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Old 10-23-2010, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by MountainRecluse View Post
I agree you can't rely on "tumble".

Now I am no ballistics expert but have alot of experience with this round and this has been my observation:

Hydrostatic shock. The 5.56 (55 gr) was designed to do wonders inside flesh not due to it's smaller size (though thats part of the equation) but it's sheer VELOCITY.

The term hydrostatic shock describes the observation that a penetrating projectile can produce remote wounding and incapacitating effects in living targets, in addition to local effects in tissue caused by direct impact, through a hydraulic effect in liquid-filled tissues.[1][2] There is scientific evidence that hydrostatic shock can produce remote neural damage and produce incapacitation more quickly than blood loss effects.[3] The debate between proponents of bullets that are "light and fast" versus bullets that are "slow and heavy" often refers to this phenomenon.

Human autopsy results have demonstrated brain hemorrhaging from fatal hits to the chest, including cases with handgun bullets.[4] Thirty-three cases of fatal penetrating chest wounds by a single bullet were selected from a much larger set by excluding all other traumatic factors, including past history.


Thats why many wounds you see from 5.56 (and ballistic gel) are actually bigger on the INSIDE. The sheer velocity of the round creates a "wave" effect using the fluid inside your cells doing all kinds of additional damage.

Now where we went wrong was killing the velocity by shortening the barrel AND using the M855. That's why there is this trend towards heavier grains to rely more on the sheer transfer of kinetic energy than the velocity (just like the x39 round...which can't be beat).

A 16 inch barrel should be BARE MINIMUM when rolling with 5.56. Unless you have heavier grains. Notice the Marines never gave up our standard length (20 in) M16's. There are no complaints with the standard M16 performance (generally speaking). Coupled with the fact that we are currently engaging enemies that are skinny like a pole and wear no armor.....we should drop back down to the 55 gr (out of the 20 in barrel) and I bet all those multiple CM shots or "ice-picking" incidents will dissappear. Heck, even the 62 gr M855 does fine with that barrel length.

5.56 out of anything less than a 16 in barrel is a gamble. You want a shorter barrel, you have no choice but to up your game to 6.5, 6.8, 7.62, etc.....preferably x39 or higher as someone else had mentioned it's not "velocity dependent". It's just gonna wreck s****!

All of this nonsense anyway came about to try an develop a smaller, lighter round (to carry more). Stick with Stoner's original design, intent, and specifications and you do have a very lethal platform that accomplishes it's goal. Let's also keep in mind Stoner had way more modifications to his original rifle that were scrapped when it was first introduced in Nam. It's funny (well actually sad) that it took 50 some years to come full circle and add back on the features that were really intended for the design.

I have an AR in 5.56 and store both 55gr and M855. I prefer the 55 gr for use against un-armored flesh. My AR is tough as nails, eats all kinds of ammo, and have not had a single rifle malfunction....some ammo and magazine malfunctions though. I think it's a great platform for all types of scenarios and especially since I do not rely on foreign ammo being around forever. But I have been listening to the wisdom of the old-timers here and am saving up for a solid MBR in 7.62x51 like a M14. Maybe even a Garand in 30-06. The 5.56 AR is certainly doesn't pack the most "heat" compared to other platforms but I have absolute confidence of it doing what it needs to do. And it will kill deer as well.

just my .2 cents. I've been known to be wrong, though...
Actually the USMC has switched to the M4. Though the m16 is still in use.
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Old 10-24-2010, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainRecluse View Post
I agree you can't rely on "tumble".

Now I am no ballistics expert but have alot of experience with this round and this has been my observation:

Hydrostatic shock. The 5.56 (55 gr) was designed to do wonders inside flesh not due to it's smaller size (though thats part of the equation) but it's sheer VELOCITY.

The term hydrostatic shock describes the observation that a penetrating projectile can produce remote wounding and incapacitating effects in living targets, in addition to local effects in tissue caused by direct impact, through a hydraulic effect in liquid-filled tissues.[1][2] There is scientific evidence that hydrostatic shock can produce remote neural damage and produce incapacitation more quickly than blood loss effects.[3] The debate between proponents of bullets that are "light and fast" versus bullets that are "slow and heavy" often refers to this phenomenon.

Human autopsy results have demonstrated brain hemorrhaging from fatal hits to the chest, including cases with handgun bullets.[4] Thirty-three cases of fatal penetrating chest wounds by a single bullet were selected from a much larger set by excluding all other traumatic factors, including past history.


