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Old 09-28-2010, 10:04 PM
run2daHillz run2daHillz is offline
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Default Help ID a headstamp please



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Hey everyone, hope this is the right area.

I just scored a butt load of 223 Brass, only problem is I cant figure out who makes it. All it has on the headstamp is a Nato cross and 04. It is crimped and annealed and was told this was from the DoD. I was under the impression however that it was LC, which obviously there is no LC stamp. Hope the pic helps.

I have LC 07 brass as well and I weighed a couple cases they are between 91-93gr. All these have completely processed.

This brass weighs in at 93gr-96gr. Altho these have not been processed at all.

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Old 09-29-2010, 09:02 AM
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It's what we used to refer to as a "clandestine round." Ammo your SpecOps community would be issued when operating in various climates where we were not supposed to be. It's all we used in Central American in the late eighties.

My bet is that it was manufactured/pressed and stamped either by Federal and loaded by Lake City (it was complicated), or it came through Radway .... I only assume that since it is .223/5.56.

There were reports recently, of some clandestine brass showing up in Iraq but the general poop from the intel guys on that was that it was of Chinese origin with a false NATO headstamp and it was being dolled out to insurgents for use in some of their civilian massacres - hoping to make us look like the culprits. But usually the "false" headstamps that the commies produced included a Lake City, et al., brand, that made it much more obvious to the media. Of course, they may be getting smart or they may have gotten their hands on some of the surplus stuff from the Contra missions. Although, the more I think about it the more I remember most of the clandestine stuff I saw back then having nothing in the way of a headstamp - not even the NATO mark, but that was classified as "sterile" rather than clandestine .... although some of the stuff handed out to partisans on our side would have the NATO mark but no manufacturer stamp.

How you came about receiving it would be a mystery to me quite frankly?

All of this is assumptive based on past knowledge on my part - heck, it could be any number of reasons, but I cannot imagine what they would be other than what I am attempting to convey. Perhaps someone with more modern knowledge will chime in and provide a more reasonable answer. It's an interesting question. I'm glad you posted it and the pic.

The variation in weight between the LC stuff you weighed and the clandestine stuff you've pictured above is negligent but to some degree it does indicate, to me at least, that it was produced and loaded overseas. Still, it is a question that makes me go hmmmmm? I can't wait for some others to offer a more reasonable explanation. I'm tempted to make a call and send that picture to a friend who might know more. The DoD claim is where it really baffles me plus the fact that you evidently have so much of it. :::::::::: scratching head ::::::::::::: My first instinct would be to be careful reloading it unless you absolutely positively trust your source.

One thing I know it is not is SCAMP. At least I am pretty sure all the SCAMP stuff was X'd out and de-milled although I had heard reports years ago that some had found its way into the civilian reloading market - I've never actually seen or heard of anyone that got their hands on any.

Only your CIA metallurgist knows for sure.
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Old 09-29-2010, 10:31 AM
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It possible that it's German 5.56 NATO ammo,the 04 is the German head stamp code. Is the bullet magnetic.
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Old 09-29-2010, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by res45 View Post
It possible that it's German 5.56 NATO ammo,the 04 is the German head stamp code. Is the bullet magnetic.
Ummmmm, are you sure that "04" is a manufacturer's headstamp? I mean I know that "4" is an old Volkseigene Betrieb (VEB) Mechanische Werkstätten Königswartha, East Germany headstamp, but not zero-four. Now, "05" is Spreewerke, Lübben, East Germany.

Good question about the magnetic bullet though ... except he said he had just the brass I thought? Nothing loaded.
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Old 09-29-2010, 11:19 AM
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E. German X39 ammo imported into the US from the 60's to the 80's before the steel core ban took place has two different DDR headstamps 04 & 05.

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In 1992 Century Arms imported 15 million rounds of DDR 7.62x39mm M43 ammo which has steel core bullets. This ammo was not in boxes but sold loose in 1000 rd lots. It had headstamps of DDR ammo factory codes of 04 and 05. The two digit dates of the headstamps were in the 1960's to 1980's. This ammo had a grey lacquer finish on the cases and was corrosive primed.
The current 90's Surplus German DAG X51 ammo has the 04 head stamp as well as the NATO mark. I believe Aim surplus is still selling it.

One of my local shops has some of the X39 plain white box DDR 04 ammo little pricey for X39 ammo and corrosive but I'm thinking of picking up a box or two for my stash and collection.
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Old 09-29-2010, 11:27 AM
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I have come across brass like this before, probably used in training/testing and swept up for auction and sold as scrap at a government auction.

