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Old 04-20-2011, 09:21 PM
rextex rextex is offline
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A .22 may not be great for fighting zombies , but it will put a rabbit or squirrel in the pot!
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Old 04-20-2011, 09:48 PM
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A .22 is FAR more lethal than any round that the shooter is not prepared/willing to fire. If a .22 is what makes the women comfortable than that is the best weapon for them.
Old 04-20-2011, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by SaigaOwner View Post
I seen a video of a man being shot point blank at-least 6 or 7 times the 8th shot killed him and all the while he was fighting back. If you are bringing a gun to a fight bring enough gun, I don't know about you but I don't want someone fighting me while i'm trying to defend myself I want to end the ordeal quickly. Adrenalin is one hell of a natural drug and the bad guys will be full of it and it will take a lot more than a .22 to take one down effectively.
Sure sure, I've seen a video of a cop shooting a guy in Miami with a 9mm and the guy took 5 rounds before he was on top of the officer and they struggled for the gun. In the end the officer shot him one more time at point blank range and the guy slumped over dead.
This video was somewhat fueling a debate about officers wanting to switch to 40 cal or 45 cal guns because they felt incidents like this show that a 9mm is ineffective. Now, I also seen a video of some college kids shooting up some TV's out in some old gravel pits and a ricochet from a .22 pistol strikes one of the kids in the chest and he fell over dead. They said officially that he died during the ambulance ride but his friends said he was non responsive as soon as he fell to the ground. Turns out the bullet struck his heart.

So what do these videos prove? They prove that bullet placement is key and that any caliber weapon can be lethal or non lethal at any given time. I suspect in the case of the officer shooting the man with the 9mm that the bullets just did not strike any major organ. Now I'm not a doctor and I don't even know if there was a medical report published about the incident but I'm pretty sure that if a 9mm hits a heart, major artery, brain, etc that you will not be able to function no matter how much adrenaline is pumping through you.
I can however keep walking and fighting if the bullet enters me and I'm just basically bleeding and either adrenaline or drugs block out the shock of the pain.

Now if you take 2 guys who both are adept at shooting rifles and you place them at 300 yards apart and one has a .223 and one a .22, I'm willing to bet either one could look through the scope and make a killing shot.

I've never shot a man at 300 yards with a .22 but I have taken hogs at up to 200 yards with a .22 and if it can penetrate their tough hide I have no doubts as to what it could do to a human.
Almost every squirrel season since I was 10 I have hunted exclusively with a .22 and killed many many hogs in the areas I squirrel hunt.

Naysayers of the .22 can offer their opinions I don't mind at all, but I live it and breathe it so I know firsthand what it is capable of. I've probably put a couple hundred thousand rounds through a .22 in my lifetime and honestly there is no way of knowing for sure just how many times I've fired one but when I was a teenager we bought the 500 round boxes at Wal mart and I can remember going through an entire box sometimes in a single day and there were many of those days.
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Old 04-21-2011, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swgfanforlife View Post
Sure sure, I've seen a video of a cop shooting a guy in Miami with a 9mm and the guy took 5 rounds before he was on top of the officer and they struggled for the gun. In the end the officer shot him one more time at point blank range and the guy slumped over dead.
This video was somewhat fueling a debate about officers wanting to switch to 40 cal or 45 cal guns because they felt incidents like this show that a 9mm is ineffective. Now, I also seen a video of some college kids shooting up some TV's out in some old gravel pits and a ricochet from a .22 pistol strikes one of the kids in the chest and he fell over dead. They said officially that he died during the ambulance ride but his friends said he was non responsive as soon as he fell to the ground. Turns out the bullet struck his heart.

So what do these videos prove? They prove that bullet placement is key and that any caliber weapon can be lethal or non lethal at any given time. I suspect in the case of the officer shooting the man with the 9mm that the bullets just did not strike any major organ. Now I'm not a doctor and I don't even know if there was a medical report published about the incident but I'm pretty sure that if a 9mm hits a heart, major artery, brain, etc that you will not be able to function no matter how much adrenaline is pumping through you.
I can however keep walking and fighting if the bullet enters me and I'm just basically bleeding and either adrenaline or drugs block out the shock of the pain.

Now if you take 2 guys who both are adept at shooting rifles and you place them at 300 yards apart and one has a .223 and one a .22, I'm willing to bet either one could look through the scope and make a killing shot.

