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Old 07-22-2011, 09:05 AM
Bluewater43 Bluewater43 is offline
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Question EMP Protection for vehicles



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Hi Folks,

Anybody know of any way to protect a vehicle from an EMP hit?

Know that we can put GPS, computers, & etc in metal boxes but I was wondering if there was any way to cover a SUV to protect it within reason.
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Old 07-22-2011, 09:13 AM
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That would be a tough one i think just because of the size, but not impossible. From what i understand you need three basic things. A tight metal box, that tight metal box grounded, and tight insulation within that box.

I dont see why you couldnt have a steel building, insulate it very very well, and then keep your vehicle inside parked on thick rubber mat. I know because of tires that seems redundant, but there are steel belts in the tires so you might as well go to extra lengths if your gonna go to any of the trouble at all. I would also put in two long grounding rods, one on opposite corners of the building.

I recall reading where a wire netting also stopped the EMP from getting to electronics if it was well grounded. However i dont know how well it would work if it is a strong EMP. Again i believe the three general principles are a tight steel enclosure that is well grounded and insulated.


-Nate
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Old 07-22-2011, 09:21 AM
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Apparently some people are dragging around chains around on the back of their vehicles, others say that won`t do anything. Best bet is to get some good sneakers and always carry water with you, cause chances are you`ll be hiking it.
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Old 07-22-2011, 09:23 AM
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I think maybe putting a good ground that will direct the pulse away would be the best protection or you could get an older vehicle that uses points and condensers
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Old 07-22-2011, 09:27 AM
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After reading Blutes post it donned on me that you might not have been asking about a static location.

Always park in the bottom of an underground parking garage....?


-Nate
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Old 07-22-2011, 01:20 PM
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Some here may find this of interest, since you guys are talking about EMPs and such...

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...eapons/?page=1

Quote:
Originally Posted by WT article
China's military is developing electromagnetic pulse weapons that Beijing plans to use against U.S. aircraft carriers in any future conflict over Taiwan, according to an intelligence report made public on Thursday.

Portions of a National Ground Intelligence Center study on the lethal effects of electromagnetic pulse (EMP) and high-powered microwave (HPM) weapons revealed that the arms are part of China’s so-called “assassin’s mace” arsenal - weapons that allow a technologically inferior China to defeat U.S. military forces.

EMP weapons mimic the gamma-ray pulse caused by a nuclear blast that knocks out all electronics, including computers and automobiles, over wide areas. The phenomenon was discovered in 1962 after an aboveground nuclear test in the Pacific disabled electronics in Hawaii.

The declassified intelligence report, obtained by the private National Security Archive, provides details on China’s EMP weapons and plans for their use. Annual Pentagon reports on China's military in the past made only passing references to the arms.

“For use against Taiwan, China could detonate at a much lower altitude (30 to 40 kilometers) … to confine the EMP effects to Taiwan and its immediate vicinity and minimize damage to electronics on the mainland,” the report said.

The report, produced in 2005 and once labeled “secret,” stated that Chinese military writings have discussed building low-yield EMP warheads, but “it is not known whether [the Chinese] have actually done so.”

The report said that in addition to EMP weapons, “any low-yield strategic nuclear warhead (or tactical nuclear warheads) could be used with similar effects.”

“The DF-21 medium-range ballistic missile has been mentioned as a platform for the EMP attack against Taiwan,” the report said.

According to the report, China’s electronic weapons are part of what are called “trump card” or “assassin’s mace” weapons that “are based on new technology that has been developed in high secrecy.”

“Trump card would be applicable if the Chinese have developed new low-yield, possibly enhanced, EMP warheads, while assassin’s mace would apply if older warheads are employed,” the report said.

According to the report, China conducted EMP tests on mice, rats, rabbits, dogs and monkeys that produced eye, brain, bone marrow and other organ injuries. It stated that “it is clear the real purpose of the Chinese medical experiments is to learn the potential human effects of exposure to powerful EMP and [high-powered microwave] radiation.”

