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Old 11-04-2010, 06:17 PM
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I blew holes in all of your ideas. Unless you are willing to stay inside allllllll of the time that perimeter barrier is only going to keep out the good guys not the bad. Id sure wonder what you had in there you are hiding from the public. It might be better to make your place low key. Plant buffer plants around the front and disguise the drive way, get german shepards and you can forget the fishing line and cow bells. Shepards are very very very territorial.
Old 11-04-2010, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by germantrader10 View Post
I think this could be an interesting topic. i have ten acres of land that sits on a hill. I want to build a defensive perimeter. and want to know if you guys can give me any input. I would prefer if it looked like a army base. Rather than a sticks and stones barrier. The inside of the base houses my home/bunker and farm land for my livestock. Call it a biodome without the dome. I want a complete perimeter wall around the base but after reading "Patriots" maybe a concrete wall isnt optimal. Drawings, sketches, pictures anything is helpful. 10 people will be living inside this fortress when SHTF!
Here you go.

Old 11-05-2010, 09:25 AM
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Hey guys thanks for all the input so far. I like some of the ideas and understand all point of view that came in .

1.Dont make it look obvious.

2.Nothing is fool proof

3.Natural fortification is smarter than military fortification.

etc.

My largest concern is our children. 6 in total and maybe two more to come. 6 parents and 4 other adults.

So to answer Alligatorgars comment of whats in there... our children. That is our best "treasure"

We have stockpiled medicine and food,weapons and ammo, building supplies, equipment, diesel , solar panels, wind generators etc. You name it we have it and plenty of it. Thanks largely to all you guys on this forum for your extremely useful input. We arent rich by any means but 2 families sold their houses and we pooled our money.

Our last concern though is how to defend what we have. 5 of us have a military background. All of us know how to use our weapons and use them well. We need to protect our livestock as it is our livelihood and our kids! We will set up a choke point and also will excavate a berm with concrete placed tree spikes and razor wire. After the input i received from some of you already we will also line our entire berm with natural thorny shrubbery growing in the razor wire to conceal it. Cameras lights and electric fences are great however i think the electricity we will have will not power all that.

Question. My first thought was to build a 8 foot thick and 12 foot high concrete wall around the house in addition to the further away first line of defense. Our location is 10 miles from the closest neighbor so i don't care much if any ones sees it now. But is such a wall with plenty of rebar and 2x heavy metal gate kind of like an airlock (minus the air lock part setup) a false sense of security?


Also we have one section of the property we where thinking of setting up for travelers almost like a lodging. After they pass initial interviews from patrol. If they are useful we would ask them to join our group. We are not anti people but we want to cover our asses! Bad idea or should we be somewhat humane. This is a question we are constantly arguing with the woman in the group about . I want your input as well. The guys say no the girls say yes. Go Figure!


We will conduct foot patrol around the property daily, aided in a armored car when making trips to neighbors and to local towns after SHTF. thinking of 2x Ferret armored trucks or 1x CZECH OT-64-R-3M. Depending. We are currently looking to purchase these.

I know it sounds overwhelming but we are preparing for the worst!

Thoughts on the concrete wall as the last line of defense greatly appreciated.
Old 11-05-2010, 09:48 AM
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Sorry, but building something like that is just ASKING for the government to come and take the property away from you for the public good. You know, with proper compensation and stuff.
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Old 11-05-2010, 09:54 AM
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You know, with proper compensation and stuff.
Yeah. Like a bullet to the head, aka SWAT, HRT, etc.
Old 11-05-2010, 12:10 PM
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yea i dont think so. People build homes like castles so that what i will do. Just make it a real castle not drywall and 2x4
Old 11-05-2010, 05:27 PM
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My question was just rhetorical. I wasnt actually looking for an answer. The extra plot of land for travelers to interview hot women sounds like a great idea. You gonna choose by cup size, weight, hair color, height or age?
Old 11-05-2010, 05:33 PM
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Natural barrier plants work excellently as well and require almost no maintenance. They also don't attract attention the way fences and walls do. Anything that grows too thick to walk through and anything with lots of nasty thorns work well. Be sure to plant the thorny stuff on both sides of any row of pedestrian barriers.

