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Old 05-18-2008, 08:37 PM
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Default water for gas?



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http://www.water4gas.com/2books.htm

Ok, from what I understand this system works like this: A liter of water (Or windshield antifreeze for cold climates) is stored in a container under your hood. Using the electric system in your vehicle, this water is converted to hydrogen gas via electrolysis while your engine is running. Tubes running from the container to your fuel line use the suction from the fuel line to suck the hydrogen out of the container and into your fuel line, combining the hydrogen with the gas or diesel before it goes into the engine. The added hydrogen reduces the gas or diesel needed to run the vehicle, giving more miles per gallon.

I heard two guys from Water For Gas on the radio last week doing an interview on an AM radio show I listen to nightly. They were explaining how it works, why it works, and were answering questions from callers. They offer both a book that they say will give you enough knowledge to purchase the equipment from auto parts store and Home Deot needed to build it yourself. Or you can purchase a kit from them for around $300 installed.

They are saying that this can be used for gasoline or diesel engines of any kind. To me this sounds good. I've always maintained that your vehicle, while running, is making electricity that is being wasted. This sounds like someone has come up with a way to make that excess electricity do some work toward miles per gallon.

So now I'm wondering if it works. And if it does I'm wondering what effect it would have on a motorcycle or a car that already gets 30+ miles per gallon.

Also, I'm interested in whether or not it can be added to a generator, if it works as they claim. That would extend the time a generator could run on a tank full of gas or diesel.

Listening to the interview with these 2 guys on the radio, they said that the main obstacle they ran into most was fooling the internal sensors so they don't register a drop in the exhaust or sense the fuel is too lean and add more gasoline to the mixture, bringing the MPG back to what it was in the first place.
If I give this a shot I'm going to make sure the vehicle I purchase is an older model with out the on board computer. Or, once I've contacted these folks and asked their opinion, I might purchase an older motorcycle and try it on that. (been looking at those old 250cc motorcycles from the early 70's for commuting.)

This isn't a magic bullet. You still need to buy gas or diesel. But it might be a step in the right direction, IMHO. DIY products are the only way to go if one is to bring energy saving products to the general population. It's when someone comes up with something truly great and tries to make millions off of it that people get killed or bought out, the product shelved or made to disappear. But if it is a DIY product then it's more difficult to make it disappear due to many others out there knowing how to make it themselves and using it to demonstrate it works to others. Would take a whole lot of killing to suppress it at that point.

Has anyone done this or is anyone looking into adding this system to their vehicle? Before anyone posts reasons this could not possibly work or the downsides to this please use that link to see if they've already addressed your concerns. If they have go ahead and post your concern along with their response and then comment on why you agree or disagree.
Old 05-18-2008, 09:26 PM
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i've no doubt it works, but the 'weaning' isn't necessary.

would be better to have a system that is solely water based (generating hydrogen on the fly, with or without batteries). this is not only possible, but has been done. several times. for a long time now.

the most 'mainstream' example of this is the GM hy-line. it's worth ~5mil, but the cost to produce couldn't be anywhere near that (likely due to GM's interest in oil-based powerplants for vehicles in use now). top gear did a piece on it:

http://www.youtube.com/v/NLKExuHlQMQ

definitely not a survival vehicle (entire system is computer based -- even the rear and side mirrors) but it's still pretty slick.

two reasons we're not using them today: political and profitable. oil is profitable. oil is going to be much more profitable in the near future. hell, dubya increased the price of oil ten fold in two terms by killing the US dollar. and profit equals political power. course ya'll know that.

what's really interesting is that purely hydrogen-powered vehicles have been around for decades. hybrid (gas/electric) vehicles have been around since 1898. and there are several documented cases of modern (read: working today) vehicles that run via hydrogen/battery or hydrogen alone, made by individuals (read: no business interests in petroleum vehicles)

http://www.youtube.com/v/UVhXrvCCILw

this one's really cool, 100mi trip on 4oz of water:
(seen references to this being the water4gas thing)

http://www.youtube.com/v/KZOsOB3z3IE

and then there's stan meyer, who was offered a billion for his hydrogen engine patent by saudis in the 1970s, declined, and ended up dead. not going to speculate on the conspiratory whatnots, but here's a vid that does (mostly goes into how it works):

http://www.youtube.com/v/Jcy3JbGjQwo

unrelated, but how do ya'll embed videos here? the embed code from youtube doesn't work.