The tests did not appear designed for “anti-personnel [radio frequency] weapons” because of the limited amounts of radiation used.

However, the report said another explanation is that the Chinese tests may have been research “intended primarily for torturing prisoners,” or the tests may have been conducted to determine safety or shielding standards for military personnel or weapons.

The medical research also appeared useful for China's military in making sure that EMP weapons used against Taiwan and “any vulnerable U.S. [aircraft carrier] would not push the U.S. across the nuclear-response threshold,” the report said.

“China’s [high-altitude] EMP capability could be used in two different ways: as a surprise measure after China’s initial strike against Taiwan and other U.S. [aircraft carrier strike group] assets have moved into a vulnerable position, and as a bluff intended to dissuade the United States from defending Taiwan with a CVBG,” the Pentagon acronym for carrier strike groups.

The bluff scenario would include China’s announcement of a resumption of atmospheric nuclear testing and warn of tests during a specified period and then attacking Taiwan’s infrastructure with conventional forces.

China then would wait and see whether the U.S. carriers were deployed to defend Taiwan.

The report concluded that China could consider using EMP weapons against Taiwan’s electronic infrastructure or against U.S. carriers if a conflict breaks out in the Taiwan Strait.

“The minimization of military casualties on CVBG assets is calculated to lessen the likelihood of a U.S. nuclear response to a Taiwan strike employing nuclear EMP,” the report said. “The minimization of casualties on Taiwan is calculated to lessen the animosity among Taiwan’s population over forced reunification.”

Taiwan broke with mainland China after nationalist forces fled to the island when communists seized power in 1949.

The United States is bound by a 1979 law to prevent the forcible reunification of the island with the mainland, and China has said it is prepared to use force to claim the island.

Peter Pry, a former congressional aide who helped direct a commission on EMP several years ago, said the commission found that China plans for nuclear EMP strikes against the United States, as well as Taiwan and carrier forces, are part of its military doctrine and exercises.

“There is also evidence that China is developing, or has already developed, super-EMP nuclear weapons that generate extraordinarily powerful EMP fields, based partly on design information stolen from the United States,” Mr. Pry, president of the group EMPact America, said in an email.

Mark Stokes, a former Pentagon specialist on China's military, said the report’s details on high-powered microwave are new.

The same state-run institute, the China Academy of Engineering Physics, that makes China’s nuclear warheads is also a center of microwave weapons research, he said.

Microwave weapons would be used to shut down enemy radar, communications, computers and other electronics in an opening salvo. The weapons also could jam electronics of attacking aircraft and anti-radiation missiles, and as an anti-satellite weapon, degrade sensitive satellite electronic systems, he said.

Richard Fisher, a China military analyst, said EMP warheads are likely to be an option for China’s new DF-21D anti-ship ballistic missile for the purpose of attacking large U.S. Navy ships without inflicting immediate massive casualties.

“Less is known about the longer-term effects on personnel of this kind of radiation attack,” said Mr. Fisher, who is with the International Assessment and Strategy Center. “The more powerful nuclear-propelled neutron bomb was designed specifically for killing personnel without a massive blast.”
Old 07-22-2011, 04:13 PM
Preacherboy Preacherboy is offline
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I see you are really new here, that is cool! I'm glad you are here, there is all kinds of information out there. I'd suggest doing a search on EMP, it has been argued to death!

1. You'll want an older vehicle, without a bunch of computers and electronics
2. You will still want to have an extra points, condenser, and probably an extra alternator, battery, and starter.
3. Or you can get an older diesel vehicle with a manuael transmission and park the truck on some ramps. Pop the clutch while you are rolling down the ramps, should start right up even with no battery or alternator/generator. I have a m35a2, military 2.5 ton truck which will start up with a simple push or pull without batteries.
4. Or try to build a steel building and cross your fingers.

