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Old 07-28-2011, 01:53 PM
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finallyme78 finallyme78 is offline
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Default The Everlasting Covenant



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Sorry, long post.
Usually there are two sides to an argument, and all you got to do is pick a side. Unfortunately in this argument, I have chosen the middle. I will say that the two sides have really made me do a lot of studying, so for that I thank the two sides. And, of course, because I don't take one side or the other, then there is a high probability that everyone will not like what I write. Fair enough, I expect that no one will agree with me. In fact most will reject the a lot of the scripture I quote. But it will at least produce some thought, hopefully. Either that, or this thread will just spiral down into the same old discussion that has been going on for the last little while here. And, hopefully I will be able to stay away from logical fallacies. But, I am human, so if you see one, tell me so I can repent.

Anyways, here is my take. I guess we should start with the OT. If we all remember the story of the Exodus, Moses was given the Law, or Torah, direct from God. However, it wasn't the first time God's Law had been given. Adam was given God's Law as well. The Law given to Adam was what Abraham, Isaac and Jacob observed. In scripture, it is referred to as the Everlasting Covenant. The Lord, Yahweh, tried to give the Everlasting Covenant to the children of Israel through Moses, but didn't because of their unfaithfulness. Instead, Yahweh gave a lesser, preparatory Law, known as the Law of Moses. It was designed to prepare Israel to eventually receive the Everlasting Covenant.
Just a bit of trivia, the Law of Moses, or Torah, consists of the first 5 books of the OT. Sometimes people will consider the entire OT as the Torah, others only consider the five books of Moses, and the remainder is considered the "Prophets". This is what Christ was referring to when He mentioned "the Law and the Prophets". The Torah can be broken into two distinct categories. There is the ethical and moral requirements, and there is the ceremonial requirements. One thing that I have learned recently, is that by the time Christ was born, there was also an "oral" law that interpreted the written law. The Sadducees of the time rejected the oral law.
So, how do we know that the Law of Moses isn't the Everlasting Covenant? Ezekiel helps a lot, as does Jeremiah.

Quote:
Ezekiel 11
17Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
18And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
19And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
Quote:
Ezekiel 36
24For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Quote:
Ezekiel 37
22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Ezekiel also sees a future temple to be built in Jerusalem. An interesting look at his description is the departure from the ordinances done in the Mosaic Law. In other words, a different Law will be present. If a different Law is present in the temple, then the Mosaic Law isn't the Everlasting Covenant.


Quote:
Jeremiah 31
31Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32[B[Not according[/B] to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Jeremiah shows clearly that the new covenant is not the Law of Moses. The new covenant is also the Everlasting Covenant. It is everlasting because it has always been here, and always will be. Many of us can agree that Jeremiah and Ezekiel were speaking of the last days, or the time immediately prior to, and during the Millennium. The question remains, did Christ reintroduce the Everlasting Covenant during His earthly ministry? Isaiah does give us a clue.

Quote:
Isaiah 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
Here we see Isaiah talking about the time immediately prior to the Millennium. At this time, the Everlasting Covenant will be broken by the inhabitants of the earth. The only way it can be broken before the Millennium, is if it is re-instated at some point before. I believe that Christ re-instated it, and then it was broken, the laws transgressed, and the ordinances changed. Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, and John all show us that it will be restored again soon before the Millennium. Here is John in Revelations:

Quote:
Revelations 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Notice John calls it the Everlasting Gospel. The Everlasting Covenant, and Everlasting Gospel are the same thing.

Now we can better understand the NT. Christ came and restored the Everlasting Covenant/Gospel.
Quote:
Matthew 5
27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Here is an example, and there are many more, that shows Christ giving us a higher law. In all these examples, He adds to the Law of Moses. He fulfills it. Remember the two parts of the Mosaic Law, the moral and the ceremonial? Christ expanded the moral aspects of the Law and made it harder and more demanding. He filled it to its fullest extent. The ceremonial parts of the Law were there symbolically to prefigure coming events. When those events occur, that part of the Law is fulfilled and is no longer needed. A example is animal sacrifice. Animal sacrifice was a prefigure of Christ's atoning sacrifice. Once Christ atoned for our sins, animal sacrifice was no longer needed. Also, the anticipation of the event was replaced with remembrance. In this sense, the Law was not abolished, but it was changed. The Lord's last supper that He performed on Passover is the ordinance He placed in the stead of Passover.

