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Default Hebrew Roots Movement – Believers are Grafted Into and Become Israel? Um . . . No.



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Have you been told that you should be observing Mosaic Covenant Law because as a believer you are 'Grafted into Israel'? The following post examines that belief in light of actual olive tree grafting practices and other Scripture metaphors depicting who we are in Christ.

Hebrew Roots Movement – Believers are Grafted Into and Become Israel? Um . . . No.

There is a belief in the Hebrew Roots/Messianic/Netzarim movements that when one believes on Yeshua (Jesus Christ) that they become grafted into the ‘tree of Israel’, actually becoming Israel, obligating those believers to observe Israel’s Mosaic Covenant Law. There are also those who think that if one believes on Messiah, it’s actually because God has drawn them as a member of the ‘Lost 10 Tribes of Israel’ and that they have been part of natural Israel all along, they just haven’t realized it yet! (See “Ephraimites” on the Glossary A-F page for more information and resources regarding this belief.)

Law ‘keepers’ use passages in Romans 11 and Ephesians 2 along with a smattering of Old Testament verses regarding the sojourner with Israel to support the view that all believers actually become Israel by being grafted into the olive tree and that believers, by becoming part of the “commonwealth of Israel” actually change into Israel. These same people will go on to lament about how Christians are the ones who believe in replacement theology!

Someone on a forum posted this question about the issue (this thread has already been culled at Tree of Liberty’s Seminary Forum, so no link is available):
Originally Posted by Munkh:
I hear this term used a lot on TOL and just wanted to ask for clarification what others believe it means?
The reason I ask is because I often see it being referred to [as] Gentiles being grafted into Israel (Wild olives of Romans 11) and so becoming Israel but when you look at actual grafting, the grafted in branch does not become the same as the root in other words you can graft an Orange branch onto a Lemon tree and it still produces Oranges not lemons. It does get its sustenance from the Lemon tree roots and is supported by the roots but it is still an orange branch not a lemon.
So by that kind of poor example I have a hard time understanding how I as a Gentile become an Israelite or Jew simply because I was grafted in. I get my spiritual nourishment from the same source but I am still a Gentile.
I can find nothing in Romans 11 to lead me to believe otherwise so please help my confusion.
“Munkh” was quite right in his/her assessment of what Romans 11 says in light of the realities of actual grafting practices.

Let’s look at the grafting metaphor in Romans 11 coupled with actual olive tree grafting:
Romans 11:11-24
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap of the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
Back to the Scripture in a moment, but if you please, read through this article on olive tree grafting, The Road Back to Tradition Begins With a Graft . The article is an agrarian one, not a religious one, so there is no bias in the article’s grafting perspective. It’s a short article with enlightening photos, and well worth the read.

What I want you to notice is how when the grafting process on an olive tree is started, the olive tree is cut down to almost nothing. There is basically only root stock left. The writer of the article describes it as “a brutal process, if you’re a tree”. Other resources available about olive tree grafting tell how resilient the olive tree is, and how, after grafting, it can actually be a stronger tree and bear more fruit as a result.

So back to the Scripture, and please do look at the article on grafting, as you’ll get a visual to go along with the Scripture which really describes a much more radical process than those of us unfamiliar with grafting may have in mind. Paul differentiates the Root from the branches, and as such, based on what I now know about grafting, the branches are the Body of Christ, made up of both Jews and Gentiles, and Christ is the Root. “You do not support the root, BUT THE ROOT SUPPORTS YOU.”

Does Israel support us?

No, Jesus does!

What happened to the branches?
“‘Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.’ 20Granted. But THEY WERE BROKEN OFF BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF, and you stand BY FAITH. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.”

When an olive tree is prepped for grafting, all of the branches are cut off. After the Cross, unbelieving Israel was cut off. Those who believed then and believe now were/are grafted back in, along with believing Gentiles. All were/are grafted in by faith, and nowhere is there any indication that the wild branches become natural branches.

Do they all share in the life that comes from the Root?

Yes.

Do they maintain their identity?

Ethnically, yes.

As believers in Christ we become one tree, Jew and Gentile both grafted in by faith to the Root through Whom we receive life. Our primary identity is that we are in Christ! As a believer, I am in Christ first and foremost – I identify as a Christian who happens to be a Gentile, not a Gentile who happens to be a Christian.

It is at this point where I expect the HRM/MJer to chime in, “Yes! And you know that the tree is Israel, right? And if Gentiles are grafted into Israel, then Gentiles are subject to the same Law as Israel!” I’ll give them one point: Jews and Gentiles grafted into the Root are all subject to the same Law, but it isn’t Mosaic Covenant Law, it is the Law of Christ!