I struck the motherlode once, ended up with more with more palletized bins of brass than I was prepared to haul away
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Old 09-29-2010, 11:57 AM
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This is just the brass, nothing loaded. One of the things also said to me was there is no way he can get anymore as there are no more sources for him to get it. I know this isnt always a good thing, but I never met this guy, heard of him etc. Just kinda of stumbled upon a sale. Guy seemed well to do in an upper class suburb of this area so I figured I have less to worry about than if I had got it from someone in the hood.

If it is a corrosive primer, I would imagine I can just prep as normal, but use starting loads and go from there. Corrosive primers only matter if the ammo is loaded with it correct??

Go ahead and send the pic out if you want to Gallo, I dont mind at all.
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Old 09-29-2010, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by res45 View Post
E. German X39 ammo imported into the US from the 60's to the 80's before the steel core ban took place has two different DDR headstamps 04 & 05.
Two problems with that. First off, it's not x39, it's 5.56/.223. Secondly, it has the NATO mark.

I'm with Gallo. It's clandestine ammo, but figuring out the actual maker is the hard part. That's an interesting find though.
Old 09-29-2010, 02:21 PM
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seen similar, if not identical, cases, late 70's early 80's on ranges here in the UK. At the time we were still using 7.62 SLRs but some of the Special Forces/SAS were using M16s etc and had been down the ranges prior to us. Only other info is that Radway Green were involved in procuring the rounds, I believe the weapons were via Singapore for some reason, not direct from the US.
Hope this helps.
Old 09-29-2010, 02:34 PM
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Why clandistine? Wishful thinking?

The cross shows NATO acceptance

The 04 is the year of mfg.

It was swept up from a qualification range. Why make a big deal out of it?
Old 09-29-2010, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcliffhanger View Post
Why clandistine? Wishful thinking?

The cross shows NATO acceptance

The 04 is the year of mfg.

It was swept up from a qualification range. Why make a big deal out of it?
dc, just quit. Sometimes you just choke me blue with that nonchalant overly simplistic self absorbed hubris of yours, you know it? If you have nothing to add, just stay out of it.

But since you decided to jump in, I'll make a bet with you. You wanna make a bet? First I want you to clarify something before I absolutely give you what you've had coming for a long time.

I want you to be very succinct about your post if you do not mind?

You stated the following four things - I need you to clarify before we make our little bet so that you have no wiggle room.

1) Why clandistine? Wishful thinking? .... my question is, are you stating it is something else, made for another purpose, and that you have proof of your claim? And you prepared to share your full and vast knowledge and experience on the subject, correct?

2) The cross shows NATO acceptance .... no one has denied that, and there has been plenty of clandestine ammo produced in the past forty years with nothing but the NATO stamp. What's your point? Are you stating unequivocally that there is no way it could be a false headstamp produced by China, et al? There is no historical record of anything such as that every happening, correct? That is what you are stating?

3) The 04 is the year of mfg. .... probably, no one is denying that either. What's your point? Are you stating unequivocally that there is no other possibility for the "04" stamp? Make yourself clear.

4) It was swept up from a qualification range. Why make a big deal out of it? .... see, here is where I have a real problem with your patronizing tone. run2daHillz asked a legitimate question. He obviously has some knowledge of headstamps, as most of us reloaders do, and he was double-checking before filling it full of an explosive compound .... just in case. That's worth "making a big deal out of it." It's a safety thing and if you were half the reloader you claim to be then you would know that without having to be schooled once again. Then there is the general "fun topic" added motivation ... it's just a fun topic. Agreed? Do you agree with that or not? It's one of the things that make this board fun. Sharing. Socializing with others. Having a good time. Learning things. You lack some serious people skills fella. At any rate, then there is the whole condescending "it was swept up from a qualification range" comment. You don't know that. You haven't got a clue where it came from. None of us do. But you refuse to play nice.

So here is the bet.

You prove that it was swept up from a qualification range somewhere. You prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that it was manufactured in a NATO approved facility in 2004. Name the place, name the facility.

That's all you are being asked to do should you accept this bet.

In the meantime, I'll prove that there has been, in existence for decades now, ammo, loaded in similar brass, that has nothing but a NATO stamp on it that is employed by SpecOps/SOCOM troops for various reasons, not the least of which, I have found out during the course of the day, is being provided to Iraqi security forces and NATO trained Iraqi military ... but that none of it is supposed to be over here right now and IF that is the case then the brass had to come back from the big sand box. And just for kickers, I'll prove that none of that ammo was supposed to have been provided until late '07 which, if true, would make that '04 stamp very iffy.

Oh, and I'll also prove or disprove, within the next week or so hopefully, whether or not there truly was any Chinese falseys thrown into our theater of operation in '04. I've already been told today that yes, there was. But I am waiting on hard proof, in some kind of writing.

Mine will be a much more difficult endeavor, agreed?

But the bet is that if I come through with everything and you do not, you must sincerely apologize in a new thread started by you that is titled, "My name is dccliffhanger and I had a sad childhood .... nobody liked me and it turned me into the bitter, angry person I am today."