Personally, I know my truck will get me home from anything! It will start no matter what and it has no spark plugs or glow plugs!
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Old 08-01-2011, 01:06 PM
Paco96 Paco96 is offline
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If you have any notice at all.
Disconnect battery.
Ground frame or chassis to a spike set two feet into the ground.
Pray.

Not great but a positive chance.

Last edited by Paco96; 08-01-2011 at 01:10 PM.. Reason: add a line
Old 08-05-2011, 11:53 PM
Anlushac11 Anlushac11 is offline
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Im curious about battery. In the Future Weapons test things like electric power windows worked fine after EMP pulse but car would not start.

About 2min 19 sec
Old 08-06-2011, 12:01 AM
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Heres a real simple solution, go Diesel.
Or you can stock up on spare electronic components for your vehicle such as the microprocessor board and regulator, store these item in a metal box with steel wool gasket along the opening. They will be safe from an EMP and after its past you can install the good parts and be on your way.
The other way to protect against EMP is to harden your vehicle by running ALL of the wires inside full metal conduit and convert your 12 volt system to a floating 2 wire system which does not use the chassis as an electrical connection, again all electronic components must be 100% shielded.
A tough project for any vehicle, my FJ40 is about 80% shielded but not because of EMP but rather as protection against off road damage which could leave me stranded out in the very middle of nowhere.
Alan

Last edited by alan m; 08-06-2011 at 12:02 AM.. Reason: misspelled word
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Old 08-06-2011, 12:05 AM
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Most batteries are made to deliver atleast 180 amps at one time, an EMP will never reach that level so the battery is almost immune to the effect
Alanm
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Old 08-07-2011, 02:42 PM
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Essentially, when an EMP hits metal, it induces a current through that metal. Grounding is only of limited help. Unlike a lightning bolt, an EMP doesn't have a start point and an end point. It's not simply going from the blast zone to a ground, but rather inducing electrical current in metal that then seeks a ground from that point. This is the same principal that causes a magnet to induce electrical current in metal coils.

Your best bet is what is called a Faraday cage, which is essentially a mesh or layer of conductive material around the protected object. The cage itself should be grounded, and it's important that the cage be made of something conductive. What's important is that the cage basically absorbs the electromagnetic energy before it can reach the electronics, and then shunts the generated electricity into the ground.

For smaller devices like radios or computers, simply placing them inside of a cardboard box, then layering the outside of the box in aluminum foil or mylar, then placing that into another box and grounding the foil with a ground wire will be sufficient.

As for a car, I would recommend an older car. Things like alternators, batteries and such should be immune to an EMP since an electromagnetic pulse generates extremely high voltage, but relatively low amperage. A car that uses a carburetor rather than a fuel injector (which is controlled by a computer) is preferred.

If you want to protect an entire room, as was suggested surrounding the room entirely in metal is a solution. However, this needs to be done so that there are no gaps for the electromagnetic radiation to get through. Doors and walls need to be grounded as well as have no gaps in them. EMP can penetrate wood, glass, and other materials, so this room will have to have no windows, or have shutters that are grounded to the main structure and able to close. Such shutters should be kept closed unless you're sure there's no imminent attack.

Because of the difficulty in protecting something the size of a car, I would recommend looking into getting an "EMP proof car"...again, something that can easily withstand EMP merely because none of its components can be damaged by one.
Old 08-08-2011, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluewater43 View Post
Hi Folks,

Anybody know of any way to protect a vehicle from an EMP hit?

Know that we can put GPS, computers, & etc in metal boxes but I was wondering if there was any way to cover a SUV to protect it within reason.
There are three types of EMP, E1, E2, and E3. E1 and E2 seem to be the ones most deleterious to solid state electronics.

Here is a page that talks about the three, and some ideas on protection.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
Old 08-08-2011, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigsol81 View Post
Your best bet is what is called a Faraday cage, which is essentially a mesh or layer of conductive material around the protected object. The cage itself should be grounded, and it's important that the cage be made of something conductive. What's important is that the cage basically absorbs the electromagnetic energy before it can reach the electronics, and then shunts the generated electricity into the ground.
.
As I understand it, screening will not work against EMP; protection needs to be solid sheeting. A Faraday cage is used for more along the lines of Tempest protection...
Old 08-08-2011, 11:31 AM
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As I understand it, screening will not work against EMP; protection needs to be solid sheeting. A Faraday cage is used for more along the lines of Tempest protection...