Using plants has the added benefit of not making it feel like you're inside a prison.
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Old 11-05-2010, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by germantrader10 View Post
I think this could be an interesting topic. i have ten acres of land that sits on a hill. I want to build a defensive perimeter. and want to know if you guys can give me any input. I would prefer if it looked like a army base. Rather than a sticks and stones barrier. The inside of the base houses my home/bunker and farm land for my livestock. Call it a biodome without the dome. I want a complete perimeter wall around the base but after reading "Patriots" maybe a concrete wall isnt optimal. Drawings, sketches, pictures anything is helpful. 10 people will be living inside this fortress when SHTF!
unless you all have the armys budget it wont be like your wanting. and something like that will prol draw alot of attention in good times and bad
id recomend something sturdy retaining walls i think would be best use of space but if you are adamant bout your little fortress i have one word for you
wako



As long as you remember that a determined attacker will breach your fortifications and plan accordingly you should be fine
I would rather than build obvious structures like concrete wall maby terrace your hillside with 3-4 foot high terrace walls that way they have to wear themselves climbing up ofer lots of little walls and you have nice little fields to grow stuff

or you could put up some trellesesces and plant grape vines having to work through or go around thos will also slow someone down as well and provide you food and drink.
Old 11-05-2010, 07:59 PM
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As long as you remember that a determined attacker will breach your fortifications and plan accordingly you should be fine
“Fixed fortifications are a monument to the stupidity of man.”
--- General George S. Patton
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Old 11-05-2010, 08:07 PM
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“Fixed fortifications are a monument to the stupidity of man.”
--- General George S. Patton
personaly i dont understand why the op wants to build himself a expensive prison.

its good to have defences but the more obvious they are the easier to overcome. bet hed be pretty ****ed off ifa group of bad guys sent a 10 yr old under the wire and over the wall and the kid sneaked over to the gates and opened em in the middle of the night and they awoke to a group of people storming the fort or the govt thinking they look a lil to hostil and set it on fire with them in it wako style.

Personaly I think the less asuming something looks the better as it wont be super obvious that its a defencive position even if it is
Old 11-05-2010, 10:25 PM
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Fixed positions are monuments to mans stupidity. ( George Patton )
Old 11-06-2010, 01:18 AM
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It doesn't matter how well you construct it, imo. If the right (or wrong) group of marauder types stumble on it, they'll find a way in.

Like someone else alluded to, you can build a castle with 3 foot thick walls and a moat with tanks and machine guns in a 360 degree radius, and a one hundred man army to protect it...

...and someone will still find they're way in.

They'll cut fences, burn thorny bushes, smash through concrete.

This is why I shake my head when I see the farmers & homesteaders talk about how smart and tough they're going to be regarding raiders. A raider has nothing to lose.

Nothing! And everything to gain...

Yet they babble about fields of view. And their keen hearing and other country jedi skills.

I'll tell you honestly, if you're sitting on a parcel of dirt, growing food crops with happy meals on the hoof, and a cozy warm hooch with a smoke stream reaching for the clouds...you're like a big, sweet piece of candy for the taking.

And like I said, when you've got nadda...you got nothing to lose.

And seeing one of your children, or family members die in front of you while you're pinned down in a burning house.......

If I had the money, I'd find a piece of land near a water source, wayyyy back in the sticks. I'd build a stone house, walls 2 foot thick. All non-combustable materials in the construction. Build it to be maintenance free to last.

Leave it empty....

But first....I'd put in a three section underground bunker system from Utah Shelters. The access would be in the cellar of the stone house; the blast door covered with a thin (3-4 inch) layer of concrete so theres no indication.

The underground shelter would have 3 exits or escape routes w/blast doors concealed on the outskirts of the property. The floor of the house would be concrete or stone as well, with the same thin layer to cover & conceal the cellar where tools, canning supplies, solar pannels, wood/coal stoves, etc., all your prep items, would all be stored and kept for the ready later on.

1 years living supplies in the bunker. After one year...the majority of problem people are dead or gone.

Then start your homestead. Sure...it's a plan full of holes & maybe's. But it's the only way I can imagine outlasting the worst.

Just my .02
Old 11-06-2010, 02:36 AM
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You must really want to be the next target for the folks who took out the Branch Davidians? Fortress compounds do not go over well in peace time.

