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Old 08-19-2011, 06:13 PM
Rancho5 Rancho5 is offline
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Default When did cars start having computer parts? Thinking about EMP vehicle.



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The kids are growing up and leaving the roost, so maybe I can afford a BOV. I'd rather not modify a newer one but just get an old 4x4 with no electronics.

I'm thinking an older diesel Blazer, or something like that.

What year would I need to go before, to make sure it had no parts an EMP could affect?
Old 08-19-2011, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Rancho5 View Post
The kids are growing up and leaving the roost, so maybe I can afford a BOV. I'd rather not modify a newer one but just get an old 4x4 with no electronics.

I'm thinking an older diesel Blazer, or something like that.

What year would I need to go before, to make sure it had no parts an EMP could affect?
A handful of vehicles in the mid-late 70's began using integrated circuits.

Here's a rough timeline of onboard diagnostics from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On-boar...ostics#History
Old 08-19-2011, 06:17 PM
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around 1973
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Old 08-19-2011, 06:19 PM
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yea u have to go pretty far back to get something with little to no electronics.
Old 08-19-2011, 06:38 PM
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Except for HEI ignitions it's quite possible to find vehicles without computer controls up to 1980. After that it's very hard to find but a select few vehicles.

As an example the 1980 Monte Carlo I have has an HEI ignition but no computer command module. Not sure how important points are over the HEI for an EMP.

It also has a standard carburetor. No throttle body or fuel injection.
Old 08-19-2011, 06:38 PM
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I'd say about the simplest car you can probably still easily get would be any classic VW Beetle...

Small enough too that you could probably craft a Faraday Cage to keep it in...
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Old 08-19-2011, 06:43 PM
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So you guys protect your vehicle's electronics to run on what fuel? Pretty sure it takes electricity to produce it, pump it, right?

I don't get the EMP thing... if it happens, there's no reason to protect anything, unless everybody (or a SUBSTANTIAL number) else does. You'd be better off prepping for the financial sheet storm that's coming.

A saved vehicle without fuel is like a rifle without ammo.
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Old 08-19-2011, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by 13FoxTrot10 View Post
So you guys protect your vehicle's electronics to run on what fuel? Pretty sure it takes electricity to produce it, pump it, right?

I don't get the EMP thing... if it happens, there's no reason to protect anything, unless everybody (or a SUBSTANTIAL number) else does. You'd be better off prepping for the financial sheet storm that's coming.

A saved vehicle without fuel is like a rifle without ammo.
I'm not saying the likelihood is high. But think of it this way... If an EMP does strike, many vehicles would be inoperable. They'd likely all have on average a half tank of fuel, right? And it is possible that people have extra fuel stored. At a minimum, you may have enough fuel in your EMP proof vehicle to get a couple hundred miles, which is a hell of a lot faster with a car than on foot.
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Old 08-19-2011, 09:50 PM
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Depends on the car. Big 3 went to electronic ignition in the mid 70's Japanese cars in the late 70's. It's usually easy to convert an early 80's car back to breaker point ignition and carb fuel system.
Old 08-19-2011, 10:52 PM
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If you can afford it, just buy yourself a classic car of some sort to occasionally drive around town. An old Ford El Rancho or Chevy El Camino are pretty good ideas. Some military vehicles, even the pretty new ones, sometimes come without computer chips in them so that is also an option too. Just check under the hood, with a good mechanis or with the internet before you buy a car to eliminate the computer chips.
Old 08-20-2011, 06:33 AM
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Dodge trucks had a mechanical diesel engine until 1997. Their gas vehicles had carbs into the '80s. Only electronics were the ignition modules. These would be easy to protect/change out.
Old 08-20-2011, 06:58 AM
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Get a deuce and a half. You're done.
Old 08-20-2011, 07:03 AM
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According to US Army tests, modern vehicles with sophisticated electronics also have a great deal of sophisticated EMI shielding that would prevent damage from an EMP.

Even older cars have condensors that could be damaged, as well as starting systems and batteries.

You really can't go wrong with a diesel. Or a bicycle.

Az
Old 08-20-2011, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 13FoxTrot10 View Post
So you guys protect your vehicle's electronics to run on what fuel? Pretty sure it takes electricity to produce it, pump it, right?

I don't get the EMP thing... if it happens, there's no reason to protect anything, unless everybody (or a SUBSTANTIAL number) else does. You'd be better off prepping for the financial sheet storm that's coming.

A saved vehicle without fuel is like a rifle without ammo.
What, a manual pump won't work? Just drop a hose down in the filler hole of any stranded car, or the filler plates in the parking lot of your favorite gas station and crank away.

Or just using the gas you've already got? One of the reasons I chose my vehicle was it's fuel mileage. I added an auxillary tank, and with both full I can drive over 800 miles with no need for refueling. And it's a diesel, so even if my electronics are hosed, I should still be able to make it roll.

Survival is about determination, not giving up because it seems impossible or looks too hard.

That being said, as a family we're working on eliminating (or at least severely reducing) our dependence on fossil fuels for locomotion. It makes sense for us financially right now, and probably more so in the future. And if we do face a scenario that involves shortage of fuel or vehicles, we'll be much better prepared.

Az
Old 08-20-2011, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rancho5 View Post
The kids are growing up and leaving the roost, so maybe I can afford a BOV. I'd rather not modify a newer one but just get an old 4x4 with no electronics.

