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Old 03-13-2011, 08:39 PM
Nvncibl Nvncibl is offline
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Default What can be substituted for Licocaine?



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I've been watching a lot of video's on laceration suturing and it's very interesting, with all the endless technique's and knots. There are so many ways to close a laceration that I have a new admiration for the med pro's !! I plan to get a few pigs legs and do some practicing, after I get some sutures of fleebay. They're pretty cheap, once they have expired.

Anyway.... knowing how to suture a laceration is all well and good but it's not going to be much fun for the recipient without any anesthetics. I've checked online and it looks like there are tons of fake "licocaine" sites that just want to take your money and send you some snake oil in a vial or tube.

I know there are plenty of medical pro's in here, so I ask you - Is there a good substitute for 1% lidocaine, with or without Epinephrine, that I can mix up myself in an emergency? If there is a solution already out there for us non-med types, what's it called?

Disclaimer: I'm not a druggy looking to get numb, head to toe. I'm just trying to create the best emergency med bag that I can, legally.

Thanks in advance.
Old 03-13-2011, 08:48 PM
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I would try super glue instead of stitching. or something along that line. Create a seal to keep backteria out and would work to hold the skin together.
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Old 03-13-2011, 08:59 PM
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Lido is a complex compound and w/ epinephrine thrown in (as a vasoconstrictor to reduce blood flow) it's even harder to "create" in a lab or more likely a kitchen.

I 2nd the call for Super Glue. Keep in mind the deep laceration or incision needs to be closed in layers. You can achieve this w/ Superglue by a thin layer deep in the wound and placing some pressure to close the deepest section first. Once that's set, lay a 2nd layer and repeat. and so on. Typically in a surgical environment, they will make a 2-3 layer closure with sutures depending on the depth of the incision. With the variables involved with having to do this yourself, I would irrigate with alcohol or a gallon of cooled boiled water and then begin to close each layer.
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Old 03-13-2011, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Brox View Post
I 2nd the call for Super Glue...

ehhhh, not so fast

For a superficial wound that could be taken care of with a band-aid, and you absolutely for some strange reason don't want to use a band-aid, then superglue might be a poor, but viable option. But why bother?

First, super-glue isn't dermabond. Totally different animal. If you glop a bunch of super-glue into a wound the edges will not be able to approximate to one another and will not be able to form tissue across the wound because... well, it is filled with a bunch of plastic resin

I would suggest doing a wet-to-dry especially for large or deep wounds and then seeking medical help

You would be SHOCKED at the wounds that I have stuck my hands into that slowly heal themselves up with proper dressing techniques.

Super-glue, not so much. Besides, if you fill a large wound with glue you are asking for a large resin mass to then be excised out and then you have a large fibrous scar, abscess, or some other major health complications much worse than the first wound.

Super-glue is kinda a wive's tale for wounds. See if you can abscond some dermabond somewhere or learn wound care techniques, don't just add glue to the problem. Glue would only be good for something that you really didn't need to treat much anyhow.

PS - Oh Yeah! I forgot. As for a topical analgesic, lidocaine et al, are not overly useful until they are injected as a block. I would suggest oral analgesics then follow up with wart remover cold spray, but go gently! You don't want to do more harm than good and damaging the blood vessels isn't going to help healing and make whatever you are doing playing around suturing it much worse than just leaving it open until you get to medical help.
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Old 03-13-2011, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcamper View Post
I would try super glue instead of stitching. or something along that line. Create a seal to keep backteria out and would work to hold the skin together.
It can also keep bacteria in. I have intimate knowledge of this. I thought I was really cool by super gluing a wound closed and not getting stitches. I ended up with a nasty infection and some outpatient surgery to remove damaged tissue.

I don't have a better suggestion. I'm not saying don't use super glue if butterfly sutures don't work or aren't available. I guess my point is...wash it extremely well, let it drain if possible/necessary, and keep an watchful eye on it.
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:06 PM
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You could try oragel. Has benzocaine in it.
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:13 PM
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propofal, the micheal jackson juice, but good luck getting it its a semi-controled substance.

but same idea anything that knocks someone out so you can operate on them.......whiskey?
Old 03-13-2011, 10:45 PM
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Good replies all !! Thanks for the info.

Lacerations are a nasty problem. I just want to be able to help myself, my family and my friends if the SHTF and there's no doc in our group or nearby. I have several family members in the medical field but they are not of the prepper mind and will most likely not be joining me if it did HTF. I'll just have to stock up on the few sugestions that are available OTC.
Old 03-13-2011, 10:48 PM
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I just ordered from one of those off shore companies i have 2% injectable lidocane and some other pharms on the way i'll let you know how it goes!

