Survivalist Forum

Advertise Here

Go Back   Survivalist Forum > Firearms and Other Weapons Forum > Non-Lethal Weapons & Self Defense
Articles Chat Room Classifieds Donations Gallery Groups Links Store Survival Files



Advertise Here
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-20-2011, 03:53 AM
ocalhoun's Avatar
ocalhoun ocalhoun is offline
Prepared
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Black Hills, South Dakota
Age: 28
Posts: 395
Thanks: 384
Thanked 312 Times in 136 Posts
Default 12ga Tear Gas Shells?



Advertise Here

I've noticed some of the 'exotic 12ga ammo' suppliers have tear gas shells, designed to spray tear gas out of the barrel.

Has anybody tried these? Are they effective? To what range? How much do they spread? Could some gas blow back towards you? Should you wear a gas mask when firing them? (I can just imagine trying to aim a second shot with tear gas in the eyes... not fun.) What effects do different barrel lengths/chokes have on them?

(My only shotgun right now is a single-shot, so loading and cycling is not a problem. It should also be pretty forgiving about being dirty.)
Just figure that if these work as advertised, they'd make a great 'warning shot' round... It would also let you disable violent, but unarmed, attackers more ethically.
Old 02-20-2011, 05:47 AM
druid189's Avatar
druid189 druid189 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: PA
Posts: 58
Thanks: 0
Thanked 59 Times in 34 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ocalhoun View Post
I've noticed some of the 'exotic 12ga ammo' suppliers have tear gas shells, designed to spray tear gas out of the barrel.

Has anybody tried these?
yes
Are they effective?
yes
To what range?
Indoors or out?
Depends on both but the "average" is about 8-10 feet, depending on manufacturer

How much do they spread?
Depends on range
Could some gas blow back towards you?
Absolutely
Should you wear a gas mask when firing them? (I can just imagine trying to aim a second shot with tear gas in the eyes... not fun.)
I do
What effects do different barrel lengths/chokes have on them?
Can't say. We use the Remington 870
(My only shotgun right now is a single-shot, so loading and cycling is not a problem. It should also be pretty forgiving about being dirty.)
Just figure that if these work as advertised, they'd make a great 'warning shot' round... It would also let you disable violent, but unarmed, attackers more ethically.
I work for the Department of Coercion...er um...Corrections ...and we use these as "crowd busters" on groups of unruly inmates.
Inside, the effective maximum range [for a 12 gauge] is about 20 feet with a dispersal pattern of about 10-15 feet wide 'cone' at maximum range.
Discharging them inside should be a last resort...mostly because cleanup is a problem.
Outside, count on half that distance due to wind, half again if with rain/snow/etc.

You want to be upwind if firing outside but winds shift and so will the OC. It's a powder that's like ground black pepper and is nasty stuff to have come back to you.

Effective? Sure is but you have to aim at mucus membranes for it to be effective [eyes, nose/throat and yes...any rectum or female genitalia]...and even then, can take from a few seconds to several minutes to take effect.

Then there's the whole "1% of the [total] population is naturally immune to OC affect"...as well as those doped up on hard core drugs [whatever that %age is] ....which adds to the problem.

If you are looking for a GOOD 'less lethal' round for defense against humans, then I suggest you go with rubber buck, rubber flats or rubber buck/ball....or a bean bag round. They are more effective in an "immediate" sense and work on all persons, high or not and there's no immunity to minor blunt trauma.


www.firequest.com has good stuff.
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to druid189 For This Useful Post:
Old 02-20-2011, 12:07 PM
ocalhoun's Avatar
ocalhoun ocalhoun is offline
Prepared
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Black Hills, South Dakota
Age: 28
Posts: 395
Thanks: 384
Thanked 312 Times in 136 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by druid189 View Post
If you are looking for a GOOD 'less lethal' round for defense against humans, then I suggest you go with rubber buck, rubber flats or rubber buck/ball....or a bean bag round. They are more effective in an "immediate" sense and work on all persons, high or not and there's no immunity to minor blunt trauma.
Probably true that the various blunt force solutions are more reliable and faster...

