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Old 01-24-2013, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by msmalley View Post
First of all it would not happen overnight and anyone with an IQ above plant life would see it coming. If they come after my guns I won't resist but they will have to bring a lot of men and a lot of SHOVELS because I own 640 acres and they will be doing a lot of digging.
No problem..... they'll just seize your property under the existing asset forfeiture laws. If you've watched the "war on drugs" for the last 40 years and the "war on terror" for the last 12 then you know exactly how the war on guns will be prosecuted.

Terry
Old 01-24-2013, 08:09 AM
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Its a shame all my weapons were lost in the boating accident ....
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Old 01-24-2013, 08:15 AM
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ReadyOrNot, that's one big FAIL. Scalia's ruling never once mentions the word Sheriff except in the title. And it never once implies that state or local governments power supersedes the power of the Federal Government.

What that case does say is that the Federal Government cannot force the state or local governments to participate or assist the Federal Government in enforcing federal laws. The sheriffs are all within their rights and power to refuse to enforce new gun laws but no one, yet, has shown anything that supports the idea that the local sheriff can kick the Federal Government, or any other American for that matter, out of his county.
Old 01-24-2013, 08:18 AM
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Yes most will uphold the Constitution, I took the same oath...... But I will not obey a Unlawful order.
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Old 01-24-2013, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Levant View Post
ReadyOrNot, that's one big FAIL. Scalia's ruling never once mentions the word Sheriff except in the title. And it never once implies that state or local governments power supersedes the power of the Federal Government.

What that case does say is that the Federal Government cannot force the state or local governments to participate or assist the Federal Government in enforcing federal laws. The sheriffs are all within their rights and power to refuse to enforce new gun laws but no one, yet, has shown anything that supports the idea that the local sheriff can kick the Federal Government, or any other American for that matter, out of his county.
I'm not a lawyer, but that is the ruling that is said to uphold their claims, the feds will find a way to gradually walk around it unless we press our local reps and elect them and fed reps that will stand against it. If they push before the next elections? Trouble, in many areas.
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Old 01-24-2013, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Levant View Post
Where did the states recognize the sheriff as the leading law enforcement in the county? Where did the states say the state police are not superior to the county sheriff?

I remember, was it almost 30 years ago, when the first FEMA police showed up. We were all up in arms at the thought of federal police. Of course the FBI and many other federal law enforcement agencies had already existed for 2 centuries.

The only way the sheriff can stop the federal police from enforcement of federal laws would be if something in the constitution, federal law, state constitutions, or state laws said so. Otherwise, it's all conjecture and pipedreams. I wish it were so that the sheriff could order feds out of the county but I don't think there's any legal basis for the statement. Please provide the legal basis, not conjecture.
Why do you keep asking the same answered questions over again ????

The feds powers are LIMITED & WELL DEFINED any powers NOT outlined in the CONSTITUTION go to the STATES &, or the PEOPLE !(As I said already)

If the feds exceed their Constitutional authority THE SHERIFF CAN STOP THEM (as I said already)

The sheriff C A N order the feds from their county (IF) the feds are not lawfully in that county per their WELL DEFINED CONSTITUTIONAL POWERS !!! (AS i SAID ALREADY)

"Where did the states recognize the sheriff as the leading Lawman" ~ When we the people hold an election & put him in that position ! He is also the leader of the militia... This has been the way it's worked since the beginning & is even laid out in the Federalist Papers the same way it is still done today !!! (You know, you could find this out without me!)

(Btw~ The FBI didn't exist until 1908 as the BOI & then became the FBI in 1935)

Which "Federal law enforcement agencies" existed 200 years ago ??
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:02 AM
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What will I do if they come to my door? I suppose I'll answer the door so they don't kick it down. The question is really "what will I do before they begin going door to door?" The answer is currently my own business and ultimately I'll probably be screwed in one way or another.
Old 01-24-2013, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by gijoeman1 View Post
Its a shame all my weapons were lost in the boating accident ....
Man, gun owners should really stay the heck away from boats! They always seem to have accidents and lose all their guns overboard. Why they always seem to bring ALL their guns in the boat with them escapes me.