And then you gotta promise to quit being a patronizing condescending jerk and instead use some of that knowledge of yours to enrich the community and make people happier.

If you come through with everything and I do not, I shall do the same.

Deal?
Old 09-29-2010, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeK View Post
Two problems with that. First off, it's not x39, it's 5.56/.223. Secondly, it has the NATO mark.
I'm quiet aware that it's 5.56/.223 I was just using the X39 reference to discuss the possible headstamp code if that what the 04 turns out to be or not to be and was implying nothing more. The fact that it has the NATO mark means nothing except that it was product by a country in the NATO Alliance.

There are many former Warsaw Pact countries that now belong to NATO that switched for the 7.62 x 39 to either the 7.62 x 51 or the more common 5.56 just because they switched alliances and use NATO caliber weapons doesn't mean they switched there headstamp code.

If it were clandestine ammo they sure didn't mind letting the other side know NATO was involved in whatever went down. Most ammo of this type I've seen has nothing on it like the LC X39 brass case ammo

Just for conversation purposes only,one of my German friends across the pond supplied me with these photo's
Round 1
Headstamp: 04 88
Case: Steel
Projectile: Green Tip, Copper Jacket with Steel Core (SS 109)
Manufacturer: Mechanische Werkstätten Königswartha - East Germany (04)
Date: 1988
Weapon: Wieger assault rifle series (STG940)


Old 09-29-2010, 10:01 PM
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That's interesting Res45 .... very interesting. Mind if I send that pic to someone who is cataloging all the headstamps he can, and he doesn't have that one.
Old 09-30-2010, 08:06 AM
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NP fell free to use any photos I post.
Old 09-30-2010, 08:18 AM
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spooks , oh my!
Old 09-30-2010, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallo Pazzesco View Post
It's what we used to refer to as a "clandestine round." Only your CIA metallurgist knows for sure.
Nope - spook ammo has no headstamp at all. BUT it is GOOD ammo.
Old 09-30-2010, 09:20 AM
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Nope - spook ammo has no headstamp at all. BUT it is GOOD ammo.
Nope - that would be "sterile," Mike. Big difference.

I doubt there has been any sterile ammo rolled since the sixties. I would imagine that these days they'd just use ammo procured from a foreign government and run through a

Clandestine on the other hand, is something that might be used by SAS or Delta or possibly even those SEAL sissies to leave a message. That way whoever receives the message knows it was not your everyday Joes that bitch-slapped whomever it was that got bitch-slapped. It's like when Delta went in and rescued Dozier. All the media creds went to the Carbs but the ammo was U.S. NATO Clandestine ... so we knew it was Delta.

Clandestine ammo is used to take out Columbia drug factories by whatever team might be sent down there for a day.

Clandestine might be used by Delta to take out a corrupt Afghan warlord who was warned to quit porking little boys and talking to al-Qa'ida.

Clandestine might be used to leave a calling card in Belfast alongside the corpse of a particularly nasty IRA member .... the SAS actually does that all the time, but our Delta and SpecOps people have been there as well at the behest of the British and for situational training purposes.

"Spooks" don't do their own dirty work ... they never really have. That's all movie bravo sierra. Right now every single "spook" working in ghani has an Xe operator walking beside him/her or riding with him/her and protecting him/her and doing their bidding. Company people never get their hands dirty. Never have, never will. That's all hollywood hogwash, so "sterile" is not necessary these days in reality. Why would we waste our time?
Old 09-30-2010, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallo Pazzesco View Post
dc, just quit. Sometimes you just choke me blue with that nonchalant overly simplistic self absorbed hubris of yours, you know it? If you have nothing to add, just stay out of it.

But since you decided to jump in, I'll make a bet with you. You wanna make a bet? First I want you to clarify something before I absolutely give you what you've had coming for a long time.

I want you to be very succinct about your post if you do not mind?

You stated the following four things - I need you to clarify before we make our little bet so that you have no wiggle room.

1) Why clandistine? Wishful thinking? .... my question is, are you stating it is something else, made for another purpose, and that you have proof of your claim? And you prepared to share your full and vast knowledge and experience on the subject, correct?

2) The cross shows NATO acceptance .... no one has denied that, and there has been plenty of clandestine ammo produced in the past forty years with nothing but the NATO stamp. What's your point? Are you stating unequivocally that there is no way it could be a false headstamp produced by China, et al? There is no historical record of anything such as that every happening, correct? That is what you are stating?

3) The 04 is the year of mfg. .... probably, no one is denying that either. What's your point? Are you stating unequivocally that there is no other possibility for the "04" stamp? Make yourself clear.

