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Old 04-25-2011, 09:15 AM
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Default Knife vs Gun - 21 Foot Rule



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Realize the real dangers of a knife!
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Old 04-25-2011, 09:58 AM
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I have "taken" many a LEO in this type of challenge, it really amazes them how fast 21 feet can be covered.... I have been "BEATEN" BY 3 OUT OF ABOUT 25
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Old 04-25-2011, 10:12 AM
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Keep in mind that the 21 foot rule is not about equipment - knife, baton, gun etc. It's about action vs reaction time.
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Old 04-25-2011, 10:56 AM
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Great info..thx
Old 04-25-2011, 04:31 PM
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To be fair, taking on a small elderly asian man is usually a losing proposition...

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Old 04-25-2011, 06:17 PM
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Keep in mind that the 21 foot rule is not about equipment - knife, baton, gun etc. It's about action vs reaction time.
Exactly, but it kind of disproves the old don't bring a knife to a gunfight theory......
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Old 04-25-2011, 07:11 PM
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It is a very good example of how a crude weapon can overcome an advanced one with the individual being prepared.
Old 04-26-2011, 12:01 PM
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Action is faster than reaction. The results would be the same if both were wielding knives, guns, swords, or ICBMs.
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Old 04-26-2011, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robkenpo View Post
I have "taken" many a LEO in this type of challenge, it really amazes them how fast 21 feet can be covered.... I have been "BEATEN" BY 3 OUT OF ABOUT 25
So are you better off standing and shooting. Running for space or doing that sort of sideways movement like in the knife video.
Old 04-26-2011, 12:15 PM
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Exactly, but it kind of disproves the old don't bring a knife to a gunfight theory......
In general I have found snappy quotes are not actually proof of anything.
Old 04-26-2011, 12:43 PM
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This is called the [URL="http://www.ninjitsuonline.com/#/10-12-blog/4536171366"]Twiller drill. It was a topic researched by a Calf Highway Patrol officer many years ago. Danny Innisanto is in the video and he trained with Bruce Lee in JKD and he teaches kali. I usually carry a knife in stead of a handgun, but only because I train with it and I feel I would be better able to defend myself with a knife than a handgun. But I don't suggest you switch unless you train.
Old 04-26-2011, 12:50 PM
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In my Silat group, we have done this a number of times. The first time I saw it, I was shocked. You are actually better off empty hand fighting a knife wielder under 21 feet..as strange as that sounds.

Getting cut, is still better than being run through a blender.
Old 04-26-2011, 06:13 PM
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The 21 foot rule is roughly the max distance for an armed person (duty belt, nothing covering, from some type of tactical holster) to lose to a person armed with a knife intent on cutting him/her. The closer to 21' the more often a "defender" is able to clear leather making the knife attack more of a suicide run at that point.

From my training and experience if you plant yourself on the "X" and do not move more than a step (arms' reach/easily modified running course) you are more than likely to get cut (or marked up with a rubber knife covered in red lipstick).

However when the shooter sees what is going on and opts to begin rapid lateral movement (backing up makes you trip...) you up your odds of not only drawing and engaging your opponent with multiple rounds by up to 90%.

Another option I have seen as a DT Instructor is to not go for the gun and simply book it then transition to gun/taser/baton/knife. Both options require timing but both offer a much better "he had a knife so I killed him but I didn't get a scratch on me" rate of exchange.

The 21 foot rule is valid and a great training aid when you get someone who will always say "If they pull a knife/baton/stick/other melee weapon, I will just shoot them with my .46 Ultra-Mag." These are the guys who don't want to learn how to defend themselves with their hands (and feet).

It has never ceased to amaze me how people underestimate or over-estimate martial arts/defensive tactics, knives and batons. Usually it is the MA people who are willing to learn firearms and it is usually the firearms people who don't want to learn how to fight with their hands (and non-projectile weaponry).
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Old 04-27-2011, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hudson69 View Post
The 21 foot rule is roughly the max distance for an armed person (duty belt, nothing covering, from some type of tactical holster) to lose to a person armed with a knife intent on cutting him/her. The closer to 21' the more often a "defender" is able to clear leather making the knife attack more of a suicide run at that point.

From my training and experience if you plant yourself on the "X" and do not move more than a step (arms' reach/easily modified running course) you are more than likely to get cut (or marked up with a rubber knife covered in red lipstick).

However when the shooter sees what is going on and opts to begin rapid lateral movement (backing up makes you trip...) you up your odds of not only drawing and engaging your opponent with multiple rounds by up to 90%.

Another option I have seen as a DT Instructor is to not go for the gun and simply book it then transition to gun/taser/baton/knife. Both options require timing but both offer a much better "he had a knife so I killed him but I didn't get a scratch on me" rate of exchange.

The 21 foot rule is valid and a great training aid when you get someone who will always say "If they pull a knife/baton/stick/other melee weapon, I will just shoot them with my .46 Ultra-Mag." These are the guys who don't want to learn how to defend themselves with their hands (and feet).

It has never ceased to amaze me how people underestimate or over-estimate martial arts/defensive tactics, knives and batons. Usually it is the MA people who are willing to learn firearms and it is usually the firearms people who don't want to learn how to fight with their hands (and non-projectile weaponry).
Thanks for that. I was wondering what sort of variables there could be.

The other theory I have heard is finding cover before confronting knifey guy. Having to climb over or run around a car for example would have to seriously slow them down.
Old 04-27-2011, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BladeSmartNY View Post
YouTube - Too close - dont underestimate the knife

Realize the real dangers of a knife!
Got to show this to my friend who is an leo.
Old 04-27-2011, 08:42 AM
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''or marked up by a rubber knife covered in red lipstick''

I WANNA PLAY!!!
Old 04-27-2011, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
Keep in mind that the 21 foot rule is not about equipment - knife, baton, gun etc. It's about action vs reaction time.
Yes and no; part of reaction time is the time it takes to put your weapon into play. Sometimes you will save your life by using empty hand skills because it was quicker than trying to deploy your weapon.

Different kinds of holsters, sheaths, and their placements all have a different deployment time and a different accessibility difficulty level. A knife or gun under a long buttoned up coat takes much longer to deploy than the same weapon under a waist long buttoned up coat.
Old 04-27-2011, 06:40 PM
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did you notice that in every instance the LEO's back stepped when the attacker came at them.

Wouldn’t you want to go towards the attacker and close the distance thereby surprising the attacker?

I cannot control someone’s hands unless I am close enough to reach them.
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Old 04-27-2011, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Saint View Post
did you notice that in every instance the LEO's back stepped when the attacker came at them.

Wouldn’t you want to go towards the attacker and close the distance thereby surprising the attacker?

I cannot control someone’s hands unless I am close enough to reach them.
I think that might be due to training, but I'm not Mil or LEO so I might be talking out my ass
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Old 04-27-2011, 06:49 PM
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I think that might be due to training, but I'm not Mil or LEO so I might be talking out my ass
thats why I was wondering
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