Last edited by korey; 05-18-2008 at 09:39 PM..
Old 05-18-2008, 11:00 PM
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Yes, I believe engines that would destroy OPEC have been made in the past. And I know they've been shelved.

This information means only one thing to me and that is that it is possible to live without OPEC. And I think that's all I need. You can shelve the product, but not the idea. I believe the technology is in our hands right now to bypass OPEC. It's just a matter of A. combining these technologies to make a working model and B. designing a Do-It-Yourself program to allow others to put it together and use it themselves. If that happens then suppressing products becomes almost impossible for OPEC or the government. Citizens will not stand for laws against engines that do not require gasoline or diesel---not if they've seen other ordinary citizens running their vehicles without gas or diesel. And if it's done right there will be too many people who both know how it works and can do it themselves and who use it in their day-to-day lives to go strong-arm.

When I look at gas for water products I wonder if an engine that runs on hydrogen can produce enough hydrogen on the fly to keep itself running. Perhaps not, but it's worth looking into. After all, they're just using the excess electricity produced by the car's engine to make a supplemental hydrogen gas that works with the gasoline or diesel the car already uses. I'm just wondering if there is a way to up the electric output and add more hydrogen units so you can forget about the gas or diesel. BTW, the reason water for gas hasn't been shut down is that any of their customers that are now using this system can simply start it up again on their own. And that's the beauty of what water for gas is doing.
Old 05-19-2008, 12:11 AM
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Here is a hydrogen reactor I built and am installing on a camero this week.
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Old 05-19-2008, 10:17 AM
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Sandman, I PM'd you.

Do you think this could be used to power a generator using the electricity the generator produces? If several were set up at once could they produce enough to keep the generator running without a second source of power?

Yes, I'm highly interested in setting up a generator that can power itself with enough left over to charge a battery bank and/or an electric car.
Old 05-21-2008, 01:27 AM
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P.S. If anyone is going to mess around with brute force electrolysis READ alot about it first. Hydrogen is no joke and a small amount can get you killed. It burns at 2800 degrees centigrade. Respect it is as dangerous as a firearm.

Last edited by Sandman; 05-21-2008 at 01:27 AM.. Reason: Typo
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Old 05-21-2008, 01:47 AM
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Default New gas-saving device put to the test

New gas-saving device put to the test

I saw this on our local news in Kansas City - fits with the discussion.

http://www.nbcactionnews.com/news/lo...58D93&gsa=true

Last Update: 5/08 9:30 pm

REPORTED BY: JAMIE HOLMES - WPTV
(Getty Images)
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Hydro-4000
There is no more pinch at the pump. Instead it has become a full fledge punch. But what if there was a device out there which could save you up to 60 percent on your gas bill?

The Hydro-4000 installs to any vehicle, and runs on water. It costs about $1,200. But the creators say given the amount of money you already spend on gas, it wouldn't take long before you made that money back.

"We estimate the average person would see savings in one year. With fuel prices going the way they are, today's oil market is $112 a barrel, prices are going to continue to go up, we have to find solutions to our big problem in the U.S.," says David Havanich. But does it work?

The Hydro-4000 to the test by NBC Action News' sister station, WPTV. It was installed on one of the station's news vehicles that was checked out and given a complete tune-up by the station's mechanic.

Before we share with you the results, let's explain how the Hydro-4000 is supposed to work.