Yeah I know, you all reject this next quote.
Quote:
3 Nephi 15
2And it came to pass that when Jesus had said these words he perceived that there were some among them who marveled, and wondered what he would concerning the law of Moses; for they understood not the saying that old things had passed away, and that all things had become new.
3And he said unto them: Marvel not that I said unto you that old things had passed away, and that all things had become new.
4Behold, I say unto you that the law is fulfilled that was given unto Moses.
5Behold, I am he that gave the law, and I am he who covenanted with my people Israel; therefore, the law in me is fulfilled, for I have come to fulfil the law; therefore it hath an end.
6Behold, I do not destroy the prophets, for as many as have not been fulfilled in me, verily I say unto you, shall all be fulfilled.
7And because I said unto you that old things have passed away, I do not destroy that which hath been spoken concerning things which are to come.
8For behold, the covenant which I have made with my people is not all fulfilled; but the law which was given unto Moses hath an end in me.
9Behold, I am the law, and the light. Look unto me, and endure to the end, and ye shall live; for unto him that endureth to the end will I give eternal life.
10Behold, I have given unto you the commandments; therefore keep my commandments. And this is the law and the prophets, for they truly testified of me.
Let's look at the conflicting ideas present during the life of Christ, and right after His death. The Jews had had the Torah for centuries. Many could not accept that there was a higher Law than the Torah. They had a hard time distinguishing between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. Many also saw that salvation only came through observance of the Law. This is why it was hard for many new Jewish converts to early Christianity to shed the old law for the new. It was also difficult for the new Jewish converts, because they still lived in a society that held the Law of Moses as the law of the land.
There was another extreme side of the coin at the time as well. The new gentile converts were not under legal restrictions to observe the Law of Moses. And, some saw that an end to the Law of Moses gave them a free license to do as they pleased, as long as they professed a belief in Christ. Throughout the NT we can see the struggle the apostles had with these two extremes.

Notice I call them extremes. Both were wrong. When Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses, He didn't do away with the Law. He gave us a new Law, which was the old Law before Moses. If we obey the new Law, then it will be written in our hearts, as the prophets have told us.

So there you go, something that both sides can agree to disagree on. Feel free to disagree with everything I have said.
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Old 07-28-2011, 02:17 PM
temu temu is offline
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Abraham had torah:

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my torah.

Torah BEFORE Sinai:

Exo 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my torah?

New Covenant...torah to be written on hearts:

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my torah in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Earth defiled for torah transgression (notice "everlasting covenant"):

Isa 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the torah, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Torah fully restored in millennial reign of our King:

Mic 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the torah shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his torah.

Finally, the full fruit of the New Covenant:

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

But, until then, do and teach:

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Come Yeshua!



Yes, I used the Strong's!

H8451
תּרה תּורה
tôrâh tôrâh
to-raw', to-raw'
From H3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law.
Old 07-28-2011, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finallyme78 View Post
Yeah I know, you all reject this next quote.
Actually, your quote from the Book of Mormon (3 Nephi 15) is fully in line with mainstream Christianity!

WOW!
Old 07-28-2011, 03:20 PM
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now, I can see why they call you FINALLY

that was long...I will read your post tonight when I get home

OM
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Old 07-28-2011, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finallyme78 View Post
Sorry, long post.
Usually there are two sides to an argument, and all you got to do is pick a side. Unfortunately in this argument, I have chosen the middle. I will say that the two sides have really made me do a lot of studying, so for that I thank the two sides. And, of course, because I don't take one side or the other, then there is a high probability that everyone will not like what I write. Fair enough, I expect that no one will agree with me. In fact most will reject the a lot of the scripture I quote. But it will at least produce some thought, hopefully. Either that, or this thread will just spiral down into the same old discussion that has been going on for the last little while here. And, hopefully I will be able to stay away from logical fallacies. But, I am human, so if you see one, tell me so I can repent.

