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Firearms General Discussion Rifles, pistols, shotguns, scopes, grips and everything in between.

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Old 11-25-2011, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by NavigatinCollapse View Post
Some of us are gun snobs because we've seen lesser quality firearms have catastrophic failures at training classes that have round counts of 1,000 to 2,000 over a three day period. Is that 4,000 in a week or 4 years. Sometimes one would be better off to buy a used Glock or Smith and Wesson over a new Ruger or Taurus and spending the rest on quality training. "Owning a firearm doesn't make one armed anymore than owning a piano makes you a musician."
thats funny, becasue i just watched a near new kimber have a catastraphic failure recently. its in many more pieces then it started off as, and it will NEVER go back together. i've seen S&W's that were failures out of the box and never even fired aq single round. i've seen glocks that left the owners so discusted with their firearm that they left the range with thier heads hung in shame. i dont care what the name is, nor how much or little you paid for it. ALL GUNS can have faliures. big or small. inspect your firearms. use your firearms. know your firearms. care for your firearms. its up to you to maintain your firearms so they will be there for you when you need them.
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Old 11-26-2011, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by VINCENT View Post
thats funny, becasue i just watched a near new kimber have a catastraphic failure recently. its in many more pieces then it started off as, and it will NEVER go back together. i've seen S&W's that were failures out of the box and never even fired aq single round. i've seen glocks that left the owners so discusted with their firearm that they left the range with thier heads hung in shame. i dont care what the name is, nor how much or little you paid for it. ALL GUNS can have faliures. big or small. inspect your firearms. use your firearms. know your firearms. care for your firearms. its up to you to maintain your firearms so they will be there for you when you need them.
Granted, at times it is ammo related as well and ANY firearm will blow up with a highly overcharged round or squib round in the barrel.
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Old 11-26-2011, 04:57 PM
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Certain guns and manufacturers have good and bad reputations for a reason. Some are built to specs and combat proven, some have been around a long time and constantly improved, some are just cheaply made and won't last as long some others.
Old 11-27-2011, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Cougar8000 View Post
Ok, so as I've mentioned before, I'm a college student, very little income, most of that goes to bills, books, tuition, etc. I love guns and understand that relative to the buying power of the dollar, they're pretty darn cheap historically, all the same, a $1000 1911 or $1500 arsenal would actually equal close to half of my total $ spent on firearms to date. I am not questioning the value and quality of expensive firearms, I have no doubts you get what you pay for, all the same, for those of us on a very limited income, you can find some pretty good deals out there for a lot less.

Stoeger Cougar

When I got back from my time abroad in S. America, the first Guns and Ammo magazine I picked up had a great article on the Stoeger Cougar, "A new life for an old cat" I believe. This was 2006, it had the retail at $360 or so and mentioned being able to pick up the gun for under $300 possibly. Now for those of you who don't know, the Stoeger Cougar is a new production run of Beretta Cougars, made on Beretta tooling under Beretta QC but manufactured in Turkey. A very nice pistol. A year later, working full time during a break in school, I picked one up at Sportsman's warehouse, $360 out the door with a box of 9mm. Though prices have gone up as people have come to realize what an excellent pistol this is, locally they go for $399 now, oftentimes that store has a 10% off sale, bringing the price down to $360.
Gun snobs seem to ignore cheap but quality pieces like the Stoeger Cougar for some reason. It's an excellent piece that has NEVER failed in over 4000 rounds. The only time its 'failed' was when my small statured 11 yr. old brother limp-wristed it. My wife, a very small statured woman, has never had problems with this. It's very accurate and does not seem to have the muzzle-flip/twist I've noticed on other handguns due to the rotating barrel design.

Mosin Nagant M44

Ok, not so unappreciated now that the price has slowly started to climb on these beauties and more people own and know them. All the same, they still get more than their fair share of crap online and in gun stores. I mean come on.
In 2008 I picked up the M44 from Big 5, pristine, pristine, must have been unissued, for $106 out the door with tax. It's a natural pointer, very acceptable accuracy, cheap, powerful round, whats not to like? I may have been dumb and did 'sporterize' it, but nothing irreversible or permanent. Its actually spot on with the scope I put on it, I just need to find a longer eye relief scope if I want to keep it in scout scope configuration

Savage 64f

When I bought this it was $96 at walmart, so cheap, of course bricks of .22 lr were $8 bucks too, but no matter. Its been very reliable, very accurate, taken its fair share of rabbits, etc. While it doesn't have the name, reputation or accessories of a ruger 10/22, its also half the price and very very functional.