As if anticipating ‘the tree is Israel’ argument, Paul, in Romans chapter 9 says this:
Romans 9:1-8
1 I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit— 2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.
Note that it is Abraham’s offspring, not Jacob’s offspring that Scripture identifies as the children of the promise. Abraham’s seed was not identified as Israel; Jacob’s seed was the first to be identified as Israel. The promise is given to everyone, Israelites and Gentiles alike! This, later in the Romans 9 passage (I did not include the entire chapter for brevity’s sake):
Romans 9:30-33
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.” 33 As it is written:

“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”
Back to Romans 11:20:
But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith.
After the Cross, one is part of the tree not because of ethnicity; one is part of the tree because of faith.

Flesh vs. Spirit

Obedience/disobedience to the Law resulted in blessings/curses – for the flesh. Obey the Law - live. Disobey the Law – die. The Law, however, could never impart spiritual life; only the Crucified, Risen, God-incarnate-Christ can do that. The Law could only guarantee a natural, physical life to those who walked in obedience to its edicts and regulations, and a swift physical punishment/death for those who rebelled, either for them or for a sacrifice offered in their stead, depending on the offense.
Galatians 3:21-29
21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 7:1-6
1 Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3 So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.

4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Some in the HRM will retort, “But the Law is spiritual! Keep reading in Romans 7!” Okay, let’s do that:
Romans 7:14-25
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Paul leaves us rather hopeless at the end of Romans 7! Even though the Law is spiritual, we are still flesh, and if Paul can’t get a handle on sin, what hope have we?! He gives us a hint where he’s going in Romans 7:25, and thankfully, Paul continued writing in Romans chapter 8:
Romans 8:1-16
1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
Paul does such a powerful job of showing us our utter hopelessness in the flesh, and the great gift of being in Christ - But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. We are dead to Law (Romans 7:1) but alive in His Spirit! We are grafted into the Life-giving Root, Jesus!

After the Cross, the Law is NOT done away with; it continues to point to Christ. Instead of being that which foreshadowed Messiah in the observances which it required, the Law now serves as confirmation giving witness to Who Christ is and His fulfillment of the Law’s types and shadows! The Law’s types and shadows now reveal the Reality of He Who has come, that is Jesus Christ the long-awaited Messiah (Colossians 2:17)! This is what the Bereans were searching the Scriptures about; to see if what Paul told them about Jesus Christ being the Messiah was true. As a system of relationship with God, however, Mosaic Covenant Law has become obsolete. It has been replaced as a practical and functioning covenant by the New Covenant:
Galatians 3:19a
19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.

Hebrews 8:13
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
After the Cross several things happened (not an exhaustive list):
  1. The purpose of the Law was fulfilled when the Seed came and did the work of Redemption promised at the Fall and that promise reinforced to Abraham’s seed.
  2. The Law, as a functioning religious system, became obsolete because of the complete work of Christ. Primary evidence proving that the two covenants cannot operate at the same time is that the Old Covenant had a sacrificial system, CLEARLY made obsolete by the once-and-for-all sacrifice of The Lamb of God, Jesus Christ (Hebrews 10) .
  3. Unbelieving Israel was cut off (Romans 11:20). The ONLY way to be grafted back into the Life-giving Root is by FAITH in the Messiah, for both the Jew and the Gentile.
Grafted in by Faith. Clothed in Christ. One Body in Christ. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, according to the promise not according to flesh. We are to abide in the Vine, Jesus (John 15). One building, made up of living stones, whose Cornerstone is Christ. All abstract, spiritual concepts, removed from the flesh and bound together by faith and trust in the Crucified and Risen Christ Who gives us LIFE by His Spirit.

One’s ethnicity (flesh) does not change because one is grafted into the tree – natural branches grafted back in and wild branches grafted in live together as one tree drawing spiritual Life from the same Source, The Root, Who is Christ. Note that in the natural world, grafted branches continue to produce the fruit of the stock from which they were cut, receiving life from the root into which they’ve been grafted – their individual identity does not change, though they receive life from the same root, natural and wild branches alike. The overall identity of the Tree is one in Christ, however, even though the branches consist of both natural and wild branches. The believing Jew/Israelite and the believing Gentile are grafted in together, becoming ONE TREE by faith in Christ, who gives them ALL spiritual LIFE.

A quote from the tree-grafting article, “Yeah. It’s not a hybrid; it changes the whole identity of the tree.” [Bolding mine.] Several metaphors are used to describe those in Christ being the people of God, and they cover a lot of bases, showing that the ground is level at the foot of the Cross. Whether Jew, Gentile, male, female, slave or free, we are all one in Christ. Whether natural branches or wild, we all receive Life from the Root, Who is Jesus. We are living stones, carefully placed by the Master Builder, built into a spiritual house, joined together by the Chief Cornerstone:
1 Peter 2:4-5
4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
Romans 12:1-2
1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. 2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Ephesians 2:19-22
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
Before Christ’s work at the Cross, the people of God had an identity of Israel, and in Romans 11 they are represented by an olive tree. After Christ’s work at the Cross, God’s people have a whole new identity in Christ. Another metaphor used in the New Testament is that we are One Body, with many parts:
1 Corinthians 12:12-14
12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.