Anyways, here is my take. I guess we should start with the OT. If we all remember the story of the Exodus, Moses was given the Law, or Torah, direct from God. However, it wasn't the first time God's Law had been given. Adam was given God's Law as well. The Law given to Adam was what Abraham, Isaac and Jacob observed. In scripture, it is referred to as the Everlasting Covenant. The Lord, Yahweh, tried to give the Everlasting Covenant to the children of Israel through Moses, but didn't because of their unfaithfulness. Instead, Yahweh gave a lesser, preparatory Law, known as the Law of Moses. It was designed to prepare Israel to eventually receive the Everlasting Covenant.
Just a bit of trivia, the Law of Moses, or Torah, consists of the first 5 books of the OT. Sometimes people will consider the entire OT as the Torah, others only consider the five books of Moses, and the remainder is considered the "Prophets". This is what Christ was referring to when He mentioned "the Law and the Prophets". The Torah can be broken into two distinct categories. There is the ethical and moral requirements, and there is the ceremonial requirements. One thing that I have learned recently, is that by the time Christ was born, there was also an "oral" law that interpreted the written law. The Sadducees of the time rejected the oral law.
So, how do we know that the Law of Moses isn't the Everlasting Covenant? Ezekiel helps a lot, as does Jeremiah.







Ezekiel also sees a future temple to be built in Jerusalem. An interesting look at his description is the departure from the ordinances done in the Mosaic Law. In other words, a different Law will be present. If a different Law is present in the temple, then the Mosaic Law isn't the Everlasting Covenant.




Jeremiah shows clearly that the new covenant is not the Law of Moses. The new covenant is also the Everlasting Covenant. It is everlasting because it has always been here, and always will be. Many of us can agree that Jeremiah and Ezekiel were speaking of the last days, or the time immediately prior to, and during the Millennium. The question remains, did Christ reintroduce the Everlasting Covenant during His earthly ministry? Isaiah does give us a clue.



Here we see Isaiah talking about the time immediately prior to the Millennium. At this time, the Everlasting Covenant will be broken by the inhabitants of the earth. The only way it can be broken before the Millennium, is if it is re-instated at some point before. I believe that Christ re-instated it, and then it was broken, the laws transgressed, and the ordinances changed. Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, and John all show us that it will be restored again soon before the Millennium. Here is John in Revelations:



Notice John calls it the Everlasting Gospel. The Everlasting Covenant, and Everlasting Gospel are the same thing.

Now we can better understand the NT. Christ came and restored the Everlasting Covenant/Gospel.

Here is an example, and there are many more, that shows Christ giving us a higher law. In all these examples, He adds to the Law of Moses. He fulfills it. Remember the two parts of the Mosaic Law, the moral and the ceremonial? Christ expanded the moral aspects of the Law and made it harder and more demanding. He filled it to its fullest extent. The ceremonial parts of the Law were there symbolically to prefigure coming events. When those events occur, that part of the Law is fulfilled and is no longer needed. A example is animal sacrifice. Animal sacrifice was a prefigure of Christ's atoning sacrifice. Once Christ atoned for our sins, animal sacrifice was no longer needed. Also, the anticipation of the event was replaced with remembrance. In this sense, the Law was not abolished, but it was changed. The Lord's last supper that He performed on Passover is the ordinance He placed in the stead of Passover.

Yeah I know, you all reject this next quote.


Let's look at the conflicting ideas present during the life of Christ, and right after His death. The Jews had had the Torah for centuries. Many could not accept that there was a higher Law than the Torah. They had a hard time distinguishing between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. Many also saw that salvation only came through observance of the Law. This is why it was hard for many new Jewish converts to early Christianity to shed the old law for the new. It was also difficult for the new Jewish converts, because they still lived in a society that held the Law of Moses as the law of the land.
There was another extreme side of the coin at the time as well. The new gentile converts were not under legal restrictions to observe the Law of Moses. And, some saw that an end to the Law of Moses gave them a free license to do as they pleased, as long as they professed a belief in Christ. Throughout the NT we can see the struggle the apostles had with these two extremes.

Notice I call them extremes. Both were wrong. When Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses, He didn't do away with the Law. He gave us a new Law, which was the old Law before Moses. If we obey the new Law, then it will be written in our hearts, as the prophets have told us.

So there you go, something that both sides can agree to disagree on. Feel free to disagree with everything I have said.
You made some really good points. But ... like you said ... I can't agree wholeheartedly. Nonetheless, thanks for a well thought out post and for taking the time to share your thoughts.