Thats why many wounds you see from 5.56 (and ballistic gel) are actually bigger on the INSIDE. The sheer velocity of the round creates a "wave" effect using the fluid inside your cells doing all kinds of additional damage.

Now where we went wrong was killing the velocity by shortening the barrel AND using the M855. That's why there is this trend towards heavier grains to rely more on the sheer transfer of kinetic energy than the velocity (just like the x39 round...which can't be beat).

A 16 inch barrel should be BARE MINIMUM when rolling with 5.56. Unless you have heavier grains. Notice the Marines never gave up our standard length (20 in) M16's. There are no complaints with the standard M16 performance (generally speaking). Coupled with the fact that we are currently engaging enemies that are skinny like a pole and wear no armor.....we should drop back down to the 55 gr (out of the 20 in barrel) and I bet all those multiple CM shots or "ice-picking" incidents will dissappear. Heck, even the 62 gr M855 does fine with that barrel length.

5.56 out of anything less than a 16 in barrel is a gamble. You want a shorter barrel, you have no choice but to up your game to 6.5, 6.8, 7.62, etc.....preferably x39 or higher as someone else had mentioned it's not "velocity dependent". It's just gonna wreck s****!

All of this nonsense anyway came about to try an develop a smaller, lighter round (to carry more). Stick with Stoner's original design, intent, and specifications and you do have a very lethal platform that accomplishes it's goal. Let's also keep in mind Stoner had way more modifications to his original rifle that were scrapped when it was first introduced in Nam. It's funny (well actually sad) that it took 50 some years to come full circle and add back on the features that were really intended for the design.

I have an AR in 5.56 and store both 55gr and M855. I prefer the 55 gr for use against un-armored flesh. My AR is tough as nails, eats all kinds of ammo, and have not had a single rifle malfunction....some ammo and magazine malfunctions though. I think it's a great platform for all types of scenarios and especially since I do not rely on foreign ammo being around forever. But I have been listening to the wisdom of the old-timers here and am saving up for a solid MBR in 7.62x51 like a M14. Maybe even a Garand in 30-06. The 5.56 AR is certainly doesn't pack the most "heat" compared to other platforms but I have absolute confidence of it doing what it needs to do. And it will kill deer as well.

just my .2 cents. I've been known to be wrong, though...
Marines still use the M4, and the M16A4. All the "energy transfer" and wizardy talk aside it all means about nothing if you can't get a good hit. A whole in your lung will really give you a crappy day if its .223 inches or .308. Doesn't really matter. Be careful with the 62 grain rounds, the "penatrator" rounds the military uses have had some issues. Not tumbling, nor fragmenting at all when hitting a soft target. Basically blowing a straight line right through them. Know some people who bought some surplus, the steel core on the inside of some wasn't properly centered. Wouldn't spin right, hitting the targets sideways and going all over the damn place, lol. I agree I like my 55's.

Don't agree with you on the short barrel being a waste at all, depending on what you are using it for. The muzzle velocity difference isn't staggering, a little over 3,000 compared to 2700 - 2800 with the 16 inch. If you go 10 inch barrel you aren't going to be taking long shots anyway (or hopefully at least). Haven't looked up the info but wouldn't be surprised if close range on a 10 inch barrel is close to a 100 to 200 yard shot out of that 20 inch in terms of velocity.

Agree it is a good rifle, people overly criticize it, most of whom have never owned one "that's a varmit round, i like my (insert any .308 rifle here). My Bushy gas piston eats all sorts of ammo, stays clean and ice cold and shoots very nice groups. Headshot on a deer with irons...coming right up.
Old 10-24-2010, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by American ME! View Post
Consider a .22LR conversion kit for the AR in 5.56 like the one below. I've been quite impressed overall with mine.
I have to agree with ya bro, I have a conversion kit to and man is it nice! pull the .223 bolt.... slap in the .22 conversion and ya got a VERY GOOD squirrel gun.... add the 50rd. drum and ya got a squirrel HELL come true!

If i could find someone to shoot video for me I'd get ya a review......
I'll look into it.
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Old 10-24-2010, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by kev View Post
This article is presented as my "opinion" and should not be considered as scientific fact. I know this topic has been covered a bunch of times, I figure 1 more thread aint gonna hunt.

Is the AR-15 a good survival rifle? The simple answer is, “it depends.” The M16 223/5.56mm was original developed as a replacement for the M14 and the 308. The mindset was to develop a lighter rifle and lighter ammo so that soldiers could carry the rifle further and carry more ammo. The drawback, instead of shooting a 150 or 180 grain bullet like the 308 Winchester / 7.62 NATO, the 223 / 5.56mm shot a 55 grain bullet.



