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Old 03-30-2011, 09:07 AM
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Whats the advantage of having a bullpup chambered in 7.62 or .223? I was thinking about a bullpup this morning while I was sitting on the hopper reading Shotgun News. I have had no intrest in buying a bullpup until recently when I checked the new gun fund and I have started running out of ideas for guns I dont have.

The question is what is the advantage to having a bullpup? Things I dont like, is it looks tooooooo European and awkward to use!

Opinions would be greatly appreciated!! Thanks ahead of time, Joe
Old 03-30-2011, 01:10 PM
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Here are the reasons why I like bullpup over conventional rifles.

1) Size-my PS90 is a little over 26" OAL and my RFB is shy of 28" OAL. That short compact size is very useful for dismounting a vehicle and for clearing rooms. Even if you SBR'd say an AR15 to 10", you lose so much velocity since you are chopping it at least 6" from legal length...you must pay the $200 tax stamp to have it SBR'd and you lose velocity...only thing you gain is a shorter AR15.

2) Some bullpups offer you true ambi features. My RFB and PS90 are true ambi...the safety switch can be used on either hand...my PS90 has a dual charging handle, so it doesn't matter which hand you are using. The RFB only has one charging handle, but you can switch it to left/right side.

3) You don't get brass flying around and hitting your face or other body parts. On my PS90 my brass drops below...I even have a brass catcher, so I don't have to chase brass after I fire my weapon. On the RFB, it has a chute that spits the brass forward.

4) Weight is distributed evenly on bullpups...my RFB isn't light, but most of the weight is on the back side, so when you shoulder the weapon, it doesn't feel that heavy. On my PS90...with optics and 50rd mag...it's very light...you can fire that weapon one handed if you wanted to do so.

I like that I can conceal the PS90 with little effort...I am leaning towards SBR'ing my PS90 to really take advantage of the size...since my OAL will be roughly 20" once it's been SBR'd.

On most bullpups the weak link is the bad triggers. The RFB has the best trigger of the bullpups that I have tested.
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Old 03-30-2011, 01:18 PM
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I have an AK I'm building with a Bullpup kit, they are more compact or you can use a larger barrel in the same size package. I shoot lefty so this might not work out as planned. The AMD sheetmetal foregrip/handguard would make them fairly easy to build with out a kit, but for this one I bought the centefire kit, 922 compliance parts and bought a registered reciever so I can sell it more easily in case I really don't like it. The PS90 is a nice weapon, everyone I've met who has shot one always says good things. I'll have about $320 into the AK building it myself. I think If I can make a few bucks on it, I may put that toward a P90
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Old 03-30-2011, 03:31 PM
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The only thing I don't like about bullpups is that they're not too common. Parts availability makes me hotter than a new set of purdy snow tires. Oh, golly do I have parts.....
Anyhoo, I had a Bushmaster bullpup once. Solid piece. Slightly innovative as well. Accurate enough for 200 yard chuck popping.
I found it a new loving home and run an AR.
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Old 03-30-2011, 05:42 PM
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Thats the problem I have is parts also. I have an ar and a ak it would be nice to have another toy chambered in either.

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Old 03-30-2011, 06:35 PM
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I've been eyeballin and thinking about an fs2000 for awhile now. It is hard for me to justify dropping 2 grand on a 5.56 rifle when I have a bushmaster carbine with enough spare parts i could build another rifle with a barrel and lower, and have the tools and knowledge to do it.

All that being said, I will probably end up with one one day.
Old 03-30-2011, 09:26 PM
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You can buy the FS2000 for much less than 2k...I believe CDNN has them for 1,400-1,500...the FS2000 just aren't selling for FN.

People put way too much emphasis on having enough parts to rebuild X amount of firearms...do you same people that have all of these parts have thousands and thousands of rounds to feed those same weapons? There are so many AR15s out there in private hands right now...if something bad happens...do you think you are the only person on the planet that will have an AR15? If your answer is no...why worry about having so many spare parts? There will be more firearms available than one can imagine...it's the lack of ammo that will get people...not the lack of parts.
Old 03-30-2011, 09:53 PM
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Frankly I have never liked the looks of most bullpup designs. while saying that some have had intriguing designs, but have fallen short in other areas.

P90 series is probably one of the most comfortable weapons but pistol calibers do more damage. It was realitvely ambi in design.