4) It was swept up from a qualification range. Why make a big deal out of it? .... see, here is where I have a real problem with your patronizing tone. run2daHillz asked a legitimate question. He obviously has some knowledge of headstamps, as most of us reloaders do, and he was double-checking before filling it full of an explosive compound .... just in case. That's worth "making a big deal out of it." It's a safety thing and if you were half the reloader you claim to be then you would know that without having to be schooled once again. Then there is the general "fun topic" added motivation ... it's just a fun topic. Agreed? Do you agree with that or not? It's one of the things that make this board fun. Sharing. Socializing with others. Having a good time. Learning things. You lack some serious people skills fella. At any rate, then there is the whole condescending "it was swept up from a qualification range" comment. You don't know that. You haven't got a clue where it came from. None of us do. But you refuse to play nice.

So here is the bet.

You prove that it was swept up from a qualification range somewhere. You prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that it was manufactured in a NATO approved facility in 2004. Name the place, name the facility.

That's all you are being asked to do should you accept this bet.

In the meantime, I'll prove that there has been, in existence for decades now, ammo, loaded in similar brass, that has nothing but a NATO stamp on it that is employed by SpecOps/SOCOM troops for various reasons, not the least of which, I have found out during the course of the day, is being provided to Iraqi security forces and NATO trained Iraqi military ... but that none of it is supposed to be over here right now and IF that is the case then the brass had to come back from the big sand box. And just for kickers, I'll prove that none of that ammo was supposed to have been provided until late '07 which, if true, would make that '04 stamp very iffy.

Oh, and I'll also prove or disprove, within the next week or so hopefully, whether or not there truly was any Chinese falseys thrown into our theater of operation in '04. I've already been told today that yes, there was. But I am waiting on hard proof, in some kind of writing.

Mine will be a much more difficult endeavor, agreed?

But the bet is that if I come through with everything and you do not, you must sincerely apologize in a new thread started by you that is titled, "My name is dccliffhanger and I had a sad childhood .... nobody liked me and it turned me into the bitter, angry person I am today."

And then you gotta promise to quit being a patronizing condescending jerk and instead use some of that knowledge of yours to enrich the community and make people happier.

If you come through with everything and I do not, I shall do the same.

Deal?
1. Why clandistine? That is a question, not a statement.

2. You state yourself the NATO stamp is accepted.

3. Military ammo usually has the date of mfg marked if no other marking is present. I have seen many rounds with only the date stamped.

4. The origin of 99.9% of all surplus brass is a practice/qualification range. I have never seem anyone sweeping a combat area for empty brass to place on the resale market. A few rounds might be slipped in by a GI, even a couple of magazines, but cases of empty brass are usually frowned on when returning home.

Every "clandistine" outing I assisted in was equipped with either the weapons of the enemy or neutral countries. No empty brass was saved and sent home.

It's just brass. If I am wrong I am wrong, big freaking deal.

What's YOUR problem?

Want a psych analisyss? Try narcissistic personality disorder. Bet you've heard of that one prior to this.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/nar...sorder/DS00652

If the shoe fits, wear it.
Old 09-30-2010, 10:44 AM
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I bought some 7.62x51 at a gunshow from a feller that claimed it was South African. The headstamp had been cut out with a lathe. Several hundred sealed cartons stamped 7.62x51 and nothing else.
Somebody went to a lot of trouble to "sterilize" that stuff.
Was very accurate and I bought all he had.
Old 09-30-2010, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcliffhanger View Post
1. Why clandistine? That is a question, not a statement.

2. You state yourself the NATO stamp is accepted.

3. Military ammo usually has the date of mfg marked if no other marking is present. I have seen many rounds with only the date stamped.

4. The origin of 99.9% of all surplus brass is a practice/qualification range. I have never seem anyone sweeping a combat area for empty brass to place on the resale market. A few rounds might be slipped in by a GI, even a couple of magazines, but cases of empty brass are usually frowned on when returning home.

Every "clandistine" outing I assisted in was equipped with either the weapons of the enemy or neutral countries. No empty brass was saved and sent home.

It's just brass. If I am wrong I am wrong, big freaking deal.

What's YOUR problem?

Want a psych analisyss? Try narcissistic personality disorder. Bet you've heard of that one prior to this.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/nar...sorder/DS00652

If the shoe fits, wear it.
That's what I thought. ::::::::::::::: snicker ::::::::::::::

You know dc, in the great Greek heyday of Athens and world domination .... he who yelled the loudest usually won. These days he who yells the loudest, doth protest too much.

You should have been a politician, you are always the master of attempting to mix fact with fiction .... you've definitely never been a clandestine soldier, never on a clandestine ops of any kind. You know it and I know it.

This one really cracked me up ....

Quote:
Every "clandistine" outing I assisted in was equipped with either the weapons of the enemy or neutral countries. No empty brass was saved and sent home.
.... I gotta share that one on Poser Alert. lol
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