In war time they become easy targets for seige. And with only ten people you do not have the manpower to defend such a place.
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Old 11-06-2010, 03:32 AM
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Build a berm close around the house and any buildings you want to keep.
On the lower outside of that berm put a sturdy barbed wire fence (picket every 10ft and a wire every 6inchs) outside of that put loose concertina wire, seed with low thorny bush's.
Top of berm put sandbagged strongpoints so all of the fenceline is covered by at least two positions setting up a crossfire where possible. That is your last line (enemy needs to reach the top of the berm to have direct fire into your place). Enemy need to crest the berm to gain entry making easy targets for anyone who can shoot!
Eliminate any deadground out to the range of your weapons, any deadground you cant eliminate either boobytrap or build a FP to deal with it ensuring all FP have a safe retreat path.

Concrete posts ( old tree stumps) sticking up 18in or so and overgrown will disable most vehicles.
Rows of old timber covered in old tarps to keep relatively dry and a few bottles of diesel can be used as a fire barrier to divide and destroy ( can only use once though).

For an anti vehicle weapon consider making a compressed air mortar lobbing cast concrete rounds, a 5lb concrete round falling on your vehicle roof will ruin your day , rounds are cheap and recycleable.

Just make your perimeter fence barbed wire and sturdy and make sure you can see all of it!
Old 11-06-2010, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeK View Post
You can get concertina wire in large amounts as military surplus for almost nothing if you go to the military auction and bid. Nobody wants it. I had pallets of the stuff that costed me just a few bucks. Me and some gun dealer buddies bought the lot because it contained other items that we could resell, but none of them wanted the concertina wire. And I see it at military auctions all the time.

A good perimeter is security chain link fencing. This is not terribly expensive and it's a lot stronger than residential chain link. You can bolster that with concertina wire at the base and at the top.

To keep vehicles from ramming it, you can employ a number of measures. One of the easier ones if the vehicles only have particular paths is to block those paths with aircraft cable strung between concrete filled steel pipe set into concrete. Fairly inexpensive and an easy project to do yourself.

Some tanglefoot inside the perimeter will slow intruders who do happen to make it, enough for them to be more easily eliminated.

There's nothing that can keep them out forever. But you can slow them down long enough to engage them while they're at a disadvantage. And if you can take out their vehicles you put them on foot. People on foot under fire will head for cover. Since you already know what cover is available (or provide it yourself) you know where they will head. If that cover was "rigged" ahead of time, you can eliminate them at the push of a button.

There are also a large variety of area denial devices you can rig with a little ingenuity. Get creative. On that same line of thought, trip flares and trip whistles are easy to build and legal. You can get instructions on how to make the compound from the various hobbiest pyrotechnics and fireworks sites. You can order the chemicals from them legally also.
MikeK, we think alot alike. We must be old nasty folks from back when ! Very good sugestions. I also have wireless battery operated perimeter alarms. Work very well. Also like coils of any kind of old loose wire, especially loosely coils of old rusty barb wire in places that look inviting to strangers. Also , dug a few "burn pits" with help from a back hoe. Really nasty leg breaker kinda things. Hard to see at night for sure. Once the shtf, then haveing a stock of bamboo handy will make some 60's era really nasty deterents if you are aware of the meaning....
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Old 11-06-2010, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Raven View Post
Like someone else alluded to, you can build a castle with 3 foot thick walls and a moat
It's because they forgot the piranhas & gators. What's the world record pole vault distance. (not height) Build it 10 foot wider.

Ok, ok. I'm gonna take my smart alec self back to my corner.


Old 11-07-2010, 07:30 PM
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An obstacle that is not covered by fire is not an obstacle, just a speed bump. In the end you must have a secondary position to withdrawal too. If not you will die in place or they will wait you out. Fortifications can stand only so long and very few have been able to withstand a siege without help from other fortified positions(read mutual friends) to help break it. Unless you can call for air support and arty with interlocking fields of fire to include mortars, machine guns and fougasse in the wire, a static defense will fail.
Remember one of Murphy's Laws; Make it hard for the enemy to get in and it will be hard for you to get out.

Defense in depth with like minded neighbors and/or a friendly local government who you have a pact with has to be the main option to tie in to any plan.

Study the battles of old to ancient times until the present. With out mutual friends in an uncertain world of what may be varying degrees of SHTF your chances of survival are short.
Look for the key words OCOKA Observation and Fields of Fire, Cover and Concealmentand defensive planning manuals to get you started. The military manuals are a place to start and will have to modified and adapted to fit your needs.