Romans 12:3-8
3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. 4 Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5 so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man’s gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. 7 If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8 if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.
Over and over references to who we are in Christ hammer home that regardless of our ethnicity or position or gender, we are one in Christ! I, and every other person who is in Christ remains who God created us to be in the flesh while simultaneously becoming a New Creation and a part of His Body by His Spirit. Does that make all who are in Christ Jews/Israel? No, for the Scripture says there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female. Okay . . . I’m female, and I’m in Christ. Do I cease to be female in the physical? Of course not! I’m also a Gentile, and I’m in Christ. Do I cease to be a Gentile? No. Being in Christ does not mean our ethnicity/gender/social standing (caste, position, whatever) changes, but we do become members of the Body of Christ, and as such, are one IN HIM. [It is important to note here that the terms 'Jew' and 'Israel' are used interchangeably in Scripture.]
The Two House/Ephraimite Error

As mentioned at the top of this post, there are some who think they actually areIsrael/Jews/Ephraim who are in the Messianic/Hebrew Roots/Netzarim streams of thought. There are some who think they heard that some great-grand parent might have been Jewish and they proudly take on that identity. Some actually shell out $$$ to have their DNA tested. Others ‘just have a feeling’ that they are part of the Lost Ten Tribes of Israel (that aren’t really lost, by the way). One person who has come out of the HRM told me that some in the Hebrew Roots Movement claim to have had a mystical experience similar to the Mormon ‘burning in the bosom’ after which they ‘just know’ they are part of Ephraim (the Lost 10 Tribes).

The Bible, however, doesn’t teach that those who believe on Messiah become Israel, or that they are drawn to the Cross just because they are Israel. All of the metaphors used in the Scriptures written to the Body of Christ confirm that God makes everyone who puts their faith and trust in Jesus Christ and His work at the Cross a New Creation, regardless of gender, ethnicity, or position. (See also the entry Ephraimite on the Glossary A-F Page for more information on the ‘Two House Doctrine/Ephraimite Error.)

Conclusions
Tree grafting is not rocket science. Save for the chain saws and tape, grafting has remained pretty much the same since it was first tried, and the metaphor that Paul used nearly 2000 years ago holds up as well today as it did then.There are natural branches and wild branches, each retaining their identities, all drawing their life from the same Root. As seen above, many other metaphors are used to make the same basic point.

Those in the HRM will try to take behaviors expected of the sojourner with physical Israel under the Law in the Old Testament and apply those expectations to Jews and Gentiles alike in the spiritual Body of Christ. That is an inappropriate application. Israel and Her sojourners were under Mosaic Covenant Law, given until the Seed should come. The Body of Christ rests in the Gospel – the Seed has come, He did the work of the Cross, and we have died with Him and received Life from the Resurrected Christ. All, whether Jew or Gentile, come to relationship with Him through faith – heirs according to the Promise given to all mankind.
Promises given to all mankind and depicted in the flesh of Israel via the Law give way to the spiritual realities fulfilled in Christ.

Am I saying that Israel is ‘replaced’ by the Church (Body of Christ)? No. After the Cross, however, those who are a part of Israel must be saved just as the Gentile; through faith and trust in Jesus Christ Who died, Rose on the third day, and Ascended into Heaven and sits at the Right Hand of the Father.

What of natural/national Israel? I’m content to leave that up to God. I believe that He has further plans for Her according to His Word. There are lots of different opinions about how the last events will play out, but none of that has bearing on the salvation of the individual soul before God and who we are in Christ.

Do I boast over the natural branches? No. The offer of salvation comes to the Jew first and then the Gentile. There is special honor, in my opinion, for Israel, as She is the vehicle God chose to facilitate the coming of Messiah. Israel has endured much for Her chosen status. The balance of Romans 11, vs. 25-36 can be read HERE.

Now some will take the balance of Romans regarding Israel to mean that every individual in Israel will be saved as per God’s promise in this passage. Yet Scripture tells us that Jesus is the only Way to the Father. Some surmise that a representative number of Israel will be saved, thus fulfilling the promise. Like with many prophecies, we often don’t know how they will come about until God fulfills them and then we say, “Oh! That’s what He meant by that Scripture!” So I’m content to wait to see how God will fulfill His promises to Israel.

As those in Christ we are grafted into the Root, abide in the Vine, become part of the Body of Christ. In Christ, we live in a spiritual reality in spite of our ‘fleshy’ existence. The Scriptures are clear: We are a New Creation in Christ, One Body, many parts, each with talents and giftings and callings which God desires us to use to spread the Gospel of Christ to every tribe, tongue and nation. He does not require that we become ethnically someone we were not created to be to in order to partake in His Kingdom, because flesh will not inherit the Kingdom of God:
1 Corinthians 15:50-58
50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.

55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
Amen!