Lets talk about some of the pluses and negatives of the 223/5.56mm:

1. To compensate for the smaller bullet diameter and lighter weight, the 55 grain 5.56mm is supposed to “tumble” after it hits flesh. The “tumbling” creates wounds and does quit a bit of damage to flesh.

I see a couple of issues with the “tumble” theory:

How does the bullet know whether its hitting a wall and should punch through, or flesh and tumble? When the bullet is made, is it granted with magical powers that tells it what the bullet is about to hit, and whether it should tumble or not?

All phun aside, the 223/5.56mm has problems getting through walls. Once the bullet hits something, and it tries to tumble, it loses its energy.

This is one of the big drawbacks to the 223/5.56mm, it relies on the “tumbling” effect to do its damage. But sometimes the tumbling can also be the bullets downfall – like when it needs to punch through something instead of tumble.

marlin 336 and bushmaster ar-15 survivalist weapons



2. .308 is larger then .223 – this is a mathematical certainty that will never change. All things aside, the 308 will punch a larger hole, and will penetrate solid material better then the 223. Even when compared to the 30-30, the .308 bullet has a mathematical certainty of creating a larger hole then the .223 / 5.56mm.

3. On the plus side when compared to a .308 rifle, the 223 / 5.56mm ammunition is lighter, more compact, and sometimes cheaper.

4. Since the 5.56mm is used by militarys all over the world, sometimes you can find good deals on 5.56mm – like being able to buy the ammo in a sealed can. Which makes long term storage easy. Just buy a couple of the sardine cans of 5.56mm, and store them at your bug out location.

5. The 223 / 5.56mm is super accurate.

6. The 223 / 5.56mm has a low recoil, which makes it a great choice for people learning how to shoot, and small framed individuals. When a 105 pound 16 year old girl shoots an AR-15, its not going to dot her eye or knock her on her butt.

7. Accessories – the AR-15 and Mini-14 family of rifles has more accessories then you can shake a stick at. Whether its a new stock, scope, flash suppressor, magazines,,,,,, you should be able to find just about anything you want.

8. Replacement parts – AR-15 parts are easy to find. Go to just about any gun show with $200 and you should be able to get all the replacement firing pins and springs that could ever want or need.

9. Ammo can be cheap – sometimes there are sales on wolf or monarch amm0. I remember a couple of years ago Academy sports and outdoors having Monarch 223 at $2.79 for a box of 20. Except for the 22 long rifle, its going to difficult to beat those kinds of prices. But over the past few years 223 has gone up to the $6 – $7 for 20 rounds price range. Sometimes companies like Cheaper than Dirt will have sales.

10. The use of aluminum and plastics in the rifles construction has helped to keep the overall weight of the AR-15 down.
Whitetail deer taken with a .270

Hunting with the 223 / 5.56mm AR15 or Mini-14



The deer was taken with a Weatherby Vanguard chambered in .270.

This is where the big debate is – is the 223/5.56mm big enough to take deer sized game in a humane manner. The answer will vary depending on “who” you talk to. I know of lots of people who use a 223 for deer, but I personally would not. Then there are the people who profess that no, you should never use a 223/5.56mm on deer sized game.

My personal opinion, hunting deer with a .223 diameter bullet is like driving the family mini-van or SUV in the Indie 500. Sure, the SUV, car, truck, or mini-van can drive on the track, but its not going to be able to keep up with a race car. Would you rather drive a car that tops out at 100 miles per hour, or a race car that can go over 200 miles per hour? Do you want to punch a small hole or a big hole?

On top of the bullet diameter, what are you hunting? Is it deer, wild hog, bear, moose, elk,,,,,? There is an old saying – “use the right gun for the job.”

This is just my personal opinion, but in a survival situation where I was having to hunt for food, I would want a rifle that going to knock whatever I shoot down. Calibers in that group include the 30-30, 270, 280, 308 and the 30-06. In a SHTF / TEOTWAWKI situation, one of the worst things that can happen, is to see something while hunting and not have a big enough rifle to take it down. Where you might see a 200+ pound hog that could feed a family for several days, the 223 does not take the animal down, and it runs off to die from infection a few days later. Its a lose-lose situation. The hog dies and only the worms and buzzards get a meal out of it, and your family goes hungry.
I like 5.56 because ammo is plenty and some what cheap.Common rounds are the best for shtf because you still can find ammo.
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Old 10-24-2010, 12:55 PM
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I agree with all that MountainRecluse had to say, with the exception of the round tumbling when entering the target. From what I remember the 55 gn pill had a cannelure and the hydrostatic shock caused the bullet to break at the cannelure creating two or more projectiles which would then tumble inside the target.