Mossberg 500

You can pick these up on sale all the time at box stores. Its a great shotgun with a fine reputation, and yet the 870 crowd still likes to tear into them for some reason. 870's are great, a little heavy but great, they are also twice the price of an equally great 500. I got this with 2 barrels, 28" and 18.5" at big 5 for $286 or so out the door, tax incl. I've seen the same deal go even cheaper.

Yugo Sks

Ok, the SKS platform is no longer sneered at and is in fact sought after, but that only seems to have happened after they doubled and tripled in value. When SKS rifles were >$100 many people deemed them to be junk. The Yugo still seems to be regarded as a bottom tier SKS. Mine is great, price was $150, needed some work on the extractor, another $39 and she's perfect. Yes it's on the heavy side for a carbine, but what do you expect for something with that much metal? Its accurate, semi-auto, shoots a reasonable/cheap cartridge, what more do you want? The bore isn't chrome lined, no biggy, wolf and modern ammo is not corrosive, surplus yugo is, make sure to clean it well after shooting the corrosive stuff, big whoopity doo.

Taurus 608

I did a summer field expedition for 6 weeks last year. Most of the areas we were in were bear country, we saw plenty. In preparation, I set out looking for a .357 magnum. While I orignally wanted a Taurus 66, when I walked into a local shopped and asked what .357's they had, the owner showed me this 608, 8 shot 6 1/2 inch barrel, stainless steel. I thought "that's a handsome gun!! too bad its outta my budget!" I was wrong, I looked at the tag, $369! It was used, but only lightly, no scratches or signs of wear. Well I paid cash and got it for about $380 out the door with a box of .38 special (this was toward the end of obamamania and the store was out of .357). 608's go for well over $500 NIB, I consider this baby to be practically NIB when I bought her, I was very, very happy. I carried it every day for 6 weeks in my pack with 8 rounds of buffalo bore 180 gr. Never had to use it, but found it very comforting at times. I've shot it a bit and with the porting and weight the recoil is comparable to my 9mm, even with the heavy, high velocity (1400 fps) bullets. the guns is far more accurate than my handgunner skills are worthy of, Single action is crisp and a joy, double action is very manageable and also enjoyable. Is it a colt python?? No, its not, and one day I'd love to own one, but it does what I need it too and does it well, plus, taurus's lifetime warranty is passed on to me even though I am not the orignal buyer.

Vz2008/58

I understand century has earned a bad rep on QC, there's too much evidence to question that, but with all the positive reviews coming in on the latest Vz2008's, I knew I wanted one, and when the price at Jgsales dropped to $359, I popped. Its a great, great carbine, very light-weight, fit and finish is very acceptable, magazines are no longer expensive are hard to find online, milled receiver, better safety than an AK, I could go on. Would a d-tecnik or CZ-usa have been better? Honestly I don't know how, but maybe, maybe. Would it have been worth twice what I paid? Once again I just don't see how.

Well there you go, in my experience, being on a limited income does not prevent one from purchasing quality firearms without breaking your budget. Gun snobs can sneer all they want at some of them, but the fact is, they work and while they in all honest most likely have a better weapon for much more money, thats fine, they can afford it, by shopping around, you too can be well armed with a reliable, quality weapon.

I don't want to rag on people who buy name brand or very expensive guns, believe me, one day I plan on owning some of those too!! I just want people to know that just because its cheaper doesn't mean its trash or even a step down in practical applications.
Nice read, Ill add a couple to your list.

#1 the Remington 7400 in 30-06.
This semi automatic rifle will take the Eagle 10 round aftermarket magazines and function flawlessly with them. We own two of these and an old model 740 which was built in the late 50's. 399.00 bucks new.