We, as believers in Christ, need to understand who we are in Him. Don’t let anyone tell you that ‘you are now Israel and as such are subject to the Laws given to Her by God through Moses’. If you are in Christ, you are now dead to the Law and alive in Christ. If you are in Christ, you are part of the Body of Christ, where there is neither Jew nor Gentile, slave nor free, male nor female - we believers are all one in Him!

__________




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Old 09-06-2011, 06:46 AM
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I think you may have missed a few verses, or I missed it because I'm in a hurry this AM...

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Something to think about, eh? Wish I could continue with this, but have what looks to be a several day dozing job that I gotta scram for.

Also, Jgrow...I made a thread about another of your doctrines here, in case you missed it:

http://www.survivalistboards.com/sho...d.php?t=183197

It's about that "one-time" repentance doctrine you teach.



Also, I wish folks would chew on this a bit more...really direct language for the "whys" of what is coming!:

Isa 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the torah, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Isa 24:6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
Old 09-06-2011, 06:51 AM
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Oh, and a quick PS...IF you are a "New Covenant" believer...remember who it is made with! If ya' ain't grafted in, ya' ain't got no covenant!

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my torah in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

As for the Gentiles....

Jer 16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.
 
Old 09-06-2011, 06:57 AM
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let me get this straight, i was flat out cut off for no reason cause God felt like it, whether i believe are not, cause the whole tree was cut down and it says only who believed then and now were grafted BACK in, so then God just came hacked our tree down and aspects me to jion you guys! to be grafted back in to my own tree!, i'll pass
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Old 09-06-2011, 07:14 AM
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i wonder how God would feel if i just threw Him away for some other god?
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Old 09-06-2011, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by temu View Post
I think you may have missed a few verses, or I missed it because I'm in a hurry this AM...

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Something to think about, eh? Wish I could continue with this, but have what looks to be a several day dozing job that I gotta scram for.

Also, Jgrow...I made a thread about another of your doctrines here, in case you missed it:

http://www.survivalistboards.com/sho...d.php?t=183197

It's about that "one-time" repentance doctrine you teach.



Also, I wish folks would chew on this a bit more...really direct language for the "whys" of what is coming!:

Isa 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the torah, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Isa 24:6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

nigh to what?
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Old 09-06-2011, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Standox View Post
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

nigh to what?
To Israel and the covenants of promise...by engrafting!
Old 09-06-2011, 07:30 AM
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Sorry JGIG but I don't have time to read your entire post this morning but will try to take the time when I get home from work. There seems to be a whole lot to digest. I can't say at this point whether I fully agree with you or not but it looks like you did a lot of homework and I do appreciate anyone who puts forth that sort of effort.

I did find this little tidbit very interesting and worth some thought:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Munkh:
I hear this term used a lot on TOL and just wanted to ask for clarification what others believe it means?
The reason I ask is because I often see it being referred to [as] Gentiles being grafted into Israel (Wild olives of Romans 11) and so becoming Israel but when you look at actual grafting, the grafted in branch does not become the same as the root in other words you can graft an Orange branch onto a Lemon tree and it still produces Oranges not lemons. It does get its sustenance from the Lemon tree roots and is supported by the roots but it is still an orange branch not a lemon.
So by that kind of poor example I have a hard time understanding how I as a Gentile become an Israelite or Jew simply because I was grafted in. I get my spiritual nourishment from the same source but I am still a Gentile.
I can find nothing in Romans 11 to lead me to believe otherwise so please help my confusion.
Very perceptive of Munkh I have to say.
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Old 09-06-2011, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by temu View Post
Oh, and a quick PS...IF you are a "New Covenant" believer...remember who it is made with! If ya' ain't grafted in, ya' ain't got no covenant!

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my torah in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

As for the Gentiles....

Jer 16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.
Jgrow has ignored this about twelve thousand times, so I don't expect an answer this time either. She wants to have it both ways. She wants all the "new covenant" benefits without any of the responsibilities of being Israel that go along with it. Sorry, but Scripture stomps that clean into the ground.
Old 09-06-2011, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Standox View Post
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

nigh to what?
With the veil now torn in two you and I now have direct access to the Holy Spirit and to the Father through Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 2:13-18, "13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father."
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Old 09-06-2011, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by JGIG View Post
What I want you to notice is how when the grafting process on an olive tree is started, the olive tree is cut down to almost nothing. There is basically only root stock left. The writer of the article describes it as “a brutal process, if you’re a tree”. Other resources available about olive tree grafting tell how resilient the olive tree is, and how, after grafting, it can actually be a stronger tree and bear more fruit as a result.-JGIG
And to produce OLIVES...not "peaches, plums, or pears"!

Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

His goal is echad...to become ONE...not olives produced by Israel and peaches to come from the church!

Old 09-06-2011, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Standox View Post
let me get this straight, i was flat out cut off for no reason cause God felt like it, whether i believe are not, cause the whole tree was cut down and it says only who believed then and now were grafted BACK in, so then God just came hacked our tree down and aspects me to jion you guys! to be grafted back in to my own tree!, i'll pass
I think she's saying that because you're a Jew you don't believe.