Steyer - I didn't like the feel. but they went for the ambi card

FS2000 - was to much gerth and bulk to comfortably work for me, and that retaining spent shells area...... I heard about issues, but I CAN'T confirm them. It just didn't feel good to me.

Frankly though it came down to one big thing, most bullpups did nothing better then a standard design besides sit in a car easily. Although my folded AKs were just as easy to manipulate, so I didn't see a advantage. Beyond that in buildings etc I don't see a advantage or rush to them for anything. If they were that much better I think people would start grudgingly giving them far more market, but maybe not.

munchie3409 - I have yet to pick up a weapon that is beyond the 22 that has ever flung brass in my face with rifles, I don't think that is a issue since I am left handed and nearly everything ejects toward my face.

Also loosing vilocity when you get into SBRs usually isn't a big issue. I agree you loose some, but most of the weapons that are SBRed are for urban use, or even dense trees. Although I get your argument with it. Like I said as well I don't agree that its easier inside a building. I think they are about the same.
Old 03-31-2011, 09:07 AM
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I am left eye dominate and right handed...when I was in the Army I was taught to shoot left handed and I can tell you on several occasions I had hot brass hitting my hands. Have you taken a course and you had to shoot left handed (I know you said you are left handed)...around a corner, you will have hot brass deflect off the wall and it will come back at you. Try laying down sideways and shooting your AR/AK...you will see what I am referring to...if you have to clear a room and everyone is using an AR/AK..you are going to hit your buddy to your right side.

The whole argument about the bullpup not being popular is a silly one. Why do you think when you go to any gun forum that the majority of threads consist of "what glock or AR15" to get? Is it because those platforms are superior to everything else out in the market??? No it's because new shooters that don't know any better come to forums to get info and all they see is Glock this and AR that...while the Glock and AR function...they are not the "best thing since sliced bread."

This is coming from a guy that has owned 8 Glocks and over 10 AR15/10, so you aren't talking to someone that does not know anything about the above mentioned platforms. The fact is while they work, they aren't for everyone...just like bullpups are not for everyone. I could care less "what it looks like" I care about function over looks any day of the week.

To me losing velocity is a huge deal. If you chop a barrel that was 16" and you go down to 10" that is a huge loss in velocity...especially when you are talking about the PS90 because max range for that caliber would be 200 yards. With a 6" loss of barrel length that would make the difference between not being able to hit your target at 200 yards. Also, with that most loss of velocity, one must be concerned about having enough speed to allow for fragmentation. If you reload, you can customize your loads to offset that issue.

I probably will SBR my PS90 since I have the RFB as well...a 20" OAL rifle would be great for buildings and vehicles.

With your AKs that have folding stocks...it still requires time to deploy that stock...I doubt your enemies are going to allow you the time to deploy the stock in a gun fight. Some rifles allows you to fire the weapon with the stock folded, but lets be honest, it's uncomfortable shooting that way. Just look at the Draco, KT PLR 22/16 and any pistol that uses a centerfire caliber. I owned the PLR 22/16...it's just tough to get a good sight picture due to the weight of the mag on the pistol.

Just remember that when the M16 was introduced many hated the design...and now look at it today. I'm not here to try to convince anyone to jump on the bullpup bandwagon...I am just giving you my experience since I've owned pretty much everything that has been offered.

I don't mind testing out different platforms since I want to get equipment that works best for my needs/wants. Even my friend is looking at the RFB since I let him shoot mine...I am prior service and my friends have never served...I find the guys that don't serve are typically the ones that jump on the bandwagon of the internet. My other friend also wants an RFB for his primary rifle. The only issue is finding them in stock.
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Old 03-31-2011, 12:17 PM
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I'm not going to bicker over the semantics over little brass flying places. It would be like arguing all the brass finding your feet will make you slip and fall on your rear. Like I said I haven't gotten much brass in the face and yes I have had a brass fly into me rarely has it hit me in the face for reasons other than obstructions. The only weapon I can think of that will drop the brass is from FN such as the P90 and I think the 2000. Also the whole barrel thing..... If you are tight stacked with bullpups it will happen as well. SBRs have the same problem and are of comparable lengths.

To be utterly frank, most major sales come from opinions based on the military using that item, or some law enforcement agency. With that said two things always happen to weapons that fail to meet standards. They either fade from existence or complained about. There've been tons of complaints about the effectiveness of the P90, just like there was for the M-16. The M-16 was forced into service by politics and the lack of having anything better suited for the role it was intended for. Luckily for the M-16 family people listen to the issues finally and fixed most of them. It wasn't the design that was the issue (although it was talked about a bit) it was the unreliable nature of the rifle at the time.