I don't believe that accepting the New Covenant at face value is an "extreme" in a negative sense. I believe in accepting it with all of my heart, mind, and soul. Scripture makes it very clear that the "New" replaced the "Old." I'm not saying that the Old Covenant was evil and I honestly believe that the moral standards set by the Old, Mosaic Covenant are worth reaching for. However, those very standards have been incorporated in the New Covenant while other portions of the Old Covenant have been discarded. If you've been keeping up with the various conversations on this topic then you already know what portions of the Mosaic Law I'm talking about.

The New Covenant has been built upon "better promises."

Anyway ... thanks again for the OP.
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Old 08-01-2011, 11:12 AM
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Sorry, I didn't respond earlier, I wanted to give people a chance to respond.

Here are some of the scriptures that Temu quotes. I am using the Jewish Publication Society Bible (JPS) (thanks On Point).

Quote:
Gen 25:5 (JPS)
because that Abraham hearkened to My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.
Quote:
Exodus 16:28 (JPS)
And HaShem said unto Moses: 'How long refuse ye to keep My commandments and My laws?
We all know that Torah=Law. So, when it says Law, you can translate it to Torah. Or, when it says Torah, you can say Law. Adam, and Abraham were given HaShem's Torah. However, it wasn't the same Torah that HaShem gave to Moses. They were given the Everlasting Torah. We know that the Torah given to Moses is not the Everlasting Torah, because of Ezekiel and Jeremiah, and Isaiah.

Here is Randall Price on Ezekiel's temple:
http://www.worldofthebible.com/Bible...e%20Temple.pdf
This is from the second paragraph, second page.
Quote:
Moreover, some of Ezekiel’s instructions for the Temple and its service contradict or are a departure from those in the Mosaic Law. For example,.......
Ezekiel described a temple that was to be put in place around the Millennium. That temple would be under the Everlasting Torah. Jeremiah, Isaiah, and Ezekiel are very clear that during the Millennium, we will be under the Everlasting Torah. Since the temple services of Ezekiel's temple contradict those in the Mosaic Torah, it is clear that the Mosaic Torah is not the Everlasting Torah.
What does that mean? It means that there is more than one Torah, and HaShem can change it.

Quote:
Jeremiah 31:31-34 (JPS)
Behold, the days come, saith HaShem, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah;

not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; forasmuch as they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, saith HaShem.

But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith HaShem, I will put My law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their G-d, and they shall be My people;

and they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying: 'Know HaShem'; for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith HaShem; for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.
The New Torah that Jeremiah is talking about is a different Torah than what was given to Moses. The Torah that is put in the hearts is not the Torah of Moses. And yes, the full fruit of the New Torah, not the Torah of Moses, is shown in verse 34. Verse 34 has not happened. It will happen when ALL of Israel comes to know HaShem. Does this mean that a remnant won't be given the New Torah before Yeshua returns? This scripture doesn't say that.

Here is John again
Quote:
Revelations 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
This tells us that an angel will preach the New Torah BEFORE Yeshua returns.

Quote:
Isaiah 24:5 (JPS)
The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, violated the statute, broken the everlasting covenant.
This tells us that the earth will have been given the Everlasting Torah, not the Torah of Moses, and then broken it, BEFORE Yeshua returns.

The scriptures tell us that the New Torah will be given BEFORE Yeshua returns. How will it be done?
Quote:
Amos 3:7 (JPS)
For the L-rd GOD will do nothing, but He revealeth His counsel unto His servants the prophets.
Yahweh will work the same way He has always worked, He will send a prophet.

Here is a side topic not related to the OP.
Quote:
Michah 4:1-2 (JPS)
But in the end of days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of HaShem'S house shall be established as the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and peoples shall flow unto it.
And many nations shall go and say: 'Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of HaShem, and to the house of the G-d of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths'; for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of HaShem from Jerusalem.
This is an interesting prophecy that many prophets in the OT like to state. I was wondering if the JPS translates it like the KJV does. They both use the term "top of the mountains", not "tops of the mountains". "Tops of the mountains" would be the correct grammar. HaShem wanted it to say "Top" and not "Tops" for a reason. Also, the prophecy says that HaShem's Torah comes from Zion, and then HaShem's Word comes from Jerusalem. Those are two places.
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