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Old 11-04-2010, 09:18 AM
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Default Defensive perimeter



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I think this could be an interesting topic. i have ten acres of land that sits on a hill. I want to build a defensive perimeter. and want to know if you guys can give me any input. I would prefer if it looked like a army base. Rather than a sticks and stones barrier. The inside of the base houses my home/bunker and farm land for my livestock. Call it a biodome without the dome. I want a complete perimeter wall around the base but after reading "Patriots" maybe a concrete wall isnt optimal. Drawings, sketches, pictures anything is helpful. 10 people will be living inside this fortress when SHTF!
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Old 11-04-2010, 10:37 AM
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No such thing as a defensive barrier short of a castle and moat. At best you should have a perimeter detection system. The system will alert you to attack and allow you to time to implement your counter offensive.

Otherwise, your attackers have time on thier side. They will eventually get to you. You must attack or perish.
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Old 11-04-2010, 10:46 AM
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I have a house, on a hill, on 4 acres. Tall trees surround all sides except for small opening on the 100' driveway.

If SHTF, my first thought is block the drive, easily done, Then run fishing line with cans on outer perimeter for noise detection. Then barbed wire for closer inner perimeter. I could easily nail the barbed wire along the trees.

This is what my current plan is, I'm adjusting the plan as better ideas come along, or as the situation dictates.
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Old 11-04-2010, 10:53 AM
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The problem with even the best built box, is that the better it is at keeping them out the better it is at keeping you in. Just my thoughts
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Old 11-04-2010, 10:57 AM
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A fence like that would cost a fortune. You could put a wireless fence around perimeter for a dog fence. Have a livestock fence with horned livestock, maybe a couple of bison. Some guineas will let you know when someone is around.
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Old 11-04-2010, 11:07 AM
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Build Berms

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berm

Lots cheaper than that crazy fence, Magniot line built by the french, germans went around the side through a forest.

You can slow people down not stop them.

Add Geese for detection and good to eat.
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Old 11-04-2010, 11:39 AM
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You can get concertina wire in large amounts as military surplus for almost nothing if you go to the military auction and bid. Nobody wants it. I had pallets of the stuff that costed me just a few bucks. Me and some gun dealer buddies bought the lot because it contained other items that we could resell, but none of them wanted the concertina wire. And I see it at military auctions all the time.

A good perimeter is security chain link fencing. This is not terribly expensive and it's a lot stronger than residential chain link. You can bolster that with concertina wire at the base and at the top.

To keep vehicles from ramming it, you can employ a number of measures. One of the easier ones if the vehicles only have particular paths is to block those paths with aircraft cable strung between concrete filled steel pipe set into concrete. Fairly inexpensive and an easy project to do yourself.

Some tanglefoot inside the perimeter will slow intruders who do happen to make it, enough for them to be more easily eliminated.

There's nothing that can keep them out forever. But you can slow them down long enough to engage them while they're at a disadvantage. And if you can take out their vehicles you put them on foot. People on foot under fire will head for cover. Since you already know what cover is available (or provide it yourself) you know where they will head. If that cover was "rigged" ahead of time, you can eliminate them at the push of a button.

There are also a large variety of area denial devices you can rig with a little ingenuity. Get creative. On that same line of thought, trip flares and trip whistles are easy to build and legal. You can get instructions on how to make the compound from the various hobbiest pyrotechnics and fireworks sites. You can order the chemicals from them legally also.
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Old 11-04-2010, 11:45 AM
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With 10 people your best defense may be well placed, fortified gun positions closer to the center, with clear sight lines.

A fence system will inhibit the migration of wildlife onto your property.
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Old 11-04-2010, 01:09 PM
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Construct obstacles that channel into your defensive positions.

In the service we would call them dragons teeth.

The unwanted guest will pick the least path of resistance and walk into your firing positions.

You also may want to crater any access road way away from your living area so they will be on foot and will not be able to use the vehicles for support or resupply. Plus they would probably leave a guard or two (less to deal with).