I use the term "cage" loosely. The principal is the same, however. Shielding can have holes and still work, but they need to be smaller than the wavelength of the electromagnetic energy they're shielding against.
However, because an EMP has such a wide array of wavelengths released all at once (thus the 'pulse'), solid conduction is the best option.

A metal building is the best bet, with windows covered by metal shutters or at the very least a few layers of rounded fine-mesh metal screens. The thickness of the material doesn't matter much, as the electricity produced by an EMP interacting with metal is high voltage but low amperage, so there's little risk of thin materials being burned or melted. As far as I know, EMP works like most other radiation sources in that it is essentially line-of-sight based, so your metal building does not have to be air tight, it merely has to have a spot where no direct line of sight exists between the outside and the interior.

As for insulation on the floor, that's not really necessary if you're already inside the building. If the building is working as it should as an EMP shield, all electromagnetic energy will be absorbed and shunted into the ground before it even reaches the interior, making an insulated floor a moot point. A floor made of concrete should be sufficient. Arcing from the walls shouldn't be an issue, because electricity seeks the path of least resistance, and if the walls are grounded like they should be, then even traveling 100 feet through conductive steel is going to be easier than jumping a few feet through the air.
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Old 08-08-2011, 07:48 PM
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But the REAL question is...

If we are essentially electrically powered animals, and our concousness/soul/life force/life-energy is electrical in nature, does it also get damaged in an EMP?

What if a person is killed by a nuclear blast, would the EMP destroy the Soul/et-al also in the process before the soul can migrate to a different plane/dimension/energy level, often referred to as "heaven"??

I think I might have just crossed to the Dark Side... ? Moderator? Judgement call?
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Old 08-11-2011, 11:46 PM
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Check this out:
http://www.protectiongroup.com/Prote...s/1474-001.pdf
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Old 08-11-2011, 11:52 PM
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The car wouldn't start due to computer issues. Could be real damage but more likely just a glitch that would go away on reboot. Odds are pretty heavy that if they had disconnected the battery leads for a few seconds, shorted them together to drop any remaining capacitive charge and then reconnected the battery, the car would have started up.

If the battery were already disconnected the program wouldn't be resident in RAM and wouldn't get glitched to start with.
Old 09-27-2011, 01:23 PM
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I've spent the last three days reading up on EMP and protection. I looked at articles that I couldn't understand and googled to no end the redux of the same basic articles. I saw conflicting information and came out confused.

1) Is EMP similar in penetration effect to that of an air filled container being submerged in water? That is, any hole large enough to allow a specific wave length in it will "flood" the interior with damaging energized particles?

Specifically, I'm thinking of building a double car port that we need anyway, but I'd like to attempt to protect it from EMP to protect any electrical gear and the vehicles stored inside.

I'm not planning on running anything (water, electricity, etc.) at all to it. It will be a freestanding EMP bunker, that is if the garage doors can seal sufficiently. They will not be the roll up aluminum doors used on most car ports or garages.

With particular attention to detail and quality craftsmanship in building this structure the only chance of failure can be the doors. I think that this flaw can be fixed with grounding straps and door design. I'm thinking of doors that slide horizontally on rails that are strapped to the siding material and pull tight against the steel exterior when closed. And these two doors will be the only openings in the building.

Knowing that one of our three vehicles would always be parked inside would be great. Actually, two of them would be parked inside 99.9% of the time. Storage areas to hold generators, TVs, spare computers and parts, radios, etc. could be made of smaller faraday boxes for additional protection.

Doubly enclosed? Build a slab big enough to erect one steel carport. After making sure that it is fully enclosed via welding all seams build a second steel building over it and also weld the seams there.