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Old 09-06-2011, 08:18 AM
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Various Olive Varieties:



http://homecooking.about.com/od/frui...evarieties.htm

Quote:
Olive Varieties

Here are some of the more popular olive varieties:

manzanilla: Spanish green olive, available unpitted and/or stuffed, lightly lye-cured then packed in salt and lactic acid brine

picholine: French green olive, salt-brine cured, with subtle, lightly salty flavor, sometimes packed with citric acid as a preservative in the U.S.

kalamata: Greek black olive, harvested fully ripe, deep purple, almond-shaped, brine-cured, rich and fruity flavor

niçoise: French black olive, harvested fully ripe, small in size, rich, nutty, mellow flavor, high pit-to-meat ratio, often packed with herbs and stems intact

liguria: Italian black olive, salt-brine cured, with a vibrant flavor, sometimes packed with stems

ponentine: Italian black olive, salt-brine cured then packed in vinegar, mild in flavor

gaeta: Italian black olive, dry-salt cured, then rubbed with oil, wrinkled in appearance, mild flavor, often packed with rosemary and other herbs

lugano: Italian black olive, usually very salty, sometimes packed with olive leaves, popular at tastings

sevillano: Californian, salt-brine cured and preserved with lactic acid, very crisp
There are two varieties of olive discussed in this verse. The standard or domestic olive and the "wild olive":

Romans 11:17, "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;"

Interestingly, the "wild olive tree" was still an olive tree BEFORE it was grafted in.
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Old 09-06-2011, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ActionJackson
I did find this little tidbit very interesting and worth some thought:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munkh:
Quote:
I hear this term used a lot on TOL and just wanted to ask for clarification what others believe it means?
The reason I ask is because I often see it being referred to [as] Gentiles being grafted into Israel (Wild olives of Romans 11) and so becoming Israel but when you look at actual grafting, the grafted in branch does not become the same as the root in other words you can graft an Orange branch onto a Lemon tree and it still produces Oranges not lemons. It does get its sustenance from the Lemon tree roots and is supported by the roots but it is still an orange branch not a lemon.
So by that kind of poor example I have a hard time understanding how I as a Gentile become an Israelite or Jew simply because I was grafted in. I get my spiritual nourishment from the same source but I am still a Gentile.
I can find nothing in Romans 11 to lead me to believe otherwise so please help my confusion.
Quote:
Very perceptive of Munkh I have to say.
I think I can safely say most of us don't know if we descended from one of the 12 tribes or not. I can trace my 'ancestry' back 7 generations, but that obviously doesn't go back far enough. So again, I think most of us do not know for sure if we truly are a Gentile or of "Israel."

Now in regards to Munkh comment, here's my 2 cents worth.
And hey...I could be totally wrong here. But this is the way I see, Gentiles becoming Israel.

First, all of us, before we became 'believers,' were afar off and aliens, etc etc. no matter whether we were Gentiles or Israel. So some of us were called being Gentiles and some of us as Israel, but upon believing we all became part of the family of God.

Now to the being 'grated in' and Munkh's remark about remaing an orange and not a lemon.

If I am a Gentile and God grafted me into the olive tree did I change from a physical Gentile [orange to a lemon] and now I physically became an Israelite? No, but I did change, there's no doubt of that!! Sorry, couldn't resist saying that.

So how did I become Israel? The same why I changed from an alien to being part of God's family. In a spiritual sense.

It's sort of like when I took my husband's name in marriage. Did leaving my maiden name behind change me physically? No, but I did now have a new/different last name i.e a new identity, and a 'new' family.

Or, I remained [physically] the same person but now I go by a different name.
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Old 09-06-2011, 12:44 PM
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Not all grafting entails cutting the entire tree off either.

The Scripture clearly speaks of BRANCHES being broken off
and BRANCHES being grafted in.
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Old 09-06-2011, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoyfullyGrowingInSin View Post
Jgrow has ignored this about twelve thousand times, so I don't expect an answer this time either. She wants to have it both ways. She wants all the "new covenant" benefits without any of the responsibilities of being Israel that go along with it. Sorry, but Scripture stomps that clean into the ground.
we DO get all the benefits without the restrictions, why is this an issue? Where does it say we don’t?
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Old 09-06-2011, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by natty threads View Post
Not all grafting entails cutting the entire tree off either.

The Scripture clearly speaks of BRANCHES being broken off
and BRANCHES being grafted in.
Correct. And in olive tree grafting, the tree is cut down to root stock before branches are grafted in. Do some research and you will see that this is true.

The branches are grafted into what gives them LIFE. That is the root.

We who put our faith and trust in Christ are likewise grafted into the Root, He Who gives us LIFE !