Have traps and obstacles to harass all the way up to your A.O...
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Old 11-04-2010, 01:20 PM
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I have to agree with well placed fortifications. My wife and I moved out of the city in 2008. We chose a house on a small private lake way out away from any main road. Its on a rural back road that for all purposes goes no where. Half a mile from my house is a swampy area that connects two lakes to my lake and that area is my first line of defense. The road has a culvert there and will be easy to block the road right there. Anyone trying to unblock it will come under fire from several sand bag blinds on high ground looking down on that section of road. This is key because if you can defend away from your home you keep any wanna be attackers from seeing your last line of defense which is your defensive perimeter. There are 16 of us now that have pledged to protect the lake if everything goes into the sewer. The culvert is a choke point and any attackers have to come through there and up hill for almost half a mile. The sides are impassable with silt, muck and dense swamp on both sides of the road. Without artillery,a tank or air power no one is coming up that road.

If we lose that position we fall back to the next one which is the top of the hill and then to my last line which is only about 100 yards from my house but still not in view of my house. My last line of defense serves two purposes. W e set up food plots to bring in deer from those swamps. They are in effect open areas with zero cover. In between them we have planted Black Locust trees that have terrible thorns which force anything into two funnels where we have three sandbag Blinds built with interlocking fields of fire. We command any approach to our house from the sides and front. We have the lake to our backs and can escape by canoe or small boat to the other side of the lake which is a very dense swamp but there is one path out of there which you would have to live there to know where it is. We can use this path to flank our adversaries hitting them from behind while keeping them pinned down at the food plots. We have thought our plan out to every detail and and have had Michigan Militia members try assaulting us in mock battle. They got paint balled all of them.

The first thing you need to do is establish some kind of funneling that will force any attackers into predictable fields of fire. I would locate small sand bag blinds around my perimeter and use deer cams like we use to alert you of intruders. Try to defend as far away from your house as possible. If you dont you will have some sniper lobbing bullets into your buildings from far away at will. We are lucky as our house is not visible from the road because of a ridge and that ridge is where our perimeter is set up. We have the high ground and control the approaches. That is the key to a defensive perimeter. You must control the approaches to your house. Killing fields of open ground that you can concentrate fire on from sheltered positions. Clear away anything that attackers can use for cover and even better set up fake cover that they will use and shoot right through it. Be the bad guy and practice attacking your own defenses. Its the best way to find out what does and does not work. George Patton once said any defense can be taken out. He was correct. With the right equipment any defense can be overcome. I dont think looters will have tanks,planes and mortars,cannons, RPGS etc. In a small arms fight the group who has the fortified high ground will have every advantage. Sure a huge group of several hundred armed men could just run right over you but ask your self this, would you charge into a hail of bullets for an unknown reward? Is it worth assaulting a fortress for a little food and water? I dont think so. I believe that most of the bad element will come to a quick demise at the hands of local law enforcement in the first couple of weeks. Then the long term part will start where LEOS have defined areas of operation . They will patrol until they have no more man power. If things go beyond that stage only then will you see good people do bad things. By then however most of the cold blooded killers will already be dead. Good luck , Kingfish
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Old 11-04-2010, 01:46 PM
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while that looks awesome, its got to be god-awful expensive
Old 11-04-2010, 01:50 PM
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12.5 acres here...deep creek along the back and one side make cars/trucks impossible...heavey woods on all sides except front entrance make large vehicals impossible...so I've earmarked a couple large trees near the road entrance that could be felled as a road block..making people enter on foot...enough open space around the home perimeter that they have to come out in the open...house is on the high ground...zombie plinkin time at that point...

dogs that know their property lines are my first alert.
if still have power..then motion floods, security cameras including nighttime IR help me see what's going on without having to run to all corners.

if long term..then simple trip lines with fishing line and cans etc will be installed..we also have numerous critter cams already in place for the hobby...you can see their flash at night from a good ways off..

plenty of handheld bright flashlights if power is out...don't like to give away my position...but at least being able to spot them..might let them know they have been seen and turn them away...also own a nightscope...
not looking for battle...just some of the hobby stuff we already own..plus some of the normal security measures that we've found very good to have out here from normal burglars.

right now..my only fencing is simple barbed wire...would like to install better at some point...but as it is..if you're on my property at night and you don't know the lines..you'd likely wind up gettin caught up in some old wire..
Old 11-04-2010, 02:17 PM
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Well concrete can be crashed through with a truck.