Quality information seems to be lacking out there. I "think" that it can be done without breaking the bank.

Comments? Suggestions?

I've read all of the articles that I could find on EMP and faraday cages. There's really no need to repost unless for the sake of others out there.
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Old 09-27-2011, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REM View Post
1) Is EMP similar in penetration effect to that of an air filled container being submerged in water? That is, any hole large enough to allow a specific wave length in it will "flood" the interior with damaging energized particles?

Specifically, I'm thinking of building a double car port that we need anyway, but I'd like to attempt to protect it from EMP to protect any electrical gear and the vehicles stored inside.

I'm not planning on running anything (water, electricity, etc.) at all to it. It will be a freestanding EMP bunker, that is if the garage doors can seal sufficiently. They will not be the roll up aluminum doors used on most car ports or garages.

With particular attention to detail and quality craftsmanship in building this structure the only chance of failure can be the doors. I think that this flaw can be fixed with grounding straps and door design. I'm thinking of doors that slide horizontally on rails that are strapped to the siding material and pull tight against the steel exterior when closed. And these two doors will be the only openings in the building.

Knowing that one of our three vehicles would always be parked inside would be great. Actually, two of them would be parked inside 99.9% of the time. Storage areas to hold generators, TVs, spare computers and parts, radios, etc. could be made of smaller faraday boxes for additional protection.

Doubly enclosed? Build a slab big enough to erect one steel carport. After making sure that it is fully enclosed via welding all seams build a second steel building over it and also weld the seams there.

Quality information seems to be lacking out there. I "think" that it can be done without breaking the bank.

Comments? Suggestions?

I've read all of the articles that I could find on EMP and faraday cages. There's really no need to repost unless for the sake of others out there.
Essentially yes. If the EMP is of sufficiently short enough wavelength, a hole large enough would allow it in. It would be less than if it were not enclosed, so a certain amount might be permissible. Also any outside connections like you talked about would allow EMP inside.

Faraday cages are used when calibrating certain kinds of electronics. You and the equipment is inside and typically is powered off of a battery. This is partly the reason so many pieces of electronics diagnostic equipment can be powered by 12 volts. The cage itself has to block the intended frequencies by having holes smaller than the shortest wavelength you need to block. Any utility doors like a car shelter would have are unlikely to be sufficiently tight to stop EMP. No windows, and the slab would need a layer of wire mesh as well that could be attached to and grounded along with the structure for complete protection.

So with normal construction techniques, yeah it is prohibitively expensive and or outside the realm of what we can do to offer full EMP protection. The good news, though, is anything is probably better than none. Double buildings are unlikely to increase your protection that much, not to mention that sounds outrageously expensive. Were I wanting an EMP-resistant building I would probably choose a steel building, no windows, as tight sealing of doors as possible (swing out would be MUCH better than a roll-up, plus you can put wire mesh on them and use grounding straps to the walls), grounded rebar in the slab, and use wire mesh in any areas where the roof connects with the walls or where an open space exists. Solder or weld places together and connect a couple of ground rods to the structure.

Things to ponder, though, are is it really worth it to try and preserve non-hardened electronics? A second EMP event would wipe them out if you had any of it outside, and everything eventually needs spares that would be hard/impossible to get after. Also, with anything that uses electricity the power isn't coming back on soon if we have a major event and your generator (assuming a person has one) isn't designed for continuous long term use. TVs and radios are of limited use after an EMP event, no stations will be on the air, and entertainment is likely to be on the back burner of things you feel you need. When technology comes back, those items will be of limited value due to changes in standards so they likely wouldn't work anyway (think analog to digital conversion of your TV stations).

My advice is instead of pouring a lot of money and time into a maybe, use both to increase the amount of tools and knowledge you have that can be used with no access to current technology. A wood stove, bicycles, quality hand tools, books, knowing how to live in primitive conditions; six months after most electronics are dead, those will be way more valuable than a car or generator.
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