I carry a CAR15 as my duty weapon and have great faith in it's stopping power, but we are also trained to fire until the threat stops being a threat and to go to the juice box if the target doesn't go down when hit CM.

I do, however, have a fondness for the 7.62X51 round and in particular the M14 platform and have a few of those laying around. The scenario would dictate which I would choose, but either will work with the correct shot placement within their effective ranges.
Old 10-24-2010, 01:52 PM
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If you have trouble surviving with a AR-15 you will have trouble surviving with any other weapon as well. I'm a gun nut, I love guns and have played with or owned lots of different guns, if or when I bug out of my house the AR-15 will be on my back, the fal's and M-14's will still be in the safe. What the 5.56X45 lacks in stopping power the AR-15 platform makes up in accuracy and durability.
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Old 10-24-2010, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by SigDude View Post
If you have trouble surviving with a AR-15 you will have trouble surviving with any other weapon as well. I'm a gun nut, I love guns and have played with or owned lots of different guns, if or when I bug out of my house the AR-15 will be on my back, the fal's and M-14's will still be in the safe. What the 5.56X45 lacks in stopping power the AR-15 platform makes up in accuracy and durability.



Exactly why I have several and hunt regularly with them. I can't complain about the stopping power either.
Old 10-24-2010, 05:15 PM
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I have to agree with ya bro, I have a conversion kit to and man is it nice! pull the .223 bolt.... slap in the .22 conversion and ya got a VERY GOOD squirrel gun.... add the 50rd. drum and ya got a squirrel HELL come true!

If i could find someone to shoot video for me I'd get ya a review......
I'll look into it.
Mine was right at $200.00.
Old 10-24-2010, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by mercman View Post
I agree with all that MountainRecluse had to say, with the exception of the round tumbling when entering the target. From what I remember the 55 gn pill had a cannelure and the hydrostatic shock caused the bullet to break at the cannelure creating two or more projectiles which would then tumble inside the target.

I carry a CAR15 as my duty weapon and have great faith in it's stopping power, but we are also trained to fire until the threat stops being a threat and to go to the juice box if the target doesn't go down when hit CM.

I do, however, have a fondness for the 7.62X51 round and in particular the M14 platform and have a few of those laying around. The scenario would dictate which I would choose, but either will work with the correct shot placement within their effective ranges.
I agree. The 5.56 has way more tendency to shatter and break apart than "tumble" inside the target........

What's worse? Tumbling or shattering (creating multiple projectiles and exit wounds or turning your lungs into applesauce)?......well I think we can safely say the bad guy isn't too concerned about those details. But no how it behaves once hitting it's target, it's vital for a smaller round to have a high velocity in order to take advantage of hydrostatic shock.....otherwise it's just a hard-hittin .22, right?

I always go with the "hotter" 5.56 than the .223.

I think the 5.45 round pulled off the "tumbling" intent way better than the 5.56.....

And I have no idea how much different a 5.56 will behave inside a deer as opposed to a human but I would imagine it's not that much different.....
Old 10-24-2010, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by OpenSights View Post
As for the "tumbling", Yes the round does "tumble". At 500 yards, while working the pits, the projectile would, on occasion, punch through the paper "sideways". Thinking about it, it can act like a flechet (SP I know, sorry don't speak French) rocket, but instead of needles, a much larger projectile. Allows it to bounce around inside you, or at the very least change course inside the body and cause more internal damage. Of course distance and point of impact play a very big role in what the round does.

As I was taught, the 5.56 was not designed to kill an enemy, but to wound him. You wound one enemy one or two more need to carry him from the fight. Thus taking two to three enemies out of the fight. (The thought being that we are fighting an enemy that at least somewhat values the life of their own kind.)
The 5.56 was most certainly intended to dispatch the enemy, not just wound him. The "tumbling" effect, when first discovered against personnel, was of genuine concern to the powers that be, as they were concerned that it would be deemed a weapon that "maims", in direct violation to the newly-ratified Geneva Conventions, to which the US was a signatory party. In the end, it was the deadly effectiveness of the round that quelled accusations of "maiming". It turns out that exactly the opposite was true; it proved deadly even in wounds that would otherwise not be life-threatening, due principally to its velocity causing unexpectedly severe hydrostatic shock.
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Old 10-25-2010, 12:52 AM
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The tumbling issue aside, I saw a deputy sheriff put down
a deer at an accident scene a while back. He said it was
Black Hills 55 gr hollowpoint.
While the deer was shot at close range, I was suprised that
it went all the way thru the body and the exit would was
about 1 inch diameter.
Which was bigger than I expected.
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Old 10-28-2010, 03:28 PM
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Default Is the .223 deadly???