-JGIG
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Old 09-06-2011, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by JGIG View Post
Correct. And in olive tree grafting, the tree is cut down to root stock before branches are grafted in. Do some research and you will see that this is true.

The branches are grafted into what gives them LIFE. That is the root.

We who put our faith and trust in Christ are likewise grafted into the Root, He Who gives us LIFE !

-JGIG
Scripture never says we're grafted into a root, it specifically says "tree". The root is PART of the tree, it is not some independent entity, any more than the leaves or the bark function independently.
Old 09-06-2011, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by temu View Post
I think you may have missed a few verses, or I missed it because I'm in a hurry this AM...

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Something to think about, eh? Wish I could continue with this, but have what looks to be a several day dozing job that I gotta scram for.
temu, you're taking flesh and spirit concepts and mixing the two. Where in the passage that you quote does it say that Gentiles actually become Israel and are subject to Her laws? It doesn't. The passage simply states that, "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ." Nigh to what? To the kingdom of God. What will inherit the kingdom of God? Flesh? Spirit?

Something to think about indeed.

Doze safely .



Quote:
Also, Jgrow...I made a thread about another of your doctrines here, in case you missed it:

http://www.survivalistboards.com/sho...d.php?t=183197

It's about that "one-time" repentance doctrine you teach.

Answered here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JGIG View Post
You're defining sin against a PART of God's law that applied to a certain people for a certain purpose for a certain time.

To tell me or any other Christian that we are willfully sinning because we do not 'keep' Feasts and Days and dietary laws or celebrate the New Moons is a false accusation according to Scripture. There are lots of commands throughout time that God gave. To not do them all does not mean that we are sinning.

What did I repent from? From my sinful self. I died with Christ and live with Him, and having put my faith and trust in Christ am clothed in His righteousness (Romans and 2 Corinthians). I had a change of heart and mind about who I am and my weakness and who Jesus Christ is and His strength and what it means to be in Christ. I try not to sin because I love God and love others, and that is a natural outpouring of having God's Holy Spirit in me. When I sin, I ask God to help me to not sin and tell Him how sorry I am that I have grieved Him.

Keeping in line with the meaning of repentance being a change of mind and heart you could say that I've repented about certain teachings/dogma that I've picked up along the way on my journey, and as I've matured in Christ, much of it has to do with having Grace and compassion about the secondary issues of the faith!

-JGIG
And more completely with the following post (I'll post it again here in case you missed it):
Originally Posted by JGIG
The question was asked,

. . . and temu likes to pester me about what repentance means, what defines sin, and if I repeatedly repent of my sins.

I've been crazy busy - sorry for the delay on answering this, but here ya go:

No - I do not ask for forgiveness. Before everybody starts freaking out, keep reading.

Do I apologize/regret/feel sorry for my sins?

Yes!

Do I humble myself before God and ask for His help and strength to not sin?

Yes!

Do I remember the sacrifice that was made for me and strive to honor that sacrifice and not to grieve God by my behavior?

Yes!

God says that my sins are already forgiven - put away as far as the East is from the West (Psalm 103:12) - and that He remembers them no more (Jeremiah 31:34, Hebrews 8:12).

Does He say just a few of my sins, or just a certain type of sin, or just the sins that were committed up until a certain time but that all sins after that time are not forgiven?

No!

The word repent as it is used in the New Testament has 2 related meanings - one having to do with a change of mind, the other having to do with regret:
metanoeō (repent)
1) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
2) to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins
"Repentance (metanoia, 'change of mind') involves a turning with contrition from sin to God; the repentant sinner is in the proper condition to accept the divine forgiveness." (F. F. Bruce. The Acts of the Apostles [Greek Text Commentary], London: Tyndale, 1952, p. 97.)
and:
metamelomai (repent)
1) it is a care to one afterwards
a) it repents one, to repent one's self


One place I looked used the word 'regret' to help describe repent/metamelomai.
For those of you who like to look at the etymology of a word, New Testament usage of repent traces back thus:
metanoeō (repent)
From μετά (G3326) and νοέω (G3539):
Strong's G3326 - meta

1) with, after, behind

Strong's G3539 - noeō

1) to perceive with the mind, to understand, to have understanding
2) to think upon, heed, ponder, consider
and
metamelomai (repent)
From μετά (G3326) and the middle voice of μέλει (G3199)

Strong's G3326 - meta
1) with, after, behind
Strong's G3199 - melei
1) to care about


(Source)
Now those who adhere to a Law 'keeping' paradigm will tell us that 'repent' means to 'return', and in the context of their belief system, that means to return to Law. First, let me make clear, based on what we see above, that is NOT the meaning of the word repent used in the NT, or even, as we will see, always in the OT!

When looking at the word repent in the OT, repent has 3 different Hebrew words with lots of meanings, all which need to be evaluated by context. HRM teachers like to exclusively take just two Hebrew words 'return' (Strong's H8666 - tĕshuwbah) and 'repent' (Strong's H7725 - shuwb), both which have the same Hebrew Root word (Strong's H7725 - shuwb), and try to make them interchangeable with each other, regardless of context, and regardless of the clear Greek meanings for 'repent' as stated in the NT.

