for a fast twist to stabilize the bullets.

For instance the AR family needs a faster twist rate to stabilize the heavier bullets which the match shooters utilize. As well those 5.56MM weapons likely to fire M856 (SS110) tracer need 7" twist at low temp to stabilize the longer tracer bullet. On the other hand a 308 with 14" twist will stabilize a 168 gr. bullet and shoot well to 1000 yards. If you are going to use 175, 180, 185 or 190 gr bullets in 308 a 12" twist will work just fine. All the Winchester Mod 70 Palma Match rifles were 12" twist. On the other end of the spectrum is the 30BR round which is a superb bench rest quality round and they are made up in 16" twist range barrels and they shoot 115 to 125 gr. bullets.

Another consideration lets say you want to build a rifle that will last you say 20 years of hard shooting with the same barrel. If you plan right this can be done. Assuming you clean your barrel quickly after firing, stay away from steel jacket ammo and just apply basic TLC you can make a barrel last many years.

How would this be done? As this thread asks for input on 7MM this is where the 7MM will shine if done correctly. First thing you get the 03 Springfield chambered in 7MM Mauser and you shoot it say 2500 rounds, take the barrel off cut off the threads, rethread it and rechamber in 7MM Mauser again. You can do this about five times with the suggested barrel contours outlined above. Finally you can chamber it for 280 Remington and continue to fire.

A study has been conducted and determined that muzzle wear from escaping gases deterriorates muzzles and burns them away at approximatley 1/2 the rate the throat is worn and gives a funnel effect at the muzzle which deterriorates accuracy. Thusly if the throat erosion gage shows 1 ring of movement which is .100" then you need to set back the muzzle and cut it back about .050" to keep it full size.

Some may have cruised the CMP website. They sell a excellent little muzzle gage for selecting good shooting surplus rifles in 30 cal. The further the gage goes in the muzzle below the zero point the more the groups are likely to open.
 
#22 ·
I'd like to know more about the 7mm and 8mm you saw. I am assuming the 8mm is an 8mm Mauser. I have a Yugo M48 with a scout scope and several crates of 8x57. Gun is accurate and well made. I have a K98 and while I love the furniture better than on my M48, it's barrel was in poor shape. I do have a 98/29 but is is a range gun. 8mm is still available cheap and while I have several thousand rounds I plan on reloading for hunting applications. I have been buying S&B, Wolf Gold and Georgia Arms loaded ammo to shoot and save the brass.

I had a Nagant MN38. Cool little rifle but not in the same league fit, finish and accuracy of my Yugo M48. But since this is your first rifle and it is dedicated as an MBR, not hunting, I'd go MN44. Order lots of surplus ammo and call it a day. I wish I hadn't sold my MN38.
 
#24 ·
I have had several 8mm, great shooting, accurate and have not seen issues even with corrosive primer ammo as long as you clean the gun after shooting it. I get 1.5 inch groups at 100 yards with my 3X9 scope using a bipod.

Mine was the small ring Yugo, not very collectable so I had some fun with it.

 
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