In any engine, when you push down on the accelerator, a mixture of air and gasoline is sent into your cylinder. When the gas and air hit your spark plugs, it triggers a mini explosion, pushing your car forward. But in any engine, roughly 15 percent of the gas is not burned; instead its pushed out through your exhaust pipe.

The Hydro-4000 creators say their device sends hydrogen into your engine, creating a cleaner burning environment.

They claim their product allows you to burn all of the gas that you're putting into your tank, instead of wasting it through your exhaust pipe.

"What we've done is brought oxygen, similar to what race car drivers do, to hydrogen, which is a higher burning has to also make sure you're burning every bit of fuel you're paying for at the pump," says Havanich.

So back to the test.

First, we needed to know how many miles per gallon we were getting in our vehicle. So we put it on something called a dynamometer, think of it as a giant treadmill where we ran the truck for twenty minutes at 55 mph on a full tank of gas.

Once done, we found that even with an oil change, clean air filter and proper tire pressure, we were averaging roughly 9.4 mpg.

We then ran our truck on the street for close to a month with the Hydro-4000 running. The owners said this would give the device time to clean out the engine. We then put our vehicle back on the dynamometer, and did the same test all over again.

And guess what? With the device on, we were now averaging 23.2 mpg. That's 61 percent better than the gas mileage we were previously getting.

We also road tested the device. There we averaged 16.1 mpg, which is 58 percent better than before.

Another device, the Hydro-5000, is also available for 18-wheelers.
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Old 05-22-2008, 02:51 AM
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I saw a video of a man who runs his car completely off of water. He also invented a machine that cut through things with a beam that was as hot as the sun, this was also run off of water. I am going to try and find the video and I will post it here when I do. Something smells fishy when there are keyboards with individual monitors in each key yet we are running our automobiles with the same junk that went into the Model T.
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Old 05-22-2008, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Using the electric system in your vehicle, this water is converted to hydrogen gas via electrolysis while your engine is running.
It will take more gasoline energy to create electricity via the alternator (exectrical generator) than you would get back from burning the hydrogen. The system described would lose more energy than an ordinary ICE (internal combustion engine).

Quote:
Thermodynamics is the study of the inter-relation between heat, work and internal energy of a system.

The British scientist and author C.P. Snow had an excellent way of remembering the three laws:

You cannot win (that is, you cannot get something for nothing, because matter and energy are conserved).


You cannot break even (you cannot return to the same energy state, because there is always an increase in disorder; entropy always increases).


You cannot get out of the game (because absolute zero is unattainable).
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Old 05-22-2008, 10:52 AM
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Question: How do you keep the oxygen and the hydrogen separate? It looks like they are being released into the same jar. When we did this in highschool, we had two different beakers for each electrode to capture each gas. I am very interested in experimenting with this also.
Old 05-22-2008, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by jato View Post
It will take more gasoline energy to create electricity via the alternator (exectrical generator) than you would get back from burning the hydrogen. The system described would lose more energy than an ordinary ICE (internal combustion engine).
Then was the news report dead wrong? Because the device they used does exactly that. Are you saying this because you've tested this out and are reporting your results or are you posting this because you've heard that this is true?

I think it's important we know so we can better evaluate this method of increasing gas mileage. Thanks in advance for answering this question for us.
Old 05-22-2008, 12:54 PM
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Then was the news report dead wrong? Because the device they used does exactly that. Are you saying this because you've tested this out and are reporting your results or are you posting this because you've heard that this is true?
The answer lies within the science of Thermodynamics. Every time energy is changed from one form to another, energy in the system is lost.

1. Gasoline (chemical potential energy)
2. The ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) converts a portion of the gasoline into mechanical energy.
3. The alternator or generator converts a portion of the mechanical energy into electrical energy.
4. A portion of the electrical energy splits water (H2O) into Hydrogen and Oxygen (chemical potential energy).
5. The Hydrogen and Oxygen are burned in the ICE.
6. A potion of the Hydrogen and Oxygen burned in the ICE convert back into mechanical energy.