Good to know about the actual usefulness of these shells though!
The main advantage I could see would be the spread, as compared to most other non-lethal loads... But the necessity/advisability of wearing a gas mask while using them kinda negates any possibility of using them at a moment's notice.

If I could find some rubber buckshot at a reasonable price, I might go that direction instead...

(Kind of an academic question anyway, since my shotgun is single shot, it's primarily for hunting, not defense.)
Old 02-20-2011, 12:08 PM
greenhorn's Avatar
greenhorn greenhorn is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: western washington
Posts: 4,588
Thanks: 2,826
Thanked 3,105 Times in 1,682 Posts
Default

I can think of something cheaper and more efficient in a Shotgun then "Tear Gas"..Rock Salt, lead, and steel, come to mind...
Old 02-20-2011, 10:23 PM
druid189's Avatar
druid189 druid189 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: PA
Posts: 58
Thanks: 0
Thanked 59 Times in 34 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ocalhoun View Post
Probably true that the various blunt force solutions are more reliable and faster...

Good to know about the actual usefulness of these shells though!
The main advantage I could see would be the spread, as compared to most other non-lethal loads...
Please bear with me and I know I'm new here but I have to vent a little...it's not directed at you, just the topic I'm speaking to in general. I see it ALL the time and everywhere but I have a real "pet peeve" about the term "non-Lethal" when it comes to these types of rounds or methods of incapacitation. They are not 'non' lethal, they are LESS lethal and the reason is more than just for "legal terminology/jargon."

All of these rounds DO have the capability of causing death, including the OC burst rounds. What we call a "T" zone" is the most vulnerable spots on the human body, those that are susceptible to the least amount of force, rendering the most damage. If struck by one of these less lethal devices, the individual can be killed instantly or soon after from complications of blunt trauma caused by the objects [to those areas].

In the case of OC, there's something called a "hydraulic needle" effect and that's where the discharge of the [or any] chemical agent is mechanically [via air/pressure] or 'hydraulically' [via liquid] drilled through a person's skin, to vital organs or internal nerve centers.

The reason I'm so adamant about using the proper term is because people tend to disassociate the true danger behind the incorrect term. In other words, if people use the term 'non-lethal'...instead of less-lethal...they believe it until it's too late.

I just don't want anyone to misinterpret or underestimate the dangers of less-lethal munitions.

But the necessity/advisability of wearing a gas mask while using them kinda negates any possibility of using them at a moment's notice.

If I could find some rubber buckshot at a reasonable price, I might go that direction instead...

(Kind of an academic question anyway, since my shotgun is single shot, it's primarily for hunting, not defense.)
"A reasonably priced, specialty ammunition" is kind of an oxymoron...lol. A lot of tech and development goes into creating these rounds, which is one of the reasons why they cost so much. Another is to make it not cost-effective to just "plug away" with them at the user's whim [ie: Joe goofball just randomly shooting them for the fun of it].

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
I can think of something cheaper and more efficient in a Shotgun then "Tear Gas"..Rock Salt, lead, and steel, come to mind...
True...but also, he did ask/comment in terms of "ethics." Rock Salt loads have been proven in court that the user 'intended undue harm or pain and suffering' which makes an extremely strong argument against "ethics" ...and lead,steel/etc is use of lethal force...completely negating the "less-lethal' aspect of such rounds in the first place.

To the OP:
http://www.firequest.com/less-lethal-ammo.html

http://www.firequest.com/exotic-shotgun-ammo.html

Most are under the $25/box [of 5] mark. Expensive yes...but as I said, a lot goes into producing these rounds.
The Following User Says Thank You to druid189 For This Useful Post:
Old 02-21-2011, 07:23 AM
Illini Warrior's Avatar
Illini Warrior Illini Warrior is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 7,230
Thanks: 24
Thanked 9,314 Times in 3,901 Posts
Default Single Shot .... Shoot to Kill

In a SHTF situation of any kind where you see the need to shoot at someone ......