#2 Marlin 981T bolt action .22 rifle. Tube fed it shoots shorts, longs, long rifles and hyper velocity rounds. It is a tack driver out to 100 yards and will group 2 to 3 inches at 200. With just a slight trigger modification they can shoot match grade precision. 188.00 bucks at cheaper than dirt. KF
Old 11-27-2011, 02:58 PM
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Lee-Enfield (British .303 or Ishapore in 7.62x51). Superior to Mauser or Mosin Nagant. Common ammo. Common rifle. Common parts. Cheap. Robust. Fast action. Easy to repair in the field. Stripper clip loading of a mag that you can remove.

Old 11-27-2011, 04:29 PM
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I agree on many points. less expensive does not mean lower quality.
I don't know anyone that absolutely needs a 1911 that costs $2k or more.
Alot of AR's can get unnecessarily expensive.
You can safely stay away from many of the ultra pricey "elite" choices, but don't go TOO far the other way to 'cheap'.

I was Army infantry and my first platoon sgt. was special forces.
his advice- you can do fine with Astra, Taurus, etc...
However, you can really screw up and go with a horrible Jennings, Bryco, etc...(remember those tin little pistols?).

pick a good platform, like an AR, and you can choose from quite a few manufacturers, and many are US and have good quality control.

some guns actually are a good 'value' for what they cost and give a good return on investment. one example, Glock.

can you enjoy a $30 bottle of good old american bourbon just as much as a $1500 bottle of cognac? yes.

I hate to see guys think they HAVE to spend lots of $ to have a good weapon.
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Old 11-27-2011, 04:45 PM
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oh yeah- I don't know anyone that "needs" a shotgun made by Holland & Holland that sells for $100,000. Remington, Winchester, Mossberg, Benelli, etc....
Old 11-27-2011, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cruisemissile View Post
can you enjoy a $30 bottle of good old american bourbon just as much as a $1500 bottle of cognac? yes.
Or you can wind up in the ER from trying to drink Sterno.

As you point out, there is a certain point at either end of the spectrum of cost, where you get diminishing returns. I have a rifle that costs over $3K and I can't shoot it yet because I need to buy a $2K scope for it. I have a $200 Enfield in .308 and a Scout scope that is more useful for most purposes, except the specific purpose of the $3K rifle. You can spend a lot or very little - but more important is to spend it wisely.
Old 11-27-2011, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by The Heretic View Post
Or you can wind up in the ER from trying to drink Sterno.

As you point out, there is a certain point at either end of the spectrum of cost, where you get diminishing returns. I have a rifle that costs over $3K and I can't shoot it yet because I need to buy a $2K scope for it. I have a $200 Enfield in .308 and a Scout scope that is more useful for most purposes, except the specific purpose of the $3K rifle. You can spend a lot or very little - but more important is to spend it wisely.
Amen brother
Old 11-27-2011, 08:07 PM
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Spend 30 bucks and get your c&r license. Plenty of value in some of the c&r eligible gun. Pistols and rifles alike.

Plus a lot of the old soviet block ones take cheap yet effective ammo...
Old 11-30-2011, 10:47 PM
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The important thing to remember is that many small "brushfire" wars, rebellions, civil wars, insurgencies, etc. have been fought with cheap, surplus, old weapons. Partisan groups have always operated off of what was available, which for most of history has not been the nicest, newest or best quality. Yes, certain things like accuracy ergonomics, light weight and ability to upgrade are nice, but I'd still rather have a crate of 10 SKSs to arm my household than 2 AR15s. I think that many people can pick up a functional arsenal for a lot less than they realize.
Old 11-30-2011, 10:53 PM
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There is a big difference between inexpensive and cheep. A Tarus is an inexpensive pistol that is well amade and has an good warranty behind it. What ever you are shooting won't care if the bullet was fired from an expensive race gun or a pawn shop blue light special. If you practice with it, whatever you shoot will be just as shot.


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Old 12-01-2011, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cruisemissile View Post
I agree on many points. less expensive does not mean lower quality.
I don't know anyone that absolutely needs a 1911 that costs $2k or more.
Alot of AR's can get unnecessarily expensive.
You can safely stay away from many of the ultra pricey "elite" choices, but don't go TOO far the other way to 'cheap'.