Yet again were getting into semantics about unfolding a stock versus it already being a stock. To be overly Frank if like debating whether an M-16 reload or an AK-47 reload is faster. The point is nearly moot because that fraction of a second difference nearly doesn't exist for trained professional, and his threat and location specific in its detriment. Depending on who you are and what you're doing egressing a vehicle doesn't matter.

Last I understand the P90 is a 200 yard weapon cutting down a a PDW rounds velocity hurts it alot more then a Assualt rifle caliber. 5.56. 7.62x39 retains a fair amount of energy at 800 yards, and while you may loose some accuracy at 400-600 with a SBR the right round in the right barrel is still acceptible. I am sure you wont appreciate this but the difference between the 5.7 and pistol calibers isn't that much. They both are highly effected by barrel length. I do agree any cut down will reduce the quality of impact, and the bullpups win in that, but it isn't as a high concern for some calibers as others.

I think you are a good guy I think your blindly wrong about the P90 being exceptional or the round as we have fought over before, but your points aren't wrong. The bullpup especially the p90 has smart design features and a interesting setup. I think the biggest issue with taht weapon frankly is the round, other then that its a good weapon, slim workable. The other bullpups you have talked about I don't prefer, and many others don't. Just don't take this as a attack on you, I appreciate what you have to say, but I think you are coming at this from a wrong angle. Then again I might be as well since you obviously love them, and I have a bad taste for them. Gives the OP more to think about at least.
Old 03-31-2011, 12:35 PM
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I'm in the same boat here... i would go with the RFB except for the fact that I already have 2 expensive 308s (SA M1A NM and DSA SA58)... I recently saw an add for a newer quad rail AK74 bullpup; this piqued my interest because I have a cheapo 5.45 x 39 by CAI that I really love. I can probably safely assume that the trigger will suck, which makes me want to go back to the RFB, but the difference in $$$ will probably force my hand on that one.
Old 03-31-2011, 12:39 PM
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I'm in the same boat here... i would go with the RFB except for the fact that I already have 2 expensive 308s (SA M1A NM and DSA SA58)... I recently saw an add for a newer quad rail AK74 bullpup; this piqued my interest because I have a cheapo 5.45 x 39 by CAI that I really love. I can probably safely assume that the trigger will suck, which makes me want to go back to the RFB, but the difference in $$$ will probably force my hand on that one.
actually i believe that ak74 bullpup u mentioned is a century build, i just saw one on some shot show coverage a while back, then again i could be wrong, the one u saw might be a different build
Old 03-31-2011, 01:30 PM
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Bullpups are just like everything else in the world...some will like them and some will not. As I stated many times...I've owned plenty of firearms and I have concluded that the bullpup platform works well for me. I just find that you are so against them and I'm not sure why...do you own stock in AR/AK companies that you have this hatred for bullpups? I get it you don't like them...and you get the fact that I do like them. There is nothing wrong with having different opinions...it's just that when I reply to a thread question, it's because I have experience with the subject matter. I didn't read an article online about it and based my opinions on that article. My opinions are based on experience.

My reply in bold.

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I
Last I understand the P90 is a 200 yard weapon cutting down a a PDW rounds velocity hurts it alot more then a Assualt rifle caliber. 5.56. 7.62x39 retains a fair amount of energy at 800 yards, and while you may loose some accuracy at 400-600 with a SBR the right round in the right barrel is still acceptible. I am sure you wont appreciate this but the difference between the 5.7 and pistol calibers isn't that much. They both are highly effected by barrel length. I do agree any cut down will reduce the quality of impact, and the bullpups win in that, but it isn't as a high concern for some calibers as others.I don't see the 223 or 7.62x39 being used at 800 yards, but that's just me.

Losing 6"+ worth of velocity is huge weather that is with a 5.7, .223, 9mm...etc etc. If you don't have enough velocity, you will not get the desired fragmentation out of your bullets.