I have two AR 15's and here is my opinion.....
I was zeroing my DPMS in at the range.
They have no permanent target stands so it is bring your own.
I use 3/8" "Forsale Sign" supports to hold my targets.
I'm shooting "Tula" Brand as it is cheaper and anything under 100 yds it
works great.
So, I have just mounted my new scope and had not bench zeroed it.
I set the target at 50 yds, point and pull the trigger.
Then I look and the target is leaning over to one side.
Thinking the target lost its connection to the frame, I go take a look.
Well the scope is off about six inches to the right and the bullet has hit the frame.
The frame is 3/8" steel rod and it is cut into! Clean into.
I know "Tula" is a steel copper clad bullet, but I'm thinking those Russians make a mean bullet that is very deadly.
That bullet would have went thru a human body and smashed anything it came in contact with inside, passed on thru and got the guy behind him.
I see why range owners will not let any Russian ammo be shot inside as it can damage the backstop.
Old 10-28-2010, 03:39 PM
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I Just Useing My AR To Get Out Of St Louis To The Country. They Also Switch To The M-16 From The 308 To Wound The Enemy. It only takes 1 Guy to Dig a Hole, It Takes 3-4 To Take care of a Wounded Soldier. and More Money!!!
Old 10-28-2010, 10:44 PM
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Y'know that's an excellent point AME! Definitely strengthens the argument of taking a 5.56 as your survival rifle since you're basically getting a two-fer in one lightweight rifle. The .22LR conversion kit isn't as accurate as a complete .22 rifle with 1:16" twist but the .22 kit is very light plus the ammo is ultralight.
I try brother Quentin. I can only go by what I have experienced in what I have tried and tested.
Old 10-29-2010, 03:10 AM
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When you are in survival mode, you will use what you have at hand. If that means shooting a deer with a .223/5.56 round, believe me, you'll do it to get the meat. The M-4 system is accurate and works well for accuracy with an experienced rifleman behind it. By going to low power scopes you enhance the over all accuracy of the majority of shooters so that shot placement becomes better. The ergonomics of the rifle are really good and much better than an AK but there are some issues for some shooters who prefer the bigger bore ammo. So the way you set up your M-4 is a matter of personal option.
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Old 10-29-2010, 03:38 AM
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I came across this article regarding 5.56mm caliber. Enjoy reading it.

http://www.thegunzone.com/556faq.html

Cheers,
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Old 10-29-2010, 09:53 PM
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I gave up the .30-30 a long time ago for the SKS and AR15.

As someone else said, I'm not a fanboi for the AR, but it is my choice for a survival rifle. I've killed squirrels with it, and I've killed deer with it, and everything in between. I even take it when in the mountains as "bear medicine" if needed. 72gr is fine for that. If the known bears in the area are over 300lbs, the SKS goes with me. I don't condemn anyone for using a .22cal. for deer hunting. I know lots of people who do it, I do it, my dad does it still (He uses a .22 mag!) and I've never seen him lose a deer. I don't condemn anyone who are strict fans of .30 cal. either. To each his own.
Old 11-13-2010, 07:47 AM
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I think (and this is totally my opinion) that the AR is a very good survival weapon. 1. Survival is Escape, Evade and survive till the next day. 2. If you are going to engage a target beyond 300 meters than you are a fool. 3. The AR is light and can take lots of abuse. 4. Lots of ammo can be carried and when you run out, your AR can be used as a baseball bat.
Old 11-13-2010, 08:20 AM
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I have 4 AR's I have built. two in 5.56 one in 6.8spc and one in 7.62x39. All must be good enough to do the job, all those calibers have taken the most dangerous animal on earth..man. All have put meat on the table.

PS
and all three calibers work flawlessly in the AR.
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Old 11-13-2010, 09:59 AM
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I Just Useing My AR To Get Out Of St Louis To The Country. They Also Switch To The M-16 From The 308 To Wound The Enemy. It only takes 1 Guy to Dig a Hole, It Takes 3-4 To Take care of a Wounded Soldier. and More Money!!!


Oh brother.....

Might want to ask this guy about how it felt when he got "wounded" by 5.56:





....oh wait.....nevermind....he's DEAD
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