Terry
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by pthor View Post
Why do you keep asking the same answered questions over again ????

The feds powers are LIMITED & WELL DEFINED any powers NOT outlined in the CONSTITUTION go to the STATES &, or the PEOPLE !(As I said already)

If the feds exceed their Constitutional authority THE SHERIFF CAN STOP THEM (as I said already)

The sheriff C A N order the feds from their county (IF) the feds are not lawfully in that county per their WELL DEFINED CONSTITUTIONAL POWERS !!! (AS i SAID ALREADY)

"Where did the states recognize the sheriff as the leading Lawman" ~ When we the people hold an election & put him in that position ! He is also the leader of the militia... This has been the way it's worked since the beginning & is even laid out in the Federalist Papers the same way it is still done today !!! (You know, you could find this out without me!)

(Btw~ The FBI didn't exist until 1908 as the BOI & then became the FBI in 1935)

Which "Federal law enforcement agencies" existed 200 years ago ??
Which is also why I posted to the recent ruling supporting this.
Old 01-24-2013, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by bighanded View Post
again guys, I'm proceeding from a different assumption... I do not expect the Feds to come to my door... I expect them to come to my bank account...without leaving the comfort of the DC offices...they will fine me, penalize me, freeze my assets..basically destroy my quality of life and I'll soon not have a door to darken...local sheriff will not be able to protect me from that...

so let's assume that I have 3 guns...2 are recent purchases and well documented under the current infringement laws...the 3rd is a handme down from dear ol dad, purchased when this country was still free.

so along comes the mail man with a letter from the ATF, cosigned by the IRS and it seems that my best move, if I want to keep my job, my money, my home, is to promptly turn in my guns and wimp back home to my wife who knows I no longer have my manhood and that I am not a criminal because I did not turn in the 3rd gun (all hypothetical boys)
Now along comes civil unrest, gangs and looters assuming me and all my kind are now unarmed and bad comes to my front door one night....I use my 3rd gun in defense of our lives which then turns into a police report an hour later and I have a choice of becoming a fugitive or an inmate.

most of the millions of new gun owners don't even have that 3rd gun option...but most of them will simply turn their guns in....and this leadership knows this..they just are trying to figure out how to minimize the collateral damage of the few who do plan to make a stand at their front porch.
I've seen this theory posed before, but there are some major hurdles that might be impossible to cross.

Situation:

Let's say over the past ten years, I've purchased ten firearms. Now, during those ten years I've sold four of them (no records since they are not required) and traded another four. I have ten weapons still, but there is no paper trail whatsoever. The 4473 is only good to prove who the FFL sold the firearm to initially, after that it is a cluster to attempt to track any weapon (this is in states that do not require registration etc)

Possible for the Feds/BATF/IRS to implement firearm registration/confiscation this way? Yes, but without physically searching homes, it is impossible to prove that an individual has/has not sold their legally purchased firearms.

If this was attempted, this would be an absolute mess for so many reasons.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by pthor View Post
Which "Federal law enforcement agencies" existed 200 years ago ??
Customs. Bill 1 of Senate 1 created the Customs department.

The question has not been answered about sheriffs. The courts have continuously held that the Federal Courts get to determine constitutionality of federal laws, not the states.

Read about Constitutional nullification: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullifi...._Constitution)

So, let me ask even once more: from what legal or constitutional authority, federal or state, do you make the claim that the county sheriff can prevent the feds from enforcing federal law in a county?

They can refuse to enforce it all they want for themselves but they cannot prevent the feds from enforcing federal law.
Old 01-24-2013, 12:38 PM
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Which is also why I posted to the recent ruling supporting this.
What ruling supported it? That ruling simply said that the feds cannot require the sheriff to enforce federal law. If you guys just don't care to admit it, or if you're just unable to understand it, you're still wrong. Nothing in the state or federal constitutions back you up and no court case in history backs you up.
Old 01-24-2013, 01:13 PM
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Levant, do you want case law supporting the 10th amendment?
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:16 PM
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That's what I was thinking. Having a "bill of sale" to someone."Nope I no longer own that gun, here's who I sold it to." will be my answer.
Old 01-24-2013, 01:37 PM
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Feds, UN, whoever... "We want your gun."