I think you are a good guy I think your blindly wrong about the P90 being exceptional or the round.I never once claimed that the 5.7 was better than anything else in the market...as you did in earlier posts, those are your words not mine. Please go back and read all of my threads in regards to the 5.7...not once have I ever stated that the 5.7 was superior to anything out there...I just said that there is a lot of BS myths about the caliber. You along with many that dislike the 5.7 center around that article that was written over 10 years ago. If you take a look at what the 5.7 can do and has done you will see that it's not some rimfire caliber. I've seen th 5.7 take down hogs, which are pretty tough animals...I've seen 5.7 on armour and on flesh...looks like it wouldn't be a fun caliber to be shot by, but that's just me.
Old 03-31-2011, 02:04 PM
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The big advantage to a bullpup is it's compact size. There has been a new fad of chopping barrels short to try to get a rifle that's more compact. All this does is reduce velocity and sight radius and the gun is still long. Cutting off 4 inches doesn't really change a heckuva lot as far as length or weight either.

Whereas a bullpup can be right at the minimum legal length and still have a full length barrel. Bullpups also have a unique rearward weight balance to them. This makes them shoulder and point faster than just about any other gun.

But there are downsides too. There is less forend to grip, less sight radius, and that rearward weight bias is not conducive to stability for long distance shooting without MUCH training and practice. Also, most bullpup designs have absolutely horrid triggers because of the linkages involved. Kel-Tec seems to have overcome that in their new RFB.

So the concept isn't for everyone. Expect some serious retraining. I like them myself and am currently waiting to get a RFB when the model I want comes out.
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Old 03-31-2011, 02:18 PM
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The big advantage to a bullpup is it's compact size. There has been a new fad of chopping barrels short to try to get a rifle that's more compact. All this does is reduce velocity and sight radius and the gun is still long. Cutting off 4 inches doesn't really change a heckuva lot as far as length or weight either.

Whereas a bullpup can be right at the minimum legal length and still have a full length barrel. Bullpups also have a unique rearward weight balance to them. This makes them shoulder and point faster than just about any other gun.

But there are downsides too. There is less forend to grip, less sight radius, and that rearward weight bias is not conducive to stability for long distance shooting without MUCH training and practice. Also, most bullpup designs have absolutely horrid triggers because of the linkages involved. Kel-Tec seems to have overcome that in their new RFB.

So the concept isn't for everyone. Expect some serious retraining. I like them myself and am currently waiting to get a RFB when the model I want comes out.
i agree, i didnt realize how short the new kel tec KSG is until i saw a vid of it being shot, its shorter than any 18 inch barrel pump or semi with more capacity, also interestingly enough the manual selector that changes between the mag tubes means by law it is a weapon with two 7 round mags unstead of one 14rd mag, this makes it legal in states it otherwise wouldnt be if it cycled between mag tubes automatically when one runs dry. sorry for the rambling it just felt like the subject fits

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Old 03-31-2011, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
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i agree, i didnt realize how short the new kel tec KSG is until i saw a vid of it being shot, its shorter than any 18 inch barrel pump or semi with more capacity, also interestingly enough the manual selector that changes between the mag tubes means by law it is a weapon with two 7 round mags unstead of one 14rd mag, this makes it legal in states it otherwise wouldnt be if it cycled between mag tubes automatically when one runs dry. sorry for the rambling it just felt like the subject fits
What states have regulations on the capacity of pump action shotguns?
Old 03-31-2011, 06:57 PM
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Bullpups are just like everything else in the world...some will like them and some will not. As I stated many times...I've owned plenty of firearms and I have concluded that the bullpup platform works well for me. I just find that you are so against them and I'm not sure why...do you own stock in AR/AK companies that you have this hatred for bullpups? I get it you don't like them...and you get the fact that I do like them. There is nothing wrong with having different opinions...it's just that when I reply to a thread question, it's because I have experience with the subject matter. I didn't read an article online about it and based my opinions on that article. My opinions are based on experience.

My reply in bold.
whatever you do do not mention the 7.62x25 round in any sense, whether related to the thread or not!!
Old 03-31-2011, 07:31 PM
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Quite a few bullpup's have reliability issues. A quality bullpup will probbly cost the same as 2 standard firearms and a nice 40lb carton of ammo in the mail. Compact arms have been around for quite some time in the military. The only part that catches on is folding stocks. Otherwise, the long time trend is a shorter barrel standard carbine. Also, if you choose to use irons, bullpups have very short sight radius. Roughly between 1/2 and 1/3 of the typical military rifle sight radius.

Also, what if you really needed to shoot with the other hand. Such as you injured one hand or working around cover / concealment, like a corner of a building. A bullpup will be hitting brass in your face with every round. With exception to certain expensive bullpup designs.

I am left handed and do not own a single left handed firearm. I also practice using both hands close to equally.