I've never shot a man at 300 yards with a .22 but I have taken hogs at up to 200 yards with a .22 and if it can penetrate their tough hide I have no doubts as to what it could do to a human.
Almost every squirrel season since I was 10 I have hunted exclusively with a .22 and killed many many hogs in the areas I squirrel hunt.

Naysayers of the .22 can offer their opinions I don't mind at all, but I live it and breathe it so I know firsthand what it is capable of. I've probably put a couple hundred thousand rounds through a .22 in my lifetime and honestly there is no way of knowing for sure just how many times I've fired one but when I was a teenager we bought the 500 round boxes at Wal mart and I can remember going through an entire box sometimes in a single day and there were many of those days.
Sorry you're not going to convince me that the .22 is a viable self defense option. Gangsters used the .22 but guess what they used them execution style. I would be stupid to trust my life to a .22 round when I don't know if one shot is going to kill that person or will it take 8 or 9? Plus .22 rounds are unreliable, do I want to get into a self defense situation and have one fail to fire because it was a dud, could stove pipe, any number of things could go wrong with the .22 and thats something I don't want to encounter. It would silly of me to consider the .22 when I have a pump shotgun.
Old 04-21-2011, 12:55 AM
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there are "types" of shooting which you might consider in your comparison. On the receiving end, it does not matter is your .22 bullets came from a rimfire case, fired from a 10/22 with a 30rd mag, or a centerfire case (.223) from an AR-15 with a 30 rd mag ... I'm keeping my head down. That's covering fire.

Now a single well placed .22lr inside a reasonable range is no less a hole than a single well placed .223 at the same range; different penetration and expansion, but they don't bounce off. That's called precise small arms fire. For PSAF, the primary advantage of the .223 is range, followed by heavier bullets, more energy, etc.

I'd feel better with .223 for PSAF, and I'd be fine with .22lr for cover fire, as well as PSAF at 100yds. I shoot IHMSA, and I've dropped 3/8" steel turkeys at 100yds using Winchester ammo and a 10" barreled Contender. A rifle would up the Velocity and Energy considerably.
Old 04-21-2011, 07:16 AM
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Waldlaeufer Waldlaeufer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greataxe View Post
I am considering getting a SIG 522 rifle to add to my small home defense battery. My wife and two teen daughters are on the small side and have little interest in shooting. The only good practical rifle they could use in a SHTF bug in/bug out situation is my AR shorty in .223. The pellet, BB and Airsoft guns we have may be useful for training, but of no use for defense.

I've thought about buying another AR .223 for them to use, but ammo is expensive to stockpile and more importantly, train with. Maybe an evil-looking .22 rifle that looks and shoots like a typical .223 would easier to train them with, and much cheaper to shoot. If they are less frightened to use it, they would probably be more effective with it if the time came.

Of course .22's are crummy defense rounds, but they kill more people in America than any other. Just the sight of a .22 copy weapon would be enough to fake-out most people. Anyone think I'm on the right track?
Since you will not get an original 552 (what is that thing with that fugly long barrel?????), go for a .22 LR.

The 552 is a short barreled version not such a piece of junk they sell in the US.



Last one --> 552.
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Old 04-21-2011, 07:32 AM
bearhawk bearhawk is offline
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I have a 22 that I have had since I was 8 years old, (71 now), Killed a lot of hogs with the little .22. I would like to have all the rounds that has went thru that gun. I believe a hog is harder to stop than a man. Yes, I can stop you with a .22 and pick the spot where it go's. Also never had a jam or misfire in my life. Pops
Old 04-21-2011, 07:43 AM
RazorCityDen RazorCityDen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greataxe View Post
Thanks for the opinions. I have an old Speedmaster .22 semiauto rifle, Ruger Single Six .22, and a Colt Ace .22 (that I practice with but would never trust my life with.) Think I'll go with a .22 drop-in conversion for my Bushmaster AR if I can get the interest level in the wife and kids up with what guns I've got now. Having another .223 AR later on for them to shoot would make more sense than a "tacti-cool" .22 rifle.
Good choice.
Old 04-21-2011, 07:59 AM
Adnihilo Adnihilo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oh Shoot View Post
An oft stated assertion, with absolutely no verifiable validity.