Me... "They were talking about gun ban, so I sold my stripped AR lower for $500. Wanna come in and see my new big screen TV? Man, I don't want no trouble."






That said, I'm a combat vet and an Oathkeeper. I learned a lesson from haji.
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Old 01-24-2013, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Levant View Post
Customs. Bill 1 of Senate 1 created the Customs department.

The question has not been answered about sheriffs. The courts have continuously held that the Federal Courts get to determine constitutionality of federal laws, not the states.

Read about Constitutional nullification: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullifi...._Constitution)

So, let me ask even once more: from what legal or constitutional authority, federal or state, do you make the claim that the county sheriff can prevent the feds from enforcing federal law in a county?

They can refuse to enforce it all they want for themselves but they cannot prevent the feds from enforcing federal law.
Customs? Seriously ?? yea ok...

I didn't say who determines the Constitutionality of Federal law! nor was it our subject...

As for the other repeats- Refer to the other 7 times I've answered it !!!!!!!!
Old 01-24-2013, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Levant View Post
What ruling supported it? That ruling simply said that the feds cannot require the sheriff to enforce federal law. If you guys just don't care to admit it, or if you're just unable to understand it, you're still wrong. Nothing in the state or federal constitutions back you up and no court case in history backs you up.
You've been proven completely wrong by just about everyone in here and yet you are still trying to grasp at straws !

Are you seriously that hard headed that you refuse to accept the facts repeatedly laid in front of you, or is blindly argueing with everyone about everything just your favorite past time ???
Old 01-24-2013, 06:54 PM
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Which is also why I posted to the recent ruling supporting this.
I saw that, maybe he refuses to accept it too...
Old 01-24-2013, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by stevegee58 View Post
Guys. England and Australia didn't have anything even remotely like the 2nd Amendment of the US Constitution. Come to think of it, England and Australia don't really have constitutions at all. (Well they don't to my knowledge anyway.)
with the way our constitution has been trampled I am not sure we have one anymore
Old 01-24-2013, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ReadyOrNot View Post
Levant, do you want case law supporting the 10th amendment?
No. What I want is case law that says the county sheriff has some special authority that allows him to kick federal LEO out of his county. Got any? If not then why can't the mayor throw them out? Or the county commissioner? Or the sewer manager? The 10th Amendment doesn't mention counties or sheriffs. It mentions states and people:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The 10th Amendment
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
So maybe I have the right to throw them out, me being "the people" and all. But I don't see the sheriff having this authority - at least not based on his being the sheriff.

The link I sent before explains the case law on nullification. Only the federal government gets to say what's constitutional. If the law is deemed constitutional by the federal courts then the 10th clearly does not give the power to even the states to stop the feds. If the order is constitutional and, therefore, within the power of the Federal Government then the 10th Amendment does not apply since it is only within the power of the Federal Government if the Constitution delegates the power.

So, for any constitutional law, neither the sheriff, the state, nor the people get to kick the federal enforcers out.

So now let's consider an unconstitutional law. If a law is unconstitutional then there is no requirement to obey it.

Early history of the constitutional debates indicate that, in spite of the Court's saying only they get to decide constitutionality, demonstrates that it was the intent of the Founders that the states had the power to question the constitutionality of a law, not the federal courts. But nowhere in those discussions was there any mention of a county sheriff. If anyone outside of the Federal Government gets to challenge the constitutionality of a federal law it would be the states or the people.

If you believe any law is unconstitutional you have the right to refuse to obey. Perhaps you can be the test case upon which the Supreme Court will decide the constitutionality of new laws. If you win, you go free - and become famous. Unfortunately, actual unconstitutionality has nothing to do with the process and you're putting your neck on the line.

Since you also have the right to resist illegal arrest, including, if necessary, the use of deadly force to resist it, you have another opportunity to take a stand on the constitutionality of the laws.

On the other hand, the sheriff does get to refuse to enforce the laws. Although they don't get to order the federal agents out of their county, they do have one other requirement that I don't even hear from OathKeepers. They have the obligation to uphold the law. That means that they could, and should, arrest any federal agents trying to violate any person's rights under color of law.
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