To repeat: Not only do they do so within the OT itself, but they take that Hebrew word for 'return', tĕshuwbah and its root 'shuwb' and replace the Greek words for repent, which are in line with the three other Hebrew words for 'repent', Strong's H5162 - nacham, Strong's H3820 - leb, and Strong's H3824 - lebab (from Strong's H3823 - labab). To be clear - they take a Hebrew word which does not mean 'repent' anywhere in the OT and apply it to where the word repent is used in the NT!

I know that word studies can be tedious, but stick with me and let's look at the Hebrew definitions of the five different words/roots used for repent, in order of appearance in the OT (you can look at a list of the occurrences of the English word 'repent' in the OT and their corresponding Hebrew counterparts and click on the Strong's number to see meanings matched with context HERE):

No. 1:
Strong's H5162 - nacham (repent), a verb, and a primitive root (which you can't just go switching 'round with other roots!)

1) to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted
a) (Niphal)
1) to be sorry, be moved to pity, have compassion
2) to be sorry, rue, suffer grief, repent
3) to comfort oneself, be comforted
4) to comfort oneself, ease oneself
b) (Piel) to comfort, console
c) (Pual) to be comforted, be consoled
d) (Hithpael)
1) to be sorry, have compassion
2) to rue, repent of
3) to comfort oneself, be comforted
4) to ease oneself
No. 2 (This is one you'll see in HRM teachings a lot, you may also see it spelled as shoov or shoob:
Strong's H7725 - shuwb (repent), a verb, and also a primitive root
1) to return, turn back
a) (Qal)
1) to turn back, return
a) to turn back
b) to return, come or go back
c) to return unto, go back, come back
d) of dying
e) of human relations (fig)
f) of spiritual relations (fig)
1) to turn back (from God), apostatise
2) to turn away (of God)
3) to turn back (to God), repent
4) turn back (from evil)
g) of inanimate things
h) in repetition
b) (Polel)
1) to bring back
2) to restore, refresh, repair (fig)
3) to lead away (enticingly)
4) to show turning, apostatise
c) (Pual) restored (participle)
d) (Hiphil) to cause to return, bring back
1) to bring back, allow to return, put back, draw back, give back, restore, relinquish, give in payment
2) to bring back, refresh, restore
3) to bring back, report to, answer
4) to bring back, make requital, pay (as recompense)
5) to turn back or backward, repel, defeat, repulse, hinder, reject, refuse
6) to turn away (face), turn toward
7) to turn against
8) to bring back to mind
9) to show a turning away
10) to reverse, revoke
e) (Hophal) to be returned, be restored, be brought back
f) (Pulal) brought back
No. 3, with roots:
Strong's H3820 - leb (repent) , A form of לֵבָב (H3824)
1) inner man, mind, will, heart, understanding
a) inner part, midst
1) midst (of things)
2) heart (of man)
3) soul, heart (of man)
4) mind, knowledge, thinking, reflection, memory
5) inclination, resolution, determination (of will)
6) conscience
7) heart (of moral character)
8) as seat of appetites
9) as seat of emotions and passions
10) as seat of courage
Strong's H3824 - lebab, From לָבַב (H3823), meanings identical to leb.


Strong's H3823 - labab, A primitive root
1) to ravish, become intelligent, get a mind
a) (Niphal) to take heart, become enheartened, become intelligent
b) (Piel) to ravish the heart, encourage, make heart beat faster
2) (Piel) to make cakes, bake cakes, cook bread

Now for the really interesting part of how those in Law 'keeping' sects turn the NT word 'repent' (with its clear meanings in the original Greek which are in agreement with the Hebrew meanings for repent in the context of the changing of the heart and mind - please go through and read these Scriptures in context to see how the Greek and Hebrew agree about what repentance is) into the word 'return'.

It is the classic progression of the redefinition of Biblical terms.

I’ve written this before but it’s worth repeating here - One of the things that is really important to be aware of regarding this and other heretical movements is that they engage in the re-definition of terms. Once that is accomplished, those re-defined terms become fields in which seeds of questionable doctrine can be cultivated.


At HRM websites and in HRM teaching materials a consistent technique is employed to bring the reader to where the writer wishes them to go, and I can’t stress this enough:


Faulty definitions, examples, analogies and reasonings are constructed, then those same faulty definitions, examples, analogies and reasonings are built upon as FACT to take the reader to the next doctrinal place the writer wishes the reader to go.