Here is an excerpt;

OCOKA
Observation and Fields of Fire, Cover and Concealment,
Obstacles (man made and natural), Key or Decisive Terrain, Avenues of Approach


Observation and Fields of Fire
Cover and Concealment
Obstacles (man made and natural)
Key or Decisive Terrain
Avenues of Approach






All of these factors must be analyzed in light of

the mission of the unit
the type operation
the level of command
the composition of forces involved
the weapons and equipment expected to be encountered

1. Observation and Fields of Fire

The evaluation of observation and fields of fire allows you to—

Identify potential engagement areas
Identify defensible terrain and weapons system positions.
Identify where maneuvering forces are most vulnerable to observation and fires.

Observation

Observation is the ability to see over a particular area to acquire targets.

"Visibility" is weather dependent or is a temporary phenomena. Observation, on the other hand, is terrain dependent and is relatively permanent. Generally, the best observation is obtained from the highest terrain in an area.

Fields of Fire

The area a weapon can cover effectively from a given point
Fires can be of two basic types

Direct fire weapons like machine guns, rifles and which require direct line of sight to their targets.
Indirect fire weapons such as mortars and artillery
Observation and fields of fire are not the same. You may be able to see 25 km, but if all you see are armed with a rifle, then your fields of fire will probably be limited to something like 500 meters.

2. Cover and Concealment

Cover

The protection from the effects of weapons fires, direct, indirect, and air to ground.

Certain aspects of the terrain may provide good cover from some fires, while some may provide cover from only one of these types.

Concealment

Protection from observation, either from the air or from the ground or both.

Examples:

slope
vegetation
built up areas

Remember that cover can be used to protect a force from the effects of direct and indirect fires. Also it can, in some cases, be used to protect a force from observation. If this is the case, then the object providing cover is also providing concealment. But cover and concealment do not always equate.

If an attacking force can move forward under concealment, the chances of achieving surprise increase. Concealed and covered approach routes are important to reconnaissance units, dismounted infantry, and insurgent or terrorist forces.

Defending forces seek to defend in an area which offers both concealment and cover to themselves but which does not provide covered approaches for the threat

3. Obstacles

Any natural or manmade terrain feature that stops, impedes, slows, or diverts movement.

Examples:

buildings, steep slopes, rivers, lakes, forests, deserts, swamps, jungles, cities, minefield, trenches, and military wire obstacles

Things to look for:

Vegetation (tree spacing and trunk diameter).
Surface drainage (stream width, depth, velocity, bank slope, and height).
Surface materials (soil types and conditions that affect mobility).
Surface configuration (slopes that affect mobility).
Obstacles (natural and manmade; consider obstacles to flight as well as ground mobility).
Transportation systems (bridge classifications and road characteristics such as curve,radius, slopes, and width)
Effects of actual or projected weather such as heavy precipitation or snow over.

4. Key or Decisive Terrain

Some terrain feature (natural or manmade) which, if controlled, will give a marked advantage to whoever controls it.
Often selected for use as battle positions or objectives
Echelon of command, mission, enemy, and situation dependent.
To designate terrain as decisive is to recognize that the mission depends on seizing or retaining it.
Key or decisive terrain must be controlled, not necessarily occupied. It may be controlled by either fires or maneuver.

examples:

a bridge over an unfordable river which gives access to the opposite shore without requiring an assault crossing.
a level clearing in rough terrain which is the only accessible landing field for airmobile operations
if you identify only one valid avenue of approach to the command’s objective, then the choke points on that avenue will probably become key terrain (compared to a situation where several AAs are available).

5. Avenues of Approach (AoA)

An AoA is an air or ground route of an attacking force of a given size leading to its objective or to key terrain in its path.

When I can I'll give a lis of manuals that may help you.
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Old 11-07-2010, 07:47 PM
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The perfect defense perimeter is called a bunker. Save yourself time, money and trouble and just build one. Building an above ground base is just like painting a target on yourself. If the snipers don't get your ten people then the rouge gangs, or goverment aganecies will.

The only other defensible option after the SHTF is to take over an existing prison complex.
Old 11-07-2010, 07:54 PM
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I wouldn't spend too much on fortifications. It will either be confiscated, overrun, torn apart by group squables, etc etc. I don't know what kind of money your talking about but I'd say why not have several locations ready? Each family can own and maintain one. Just thinking outloud.
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