- OS
I agree, a .22 while being a small round and not effective for long distances on large (game), at close range in an urban setting (50m, ish) i can see the lowly .22 being a very effective round for changing the average persons mind about whatever activity they might be considering. No it does not have the stopping power of the larger caliber, but a .22 hitting the body anywhere, especially more than once will have the desired effect of changing most peoples minds.

and lets face it, there are more "average" people out there doing nefarious things than any other type.
Old 04-21-2011, 12:51 PM
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The 22lr can never do what the 223 does, but you could still use it for defense or whatever. Honestly, most people could do a lot more damage with a 10/22 than they could with a centerfire pistol - As long as it doesnt fail to fire. You'd want to use CCI ammo for the reliable primers.

Kel tec should be releasing a 30 round 22 magnum rifle this year. That would pretty much double the potency of the rounds over 22lr. .... Still no .223 by a long shot.
Old 04-21-2011, 09:23 PM
swgfanforlife swgfanforlife is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaigaOwner View Post
It would silly of me to consider the .22 when I have a pump shotgun.
I think your misunderstanding me to be honest. If your comparing a shotgun to a .22 for defensive purposes then I agree a shotgun is the superb weapon for up close and personal defense.
However in a shtf situation if you are armed with a shotgun and a raider is armed with a .22 and he sees you from say 150 yards away then your gonna be in a world of hurt. He would open fire on you from a distance your shotgun wouldn't be able to compensate for.

I admitted that I personally will carry one of my AK-47's in a shtf situation but I would never overload my wife with such a gun. the OP stated he had a wife and daughter I believe and that is why i say go for the .22 for his women to carry if it comes down to that. Much lighter gun, ammo can be carried in bulk without the massive weight, and in my opinion it is still a deadly gun capable of killing, maiming, etc.
He can carry somthing more powerful but for his women folk they would be more comfortable with something like a 10/22 with a few 30 round banana clips.
Not to mention when they set up a camp he can take the .22 out to hunt food and leave them at the camp with the more powerful weapon. The .22 will draw much less attention to their location when hunting and a lot less likely to draw attention from raiders or no good scally wags who might hear the shot of a higher caliber weapon.
Just saying!!

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Old 04-21-2011, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swgfanforlife View Post
I think your misunderstanding me to be honest. If your comparing a shotgun to a .22 for defensive purposes then I agree a shotgun is the superb weapon for up close and personal defense.
However in a shtf situation if you are armed with a shotgun and a raider is armed with a .22 and he sees you from say 150 yards away then your gonna be in a world of hurt. He would open fire on you from a distance your shotgun wouldn't be able to compensate for.

I admitted that I personally will carry one of my AK-47's in a shtf situation but I would never overload my wife with such a gun. the OP stated he had a wife and daughter I believe and that is why i say go for the .22 for his women to carry if it comes down to that. Much lighter gun, ammo can be carried in bulk without the massive weight, and in my opinion it is still a deadly gun capable of killing, maiming, etc.
He can carry somthing more powerful but for his women folk they would be more comfortable with something like a 10/22 with a few 30 round banana clips.
Not to mention when they set up a camp he can take the .22 out to hunt food and leave them at the camp with the more powerful weapon. The .22 will draw much less attention to their location when hunting and a lot less likely to draw attention from raiders or no good scally wags who might hear the shot of a higher caliber weapon.
Just saying!!

This is assuming you are going to be getting into gun battles, I would personally avoid conflict at every opertunity, A shotgun is good for self defense and hunting. I don't know where you are going that you'll need to lay down cover fire but where I live I doubt there will be much of that going on.

I'm not married so to me my choice would not be a .22.
Old 04-22-2011, 11:50 PM
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Been lurking for a while, thought I'd chime in on this one.

SHTF and HD are different scenarios.
HD means stopping a threat, in close quarters (i.e. your home).
The 22 is a poor man stopper. It may kill, but is not renowned for it's ability to incapacitate. Head shots will, but are you trusting yourself to get a head-shot, in possibly poor lighting, perhaps when you are half awake, scared and under stress? That's a heck of a gamble...
A shotgun, or centerfire round, is a much better option (let's add that it is 38 special and above). An AR is an excellent HD weapon. A shotgun, (perhaps a 20 gauger for the ladies?) loaded with buckshot, is even better. You may even try a lever gun. A 38 from a 16 inch barreled lever action is a nasty round, with very light recoil. Lever guns also offer a simple manual of arms.
Try a 22 conversion in your AR, see how that goes with your wife and daughter. 223 is a pretty light recoil round also. After they gain confidence in the platform while shooting 22LR, perhaps the jump to 223 will be manageable... You could provide them with a lightweight AR (wouldn't weigh more than a 22 version). Then you;d have another AR, platform compatibility, and with the conversion you'd have the ability to practice more, and perhaps small game gathering if SHTF.
A 22LR rifle is a great choice for SHTF, where you will be avoiding firefights (I suggest this always actually...), and where you will be keeping your distance from potential threats. A 22 is a pretty decent stand off round in that situ.
Whatever you choose, practice with it. Competence is more important that caliber every time.
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Old 04-23-2011, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greataxe View Post
<edited>
I am considering getting a SIG 522 rifle to add to my small home defense battery. Just the sight of a .22 copy weapon would be enough to fake-out most people.
Many Korean store owners successfully used .22s as a visual deterrent during the L.A. riots in '92. The mere sight of an armed homeowner/store owner is typically going to be enough to deter any would-be thief or robber hell-bent on stealing from you or causing bodily harm. Only hardcore (read: stupid) criminals would have the audacity to challenge an armed homeowner.