I would rent a escovator and dig a ditch about 20 feet deep and wide around the perimeter with very steep walls. This will allow you to see out of the perimeter and will slow them down just as much as a wall.

I would haul the excavated earth to the center of the fortres and make a very high 360 degree vantage point for a sniper guard, armed with an M1A and a highly magnified scope. Sand bag a nice ballistic barrier.
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Old 11-04-2010, 03:17 PM
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Just study the way base camps in Vietnam were laid out. Spend a half million or so dollars. Sandbag bunkers, concertina razor wire (with hanging tin cans with stones in them to detect movement), claymore mines, buried foo-gas, guard towers, Agent Orange defoiliated fire zones, several platoons of infantry, etc.
Then realize a half starved, half naked, illiterate VC with a satchel charge and a rifle can sneak in undetected and kill you.
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Old 11-04-2010, 03:32 PM
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Some Good Ideas, I Would Also Grow Some Thorn Bushes, BlackBerrys Etc. Make a Good Hedge Around 3 Sides
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Old 11-04-2010, 03:38 PM
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Consider Norman Hedge Rows.

Push up a berm, put in a 5 strand barbed wire fence along the top, plant dense strips blackberry brambles and wild roses, as well as three or four strips of close spaced fast growing thorny trees. Osage Orange, Honey Locust, Hawthorn, etc.
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Old 11-04-2010, 04:19 PM
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How steep is your hill? Is your home at the top?

Personally I wouldn't want it to look like an army base.

It might affect your re-sale value should you ever sell before the shtf.

Also a perimeter fence as in the thumbnail looking "army like" will have people want to seek help at such place, or rise up against the establishment, or attempt to loot. So it widens the net of who might wanna approach or try to take over imo.

I personally would try to keep it as 'soft' in visual appearance as possible from the road. So if I was installing a wall so that my property was hidden, it would be hidden.

I too would use lots of thick thorny foliage with a hardcore wall behind it. I'd change the lights to just IR led panels and hide the cameras as much as possible.

but also +1 on a ditch from me too though.

They can be a constant along a perimeter. You can have a bridge or ramps for when you need to use it. Rather than an inevitable break of a perimeter wall.

I envy your land, as I'm in a flat.

Build thread time on whatever you decide
Old 11-04-2010, 05:18 PM
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I am afraid that the attempt to look like an armed camp might cause you more trouble than it is worth. I live outside a small town. There are 3 places that scream survivalist. Everyone knows they are there. People actually take visitors to see the places (from the outside of course – lol) it is sort of a redneck version of the Hollywood tour of the stars homes. Kids brag about who would be brave enough to cut the fence. To my knowledge none of them ever have done so but the idea is there in the back of their heads. There are jokes and gossip about what must be behind the fences. You get the idea. Also, here people assume whoever is behind those fences has to have a lot of money to afford the fence so it makes them a target.

It could be a matter of location and you would be fine but you might want to consider the implications of looking like you have something worth defending.
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Old 11-04-2010, 05:33 PM
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The perfect defense perimeter?
First off everything metallic is to be electrified. Build 2 sets of a 30 ft high barbwire chainlink fence, on the buttom of the fences put a bunch of spiked stickes like in midieval days, but reinforce with concrete at the buttom. In between the sets of fence a complete pit fall into spike surrondedd by barb wire. Then on the other side of the second fence into your perimeter a huge tench. 15 ft deep, and sprinkler it daily to make sure it's muddy. After the huge trench a plexiglass/bullet proof glass wall 15 ft tall. Then after that a pack of 30 German shepeheards. And whatever dogs that are used to hear stuff and alert.
NO ONE will get past that unless they have a helicopter.
Old 11-04-2010, 05:45 PM
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To be honest you are much better off using natural barriers that blend in better such as what Jerry D Young suggested above. To have a fortress like in the pic would make you a much more visible target.
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