Note! Prescription drugs are prescription for a reason Lidocaine can kill if administered improperly you need to know the dosage, how to administer and contraindications for use
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:48 PM
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Another reason for me wanting to learn more about this stuff...

I recently took my knife sharpening to a whole new level by adding a combo wet stone to the mix. It's a 1000/6000 grit combo and did an amazing job on my Benchmade folder. I read a lot of how-to's and after spending 45 minutes on it, I was fairly pleased. Two days later I cut my thumb open from side to side. The max depth was just over a 1/4". Can you say SURPRISE ??!!?? I was working on my car's engine and needed to cut a hose off a fitting. Like a dummy, I slipped and the rest is history. I have insurance with a medium low co-pay but it was nearing 11pm and I didn't want to sit in an ER or medcenter for hours just to get a few stitches. I've had serious cuts on my hands before and know that skin has an amazing talent for self-sealing very quickly IF you close the wound quickly and keep is closed and clean for a week or so. It was tough keeping it closed, being just forward of the thumbs front knuckle (closest to the nail), on the bottom side. It let me know, in a loud way, every time I flexed the thumb too far open. It's completely healed now, externally, but I've noticed that there is some loss of sensation over that area. I'm not sorry I skipped the doctor visit but maybe I missed something they might have done differently.
Old 03-13-2011, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rugster View Post
I just ordered from one of those off shore companies i have 2% injectable lidocane and some other pharms on the way i'll let you know how it goes!

Note! Prescription drugs are prescription for a reason Lidocaine can kill if administered improperly you need to know the dosage, how to administer and contraindications for use
Cool. I hope you get what you ordered. I've read some bad reviews of online Rx sites.

I've read that some people have bad allergic reactions to anesthetics. This can be tested in advance but in a post SHTF scenario, that would be hard to do. I like the topical cream idea but that will only work with mild lacerations.
Old 03-13-2011, 11:22 PM
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This is in case of a SHTF worst case no doctor, hospital gonna have to do it ourselves situation! Imagine having to deal with an abscessed tooth or cleaning/suturing a deeply wound frankly i hope the stuff goes bad unused I say the same about my potassium iodine tablets.


I used a prepaid visa i'll see how it goes this is my 100.00 experiment
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Old 03-14-2011, 03:52 AM
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I can start IVs (I have a basic kit with the set-ups) and learned basic suturing and can administrator a local. But, I am smart enough to know my limitations and realize I'm out of my area of expertise if it's a bad wound.

But that's why we have a Dentist, Nurse Practitioner, a PA, a Vet (don't laugh- they can do a lot), three RNs and two Paramedics in our group. I wish we had a Trauma doc, but not yet.
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Old 03-14-2011, 03:53 AM
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Default anestethic

In the old days one of the kill pain items used was Clove Oil.
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Old 03-14-2011, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rugster View Post
I just ordered from one of those off shore companies i have 2% injectable lidocane and some other pharms on the way i'll let you know how it goes!

Note! Prescription drugs are prescription for a reason Lidocaine can kill if administered improperly you need to know the dosage, how to administer and contraindications for use
Can you post the link to the company that you ordered from?
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Old 03-14-2011, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michigan_RN View Post
ehhhh, not so fast

For a superficial wound that could be taken care of with a band-aid, and you absolutely for some strange reason don't want to use a band-aid, then superglue might be a poor, but viable option. But why bother?

First, super-glue isn't dermabond. Totally different animal. If you glop a bunch of super-glue into a wound the edges will not be able to approximate to one another and will not be able to form tissue across the wound because... well, it is filled with a bunch of plastic resin

I would suggest doing a wet-to-dry especially for large or deep wounds and then seeking medical help

You would be SHOCKED at the wounds that I have stuck my hands into that slowly heal themselves up with proper dressing techniques.

Super-glue, not so much. Besides, if you fill a large wound with glue you are asking for a large resin mass to then be excised out and then you have a large fibrous scar, abscess, or some other major health complications much worse than the first wound.

Super-glue is kinda a wive's tale for wounds. See if you can abscond some dermabond somewhere or learn wound care techniques, don't just add glue to the problem. Glue would only be good for something that you really didn't need to treat much anyhow.

PS - Oh Yeah! I forgot. As for a topical analgesic, lidocaine et al, are not overly useful until they are injected as a block. I would suggest oral analgesics then follow up with wort remover cold spray, but go gently! You don't want to do more harm than good and damaging the blood vessels isn't going to help healing and make whatever you are doing playing around suturing it much worse than just leaving it open until you get to medical help.
Good post;

now follow up questions

Are you suggesting injecting the oral analgesics? or just rubbing them into the wound?