I'm thinking an older diesel Blazer, or something like that.

What year would I need to go before, to make sure it had no parts an EMP could affect?

your going to have to get a REALLY old vechile for NO electronics. think hand crank but still you got to have something fireing the spark plugs.

an emp will not just fry the computer on a car it will super charge any and all conductive wire , so any wireing will hold a charge and could burn up what ever its hooked up to,like a silanoid or starter
Old 08-20-2011, 09:26 AM
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Interesting fact -- a modern automobile has between 10 million and 20 million lines of software code for it's computerized electronics. This is way more than the first Space Shuttle had.
Old 08-20-2011, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AZSrvr View Post
yea u have to go pretty far back to get something with little to no electronics.
As far back as 1998?

Dodge Rams with Cummins diesels before the 98 model year don't use electronics for critical systems except the charging system. If you bypass the fuel shutoff solenoid, which is very easy then you would be fine. The intake heater has a timer on it and maybe some relays, but you could have an override with a switch.

This leaves relays and solenoids which you will have in almost any modern car or other equipment that doesn't have a manual mechanism to start it (like a kick start motorcycle). Many cars have had electric fuel pumps for a while. Before electronic ignitions, we had points and condensors (capacitor) and an ignition coil (transformer).

This gets down to just how bad an EMP you expect. If it is really bad/close, then it can wipe out windings in motors/generators/alternators, ignition coils, condensors and yes even points. In that case, you are pretty much left with roll starting a diesel down a hill and hope that it is warm enough when you do because diesels are cold blooded.

Modern IC (integrated circuit) electronics are much more sensitive to EMP/etc. because of their nature, compared to discrete electronics - they are not made to handle the amperages that discrete electronics often handle. But they have been improving in some applications over the years - I would rather take a chance on a 2010 car with EFI than a 1978 car with EFI.

Personally, I am not too worried - my BOV is a 1997 Dodge Ram diesel 4x4 truck with manual transmission. My bike has EFI and no manual start, but I don't buy into any of the EMP scenarios much. I go the pre-electronics diesel because it is easier for me to work on.
Old 08-20-2011, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 13FoxTrot10 View Post
So you guys protect your vehicle's electronics to run on what fuel? Pretty sure it takes electricity to produce it, pump it, right?

I don't get the EMP thing... if it happens, there's no reason to protect anything, unless everybody (or a SUBSTANTIAL number) else does. You'd be better off prepping for the financial sheet storm that's coming.

A saved vehicle without fuel is like a rifle without ammo.
If a vehicle only has 50 gallons of fuel and it runs, it will get you somewhere between 500 and 1000 miles before it runs out of fuel. That is what a BOV is for - to bug out. What happens *after* you get to your BOL depends on the scenario, how much fuel you have left/stored at the BOL and how much you need to use the BOV.

Personally, if I am bugging out, I am going to a BOL less than 100 miles away and then I am pretty much staying put. I am not going to be running down to the local 7-Eleven for milk, or anything like that. Also, once I get some land I will probably be living at my BOL and I will have extra fuel there.

If you buy into a zombie apocalypse scenario where we go back to the dark ages and never climb out again, then fine, yeah, eventually you run out of fuel - but until you do a vehicle that runs can be a huge advantage over one that doesn't. Even if all it only ever does is get you to your BOL safely, then it will have served its purpose.

You should have alternate plans though, including alternate means of transportation. There are other reasons why you may have to abandon a vehicle and you should have a plan for doing that.

Personally, I don't buy into any of the apocalyptic scenarios much. I have a simpler vehicle because I know from experience that things break out in the middle of nowhere, and that happens to be where I take my 4x4 so I can ride my motorcycles in the boonies. I want to be able to fix things myself if I can.
Old 08-20-2011, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azb View Post
What, a manual pump won't work? Just drop a hose down in the filler hole of any stranded car, or the filler plates in the parking lot of your favorite gas station and crank away.

Or just using the gas you've already got? One of the reasons I chose my vehicle was it's fuel mileage. I added an auxillary tank, and with both full I can drive over 800 miles with no need for refueling. And it's a diesel, so even if my electronics are hosed, I should still be able to make it roll.

Survival is about determination, not giving up because it seems impossible or looks too hard.

That being said, as a family we're working on eliminating (or at least severely reducing) our dependence on fossil fuels for locomotion. It makes sense for us financially right now, and probably more so in the future. And if we do face a scenario that involves shortage of fuel or vehicles, we'll be much better prepared.

Az
You've never encountered anti-siphon tanks.
Old 08-20-2011, 10:14 AM
64duracraft 64duracraft is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 13FoxTrot10 View Post
So you guys protect your vehicle's electronics to run on what fuel? Pretty sure it takes electricity to produce it, pump it, right?

I don't get the EMP thing... if it happens, there's no reason to protect anything, unless everybody (or a SUBSTANTIAL number) else does. You'd be better off prepping for the financial sheet storm that's coming.

A saved vehicle without fuel is like a rifle without ammo.
Hmmm, quite the opposite would be true IMO.

If you have one of the few working cars, take a little drive, you see all those other cars just sitting there because of the EMP? Yaaaa, those are all little gas stations... bring a hand pump or siphon tube and have at it.

Personally, I'd want a motorcycle, more manuverable, easier to hide, faster and more fuel efficient.
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