A popular HRM teacher referred to here at SB is a master at this technique, and does so regarding the word 'repent' HERE. He takes the Hebrew word tĕshuwbah, (you'll also see it spelled teshuvah in HRM teachings) which means 'return', 'expired', or 'answers', and is NEVER used as 'repent' in the OT, which has its primitive root, shuwb (shoov, shoob), and builds a whole doctrine about how repent in the NT means to return back to Law as the act of repentance!
Strong's H8666 - tĕshuwbah From שׁוּב (H7725) (primitive root shuwb, see above)
1) a recurrence, an answer, return
a) return
1) completion of a year, return of a year
b) at the return (construct)
c) answer, reply

Word studies really can be tedious, and eyes tend to glaze over when they're presented, but folks, getting a grasp on this is important, because it's really important to be clear about what particular words God ordained to communicate specific concepts.

To sum it up: The concept of repentance in light of the Gospel is a change of heart and mind, a realization of the truth of the Gospel and the putting of one's faith and trust in Christ. The Law has NOTHING to do with it, except to point out our sin and to point us to Christ. Good works, defined in the NT as works of faith, are the result of repentance, not the vehicle for it.

This short article lays it out nicely (from GotQuestions.org):
Question: "What is repentance and is it necessary for salvation?"

Answer: Many understand the term repentance to mean “turning from sin.” This is not the biblical definition of repentance. In the Bible, the word repent means “to change one’s mind.” The Bible also tells us that true repentance will result in a change of actions (Luke 3:8-14; Acts 3:19). Acts 26:20 declares, “I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.” The full biblical definition of repentance is a change of mind that results in a change of action.

What, then, is the connection between repentance and salvation? The Book of Acts seems to especially focus on repentance in regards to salvation (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 11:18; 17:30; 20:21; 26:20). To repent, in relation to salvation, is to change your mind in regard to Jesus Christ. In Peter’s sermon on the day of Pentecost (Acts chapter 2), he concludes with a call for the people to repent (Acts 2:38). Repent from what? Peter is calling the people who rejected Jesus (Acts 2:36) to change their minds about Him, to recognize that He is indeed “Lord and Christ” (Acts 2:36). Peter is calling the people to change their minds from rejection of Christ as the Messiah to faith in Him as both Messiah and Savior.

Repentance and faith can be understood as “two sides of the same coin.” It is impossible to place your faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior without first changing your mind about who He is and what He has done. Whether it is repentance from willful rejection or repentance from ignorance or disinterest, it is a change of mind. Biblical repentance, in relation to salvation, is changing your mind from rejection of Christ to faith in Christ.

It is crucially important that we understand repentance is not a work we do to earn salvation. No one can repent and come to God unless God pulls that person to Himself (John 6:44). Acts 5:31 and 11:18 indicate that repentance is something God gives—it is only possible because of His grace. No one can repent unless God grants repentance. All of salvation, including repentance and faith, is a result of God drawing us, opening our eyes, and changing our hearts. God's longsuffering leads us to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), as does His kindness (Romans 2:4).

While repentance is not a work that earns salvation, repentance unto salvation does result in works. It is impossible to truly and fully change your mind without that causing a change in action. In the Bible, repentance results in a change in behavior. That is why John the Baptist called people to “produce fruit in keeping with repentance” (Matthew 3:8). A person who has truly repented from rejection of Christ to faith in Christ will give evidence of a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 5:19-23; James 2:14-26). Repentance, properly defined, is necessary for salvation. Biblical repentance is changing your mind about Jesus Christ and turning to God in faith for salvation (Acts 3:19). Turning from sin is not the definition of repentance, but it is one of the results of genuine, faith-based repentance towards the Lord Jesus Christ.

(Copyright Policy: While all of the material on the GotQuestions.org website is under copyright protection, the only purpose of our copyright is to make sure people copy it right. As long as you always clearly reference and/or link to www.gotquestions.org as the source of the material, you have our permission to copy, print, and distribute our material.)
May God grant you wisdom and discernment as you consider all of these things.

-JGIG
I added in a later post that the gotquestions article was a little 'Calviny', but got the basic point across.



Part of why you keep asking me the same question over and over about repentance is that you define repentance according to Brad Scott's definition, which, as I have proven above, is false.

And either you're getting senile or you're playing the 'she still hasn't answered the question' game to try to make me look bad when I have answered the question - several times. You just don't like the answer .


Quote:
Also, I wish folks would chew on this a bit more...really direct language for the "whys" of what is coming!:

Isa 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the torah, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Isa 24:6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
If we lived before the advent of the work of Christ, you'd have a point. But we don't. While you're resting your bones after a hard day of bulldozing, take some time to read this article:

Old Testament Believers and New Testament Christians

It's a meaty read. Enjoy!

-JGIG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoyfullyGrowingInSin View Post
Scripture never says we're grafted into a root, it specifically says "tree". The root is PART of the tree, it is not some independent entity, any more than the leaves or the bark function independently.
From where do grafted in branches get their life?

Where do you get life?

Is your identity wrapped up in Israel?

Is your identity wrapped up in Christ?

Beyond that, Paul used an olive tree metaphor. Do some research into olive tree grafting and see what a radical process that really is.

-JGIG
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