I was Army infantry and my first platoon sgt. was special forces.
his advice- you can do fine with Astra, Taurus, etc...
However, you can really screw up and go with a horrible Jennings, Bryco, etc...(remember those tin little pistols?).

pick a good platform, like an AR, and you can choose from quite a few manufacturers, and many are US and have good quality control.

some guns actually are a good 'value' for what they cost and give a good return on investment. one example, Glock.

can you enjoy a $30 bottle of good old american bourbon just as much as a $1500 bottle of cognac? yes.

I hate to see guys think they HAVE to spend lots of $ to have a good weapon.
That is pretty well said.
Old 12-01-2011, 01:36 PM
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My last post on this topic,

As survivalists we should all concentrate on having one or more reliable weapons FIRST. Even if its just a little bolt action single shot .22. Be functional first then add to your inventory. We don't own a single gun that cost us more then 1,000 bucks. Our Ar-15s both come close with the added optics. Other then those two the rest are good solid hunting rifles and shotguns. Our pistols are not expensive either but very functional. Ruger P-89 . They dont jam , they go bang every time and are accurate out to 30 yards. I really would like a few more big rifles. I want a Garrand and a .50 caliber bmg SERBU Bolt action. Both are not needed right now but a man can dream
Old 12-01-2011, 04:10 PM
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If you want a good 1911 but a Llama. Spanish made. Mine's been really reliable with no modifications. Uses the standard 1911 single stack mags. It's ed everyhing I've put through it. Costed me about $250. That was a few years ago.
Old 12-01-2011, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by troppen View Post
In my handling of 10 1911 guns...

I belive the MOST expensive guns turn out being gimmicky wastes of money.

Want a good budget 1911? I suggest a Remington. I read some positive reviews on STI and Taurus but one of them I suspect is an insult to a word/noun/name.....
The Remington, American Classic (Bersa), Citadel, ATI and several other 1911 platforms are manufactured in the Phillipines in the same factory to whatever specifications the company wants. I bought a Citadel, ATI and a couple of the American Classics for less than $400.00 each. Had our local gunsmith (USMC trained armorer and SUPERB workmanship) go over them for me just like I do almost all of my firearms. He thinks everyone of them matches up with my Kimber. I also have a couple of custom 1911's I shoot (I'm kind of a 1911 nut)
In short, I have put several thousand rounds through the inexpensive 1911's and they are as accurate and reliable as my Kimber and Ed Brown. I gave the Citadel to my son in law and he loves it. The ATI went to a gal I work with and SHE loves it. All are .45ACP chambered and they all feed anything I care to give them. My standard practice load is a 200gr. semi-wadcutter and they feed and shoot as slick as ball. Look around and you can find GREAT guns for less than name brand guns.
Old 12-01-2011, 05:00 PM
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Taking the advice from friends and others on this board I ended up getting a Savage Model 11 .308 for $339.99 with scope.

I'll be doing a write up in the next day or two and be taking it out to the range tomorrow.
Old 12-06-2011, 10:58 AM
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I have some cheap guns; didn't spend $200.00 on any one of them. The one thing about my cheap guns is they shoot the same darn bullet and do the same massive damage as any of the expensive guns. Plus, my cheap guns are over-pressure rated; I shoot standard pressure, +P, and +P+. My cheap guns may not last 25 years, but I am going to have a good time shooting them cheap guns for at least another 10 years. If I keep my cheap guns cleaned, greased, and oiled they may last 100 years. But, I will be long gone by then.
Old 12-07-2011, 11:59 AM
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I own cheap-mid-expensive guns.

I find I use my mid-ranged guns the most ($600-$1200).

I find my expensive guns are "too nice" to shoot, and the cheap ones are not as enjoyable to shoot.

I like shooting my AR, AK, M1a, springfield 1911, HK 9mm, Kimber 1911, Browning A-Bolt, BPS the most out of my collection.
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Old 12-16-2011, 12:13 AM
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A Mossy 500 and a Remington 870 Express are about the same price point and I would wager the Mossy is slightly better in quality. An 870 Wingmaster is about twice what a 500 goes for and when you pull the slide and trigger you know where the money went. I've owned all three and still have the Wingmaster.
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