A system avoiding steps 3, 4, 5 and 6 would be more efficient (ie your standard ICE engine).
Old 05-22-2008, 05:45 PM
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Here is the video I had promised before.

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Old 05-23-2008, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riverrat View Post
Question: How do you keep the oxygen and the hydrogen separate? It looks like they are being released into the same jar. When we did this in highschool, we had two different beakers for each electrode to capture each gas. I am very interested in experimenting with this also.
These systems dont seperate the two gasses, it burns them together...Its called brown gas, or HHO...two hydrogen, one oxygen.... And it will work. You alternator is already turning making electricty, once your battery is fully charged the excess power could be used to make hydrogen, and hydrogen is like 10 times more explosive than gas, so a little goes a long way..... There are lots of guys working on it right now, lots on youtube if you want to learn how...
Old 05-23-2008, 11:42 AM
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You alternator is already turning making electricity, once your battery is fully charged the excess power could be used to make hydrogen
Using a device to disconnect the alternator (clutch) from the engine would be more efficient than generating electricity, producing and burning hydrogen.
Old 05-24-2008, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by jato View Post
Using a device to disconnect the alternator (clutch) from the engine would be more efficient than generating electricity, producing and burning hydrogen.
Are you saying that disconnecting the alternator using a clutch would raise gas mileage more than using that wasted, excess electricity from your vehicle to produce hydrogen to off-set the amount of gasoline used to run the engine?

You vehicle is already making electricity as you drive, electricity that is not put to use once your battery is charged. Using this previously unused electricity to generate hydrogen is a viable way to increase miles per gallon. We can talk about how inefficient using electricity to make hydrogen is, but then we'd have to bring up how inefficient it is to make electricity and then not use it at all. And we'd have to discuss why inefficiency matters in the first place if you're putting excess electricity to use rather than wasting it. At least you're getting something from that previously wasted electricity.

Since we already have a source of electricity that is being constantly wasted as we drive, I say we put it to use making hydrogen to off-set the amount of gas we use. Good for the environment and good for our wallets. Win/win. What's wrong with that?
Old 05-24-2008, 10:55 AM
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Since we already have a source of electricity that is being constantly wasted as we drive,
By clutching the alternator/generator once the battery is topped off, the engine no longer wastes energy by generating excessive electricity. When the battery drops below a certain level, re-engage the alternator and charge the battery back up. Rinse and repeat as necessary.
Old 05-24-2008, 09:26 PM
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What evidence do you have that disengaging the alternator and reengaging it as needed will significantly increase miles per gallon? Is this something that has been tried or is it a theory? I'd be very interested in disengaging the clutch if it would increase my miles per gallon by, say, 20% which is the minimum increase in miles per gallon with the hydrogen units available today.

Thanks for any links you have about this.
Old 05-25-2008, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
What evidence do you have that disengaging the alternator and reengaging it as needed will significantly increase miles per gallon?
It won't. It might save 1 horsepower.


Quote:
I'd be very interested in disengaging the clutch if it would increase my miles per gallon by, say, 20% which is the minimum increase in miles per gallon with the hydrogen units available today.
Generating Hydrogen from your car's alternator won't save any miles per gallon. There is no such thing as free energy.
Old 05-25-2008, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
By clutching the alternator/generator once the battery is topped off, the engine no longer wastes energy by generating excessive electricity. When the battery drops below a certain level, re-engage the alternator and charge the battery back up. Rinse and repeat as necessary.
We are discussing a device which claims to save on fuel costs. It's not cold fusion. It doesn't claim to make energy from nothing. It's simply replacing one gas in your combustion engine with another which burns hotter, therefore burning the approximately 15% of your fuel that usually just goes out your tail pipe.
I'm trying to understand how your above post relates to the conversation in any way. Are you presenting this as a fuel saving measure? I'm trying to see your point.
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