Also; what is the purpose of wort remover spray?


Now for my story: I have built a strong medical kit but the one thing i don't have and want is lidocaine. I have lidocaine as a topical solution, but not the injection kind.

I used the lidocaine topical on my dog's ear when i stitched it up and it worked great. the dog felt no pain. I don't think it would be as effective on a person though. I have been looking for the injection kind, but so far i have been unable to find it.

I also want Novocaine for use in dentistry. Imagine having a bad tooth that needs to be pulled and no dentist. I have plenty of instruction manuals on pulling teeth, but Novocaine would be a nice addition.
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Old 03-14-2011, 10:20 AM
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Liquid Benadryl works as a local anesthesia.
Old 03-14-2011, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InfScout View Post
But that's why we have a Dentist, Nurse Practitioner, a PA, a Vet (don't laugh- they can do a lot), three RNs and two Paramedics in our group. I wish we had a Trauma doc, but not yet.

I'm not so fortunate! I don't plan on playing doctor if I can avoid it in a SHTF no other option may exists. I've learned how to administer IV's and insert breathing tubes etc... the worst thing one could do is buy some of these drugs even fish antibiotics and not learn proper use and contraindications of use.


Quote:
Originally Posted by revleo View Post
In the old days one of the kill pain items used was Clove Oil.
And it works as do many natural remedies but not for everything and not as powerful as pharmaceutics. If my child becomes seriously ill with bacterial pneumonia i'll use ciproflaxin or Amoxicilin.The mortality rate before antibiotics and modern medicine was much higher i posted a list of mortality rates for diseases in another post.

-Here's something to think about; in the 19th century an average of 20% of babies died in the first year Russia was 28% great Brittan 16% and the mortality rate was even higher with one to five year olds. All they had where natural remedies!

Many of these natural old remedies work but basing one's medical preps on a bottle thieves oil & some colloidal silver alone is a big mistake

http://www.healthline.com/galecontent/infant-mortality
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Old 03-14-2011, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnWStiner View Post
Good post;

now follow up questions

(1)Are you suggesting injecting the oral analgesics? or just rubbing them into the wound?

(2)Also; what is the purpose of wort remover spray?... {Snip}

(3)I also want Novocaine for use in dentistry. Imagine having a bad tooth that needs to be pulled and no dentist. I have plenty of instruction manuals on pulling teeth, but Novocaine would be a nice addition.
(1) Whoops, maybe I didn't type my reply quite as well as I should have.
The rule for Medications is just like the rule for thermometers - Oral should be for oral; anal for anal
(and yes, that thermometer that is in your mouth was in someone else's armpit a few minutes ago )

Oral drugs will have no effect topically (sorry to those of you that have the old formulation of Asper-Cream ) They affect the body through systemically blocking the pathway for prostaglandins, thereby lowering the pain, inflammation etc. (the classic calor, dolor, rubor, tumor quad) We can rub an aspirin on our arm all day long, but we will not get the effect we desire.

(2)The wart remover is going to physically numb the area by cold due to the expansion and evaporation of the solution in the can. Now, you can cause major skin damage by doing this too much, but for a quick little "Pull the fish hook outa Jim" situation, it works amazingly well. Now, you have to purchase a compressed gas canister of this, I have seen pump sprays, but for obvious reasons, the pump sprays would not be the same thing. I have a little can with a directional hose, can't remember the name of the manufacturer. I'll see if I can pull it out of the FA Kit later and let you know.

(3)If you go toward the injectable blocks, be very careful. Even trained dentists and oral surgeons can hit a nerve and cause permanent facial paralysis. Remember, you are trying to target the area of the nerve, so you have to be close, but if you hit it, you have done potentially permanent damage It would be nice to pull your friend's tooth out after the zombie-apocalypse but if you miss your target and hit a nerve, Jim is going to drool on you worse than a zombie for the rest of his life.

I would suggest going with oral dilaudid rather than risk having Jim kill you in your sleep. (You can get some oral drops of dilaudid or comparable pain meds from your primary if you tell them you are going on an extended backpacking trip and want a moderate to severe pain med)

Facial paralysis would be a bummer
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Old 03-14-2011, 11:35 AM
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What scares me the most is that I'm leaving my group and moving elsewhere. When I retire, I'm gone. It's a financial thing and I have to move.

I'll try to find another group that is suitably situated and possibly a few members may make the move with me.

In the interim, I'm back to my basic preps. No real medical support. It makes me think I should talk with the Nurse Pracitioner a bit more. She is my sister-in-law so she should be fairly receptive. Heck, she and her hers may move with us. She's older and looking for better areas. Maybe I can sell her on relocating.
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