Use your first and maybe only shot to take someone out ..... undoubtably there will be a gun in the crowd and their going to throw lead at you ..... don't ***** foot around with BS stuff
Old 02-21-2011, 07:31 AM
Lone Star's Avatar
Lone Star Lone Star is offline
Come and Take It!
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Garland, TX
Age: 53
Posts: 11,617
Thanks: 6,282
Thanked 10,277 Times in 4,908 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ocalhoun View Post
I've noticed some of the 'exotic 12ga ammo' suppliers have tear gas shells, designed to spray tear gas out of the barrel.

Has anybody tried these? Are they effective? To what range? How much do they spread? Could some gas blow back towards you? Should you wear a gas mask when firing them? (I can just imagine trying to aim a second shot with tear gas in the eyes... not fun.) What effects do different barrel lengths/chokes have on them?

(My only shotgun right now is a single-shot, so loading and cycling is not a problem. It should also be pretty forgiving about being dirty.)
Just figure that if these work as advertised, they'd make a great 'warning shot' round... It would also let you disable violent, but unarmed, attackers more ethically.
I have never used the tear gas rounds but I have used the pepper rounds (OC) when I worked at the jail. The round when fired is like a teargas grenade it does not spray the gas from the barrel as you described.

The OC "pepper" rounds are very effective at riot control and will easily disperse a crowd.
The Following User Says Thank You to Lone Star For This Useful Post:
Old 02-21-2011, 03:59 PM
ocalhoun's Avatar
ocalhoun ocalhoun is offline
Prepared
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Black Hills, South Dakota
Age: 28
Posts: 395
Thanks: 384
Thanked 312 Times in 136 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Illini Warrior View Post
In a SHTF situation of any kind where you see the need to shoot at someone ......

Use your first and maybe only shot to take someone out ..... undoubtably there will be a gun in the crowd and their going to throw lead at you ..... don't ***** foot around with BS stuff
Was kinda thinking more of the scenario that someone is being belligerent/vaguely threatening, but not visibly armed... or someone stealing your supplies... that kind of thing.
In that case, you might need to use force to make them leave, but if you use deadly force, you never know if they might have powerful friends who might be a little upset that you killed him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lone Star View Post
I have never used the tear gas rounds but I have used the pepper rounds (OC) when I worked at the jail. The round when fired is like a teargas grenade it does not spray the gas from the barrel as you described.

The OC "pepper" rounds are very effective at riot control and will easily disperse a crowd.
Hm, I had been wondering if there was a version that worked more like a gas grenade... That would be very useful in some specialized situations.
...Would be great for flushing people out of cover/bunkers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by druid189 View Post
"A reasonably priced, specialty ammunition" is kind of an oxymoron...lol.
Yeah... that's true.
Reasonably priced (considering).
Quote:
I just don't want anyone to misinterpret or underestimate the dangers of less-lethal munitions.
Heh, oops. I should know better, too. I already knew the difference between non-lethal and less-lethal (still a little unsure about 'less-than-lethal'), but I was just being careless about terminology.

I'm not careless with weapons though, and treat even an empty gun with care.
Reply

Bookmarks



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Tear gas The Troubleshooter Non-Lethal Weapons & Self Defense 1 06-22-2011 10:45 PM
What tear gas does once it's in your house. ?? bettersafethan Urban Survival 48 05-11-2011 03:18 PM
Tear Drop Trailers kd7mnr Disaster Preparedness General Discussion 11 01-23-2011 11:53 PM
Re-Loading 12ga shells with 9mm slugs - What's the point? tankman1989 Shotgun Forum 4 11-20-2010 06:33 PM
Tear down to clean packrat09 Rifle Forum 8 11-12-2009 12:58 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright Kevin Felts 2006 - 2012,
Green theme by http://www.themesbydesign.net