How compact do you need a fiream to be. If you want a teeny tiny gun, consider purchasing a folding stock. Be mindful though, some folding stocks end up giving you a rather poor cheek weld. Not to mention some hve some slop to it and look like they can break easily. I think krebs makes a real nice AK folder. For AR platforms. I think a folder isn't a wise choice due to the recoil spring tube. Better off getting a collapsable stock for them.
Old 03-31-2011, 07:33 PM
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There are states with capacity limitations. Like NY, if they detachable. Mass has one. Pretty sure NJ has one too. Probably sometime down the road, the magazine extension tubes will be illegal up here. One fishy incident and they're close to toast.
Old 03-31-2011, 09:55 PM
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This is why these threads go down the toilet...people make up things as they go along...it would be one thing if you actually have used bullpups and you still do not like them, but it's pretty clear that many folks have never even handled a bullpup yet owned one. From the looks of it...these same people rule out the bullpup based on price alone. You say the bullpup isn't up to par, and yet you say get an AK with a folder...I've owned plenty of AKs...I am not that impressed with them...if I were, I'd probably have a dozen of them based on price alone. If the AK works for your needs/wants...cool. You live in NY, so you don't get nearly as many options as the rest of us that live in "free" states. I know I wouldn't want to dish out the coin for a PS90 and be restricted to 10rd mags...that to me would be a huge waste of money.

ETA: My biggest push towards buying the PS90 is that my wife does not shoot very often...I wanted to have a rifle that was light enough for her to use and one that had mild recoil. The PS90 with optics and 50rds is still lighter than the AR15s that I have owned. If you think the AR15 has light recoil (which I do)...you should try the PS90...it's so mild...even small children can fire this weapon. I also like that I have 50rds on tap and ready to go...that is nearly a 2:1 ratio on mag changes...I don't know how many fights I will encounter that will require more than 50rds, but I'm happy that I have it ready to go.

Quote:
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Quite a few bullpup's have reliability issues. Since you make these bold statements...which bullpups are you referring to about reliability issues? I do not hear about issues with FN made bullpups...IE the PS90 and the FS2000. I belong to FN forums and I do not see owners of these two bullpups having reliability issues. The RFB has been out for roughly (2) years and there aren't enough out in the market, but I can tell you that RFB owners for the most part have not had issues with the RFBs. I am still in the process of running more rounds down the barrel to break in my RFB...at only 230rds, I am very happy with what I am seeing thus far...I just want to make sure I have more rounds down range before I will use it as my primary rifle. A quality bullpup will probbly cost the same as 2 standard firearms and a nice 40lb carton of ammo in the mail. Compact arms have been around for quite some time in the military. The only part that catches on is folding stocks. Otherwise, the long time trend is a shorter barrel standard carbine. Also, if you choose to use irons, bullpups have very short sight radius. Roughly between 1/2 and 1/3 of the typical military rifle sight radius.

Also, what if you really needed to shoot with the other hand. Such as you injured one hand or working around cover / concealment, like a corner of a building.You can fire the PS90 one handed since it's very light...it is a true ambi weapon...there is a charging handle on both sides and the mag release is ambi as well, so use whichever charging handle isn't injured in your scenario. Try doing that with an AK/AR. A bullpup will be hitting brass in your face with every round. With exception to certain expensive bullpup designs.Once again...which bullpups are you referring to...you make these statements without backing up your points. I don't know what your definition of "expensive" is so I cannot determine which bullpups you are talking about...the only sub $1,000 bullpup is the discontinued Bushmaster M17s..and in order for you to get it up to par, you will be dumping an additional $750. I know that my PS90 and my RFB will not spit brass in my face...that is the beauty of some bullpups...the FS2000 will also not do this to you.

I am left handed and do not own a single left handed firearm. I also practice using both hands close to equally.

How compact do you need a fiream to be. If you want a teeny tiny gun, consider purchasing a folding stock. Folding stocks aren't the same as having a rifle in the ready position. It takes time to deploy that folding stock. As you already pointed out...some folders do not offer a good cheek weld...IE the Yugo underfolder comes to mind. Be mindful though, some folding stocks end up giving you a rather poor cheek weld. Not to mention some hve some slop to it and look like they can break easily. I think krebs makes a real nice AK folder. For AR platforms. I think a folder isn't a wise choice due to the recoil spring tube. Better off getting a collapsable stock for them.From your statement it does not appear that you know anything about ARs since you are not going to be able to use a folding stock with a DI AR15.
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