To answer the OP's question without going off-topic about the terminal effectiveness of the wimpy .22LR, IMO, i believe that a quality 20 gauge pump shotgun like a Remington 870 or Mossberg 500 loaded with buckshot or slugs is perfect for small-statured teenaged girls and grown women, and less money than a Sig
Old 04-23-2011, 12:18 AM
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When your about to make a choice go with the one that has better ergonomics. If that sig522 has the same layout as the sig556, they are great overall firearms with the exception of the mag release, you have to loosen the grip to reach out unless you have really long fingers .the s&w m&p 15-22 pistol is compact has an ar15 layout they also make a rifle version hope that helps
Old 04-23-2011, 04:34 AM
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A 22 lacks penetration so it doesn't do well turning cover into concealment.
Old 04-23-2011, 05:09 AM
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Youd better have both. I want more than 1 long gun in the house even if it is just buying everyone a 22.
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Old 04-23-2011, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by rextex View Post
A .22 may not be great for fighting zombies , but it will put a rabbit or squirrel in the pot!
Actually, a .22 might very well be a perfect weapon for zombie eradication. I certainly wouldn't want one for a stand-up shootout with hordes of zombies/infected while trying to get to a safe haven (ala - Romero, or Left4Dead), but it would be perfect for sniping them at close range around your safe house.
In practical terms: a person on PCP/extreme pain killers, or even pumped up on adrenaline, could be equated to a "zombie". People under the influence of these substances have been known to take multiple rounds from even heavy caliber weapons, and still keep coming. This was the reason for the military choosing the Colt 1911 - the Moro's in the Philippines would get hopped up on hash and other drugs, and they would just shrug off hits from the .38 Colt's in use at the time. For a while they issues old Colt Single Actions in .45 Colt, which were much better at stopping these natives. Usually a head shot from any caliber will end their rampage.
Old 04-23-2011, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by mtncharlie View Post
People under the influence of these substances have been known to take multiple rounds from even heavy caliber weapons, and still keep coming. This was the reason for the military choosing the Colt 1911 - the Moro's in the Philippines would get hopped up on hash and other drugs, and they would just shrug off hits from the .38 Colt's in use at the time. For a while they issues old Colt Single Actions in .45 Colt, which were much better at stopping these natives. Usually a head shot from any caliber will end their rampage.
the .45 was favored because the .38s&w wouldn't penetrate their shields and still cause a nasty wound. the 45LC was heavy enough to do that.
Old 04-23-2011, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtncharlie View Post
Actually, a .22 might very well be a perfect weapon for zombie eradication. I certainly wouldn't want one for a stand-up shootout with hordes of zombies/infected while trying to get to a safe haven (ala - Romero, or Left4Dead), but it would be perfect for sniping them at close range around your safe house.
In practical terms: a person on PCP/extreme pain killers, or even pumped up on adrenaline, could be equated to a "zombie". People under the influence of these substances have been known to take multiple rounds from even heavy caliber weapons, and still keep coming. This was the reason for the military choosing the Colt 1911 - the Moro's in the Philippines would get hopped up on hash and other drugs, and they would just shrug off hits from the .38 Colt's in use at the time. For a while they issues old Colt Single Actions in .45 Colt, which were much better at stopping these natives. Usually a head shot from any caliber will end their rampage.
I have found that Zombies really like to eat brains. I go to my butcher and buy cow brains for almost nothing. Then I put out the brains in the same area every night. Then I hide behind a trash can with a flashlight and wait for them to show up. I've taken them out with a marble to the head from my sling shot.... who needs a rifle, pistol or shotgun?
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