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Old 09-10-2010, 11:15 AM
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Default What Happens at Death.



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What Happens at Death.
Sent to me by a friend Bill M.Tried to post link ,no luck.Long read but a good one.

Shalom All,

More than a few years ago I was challenged to reexamine EVERYTHING that I believed concerning my "faith". The challenge was not easy; however, since there were more than a few things that just didn't add up (within popular organized christianity) I knew that I had to accept the challenge. The journey was scary at first; due to the fact that early on I discovered that almost every christian doctrine was based on paganism and roman catholic lies. I began to re-investigate everything from a fresh perspective. Scripture and Original Word Meanings took precedence over man made doctrine and opinion. My study has taken me back to the Hebrew Roots of my once feeble belief (christianity)and has established my feet upon Solid ROCK.

The place that I find myself now reminds me of the Eveready Battery commercials with Robert Conrad looking in the camera and saying, "I dare you to knock this battery off my shoulder, go ahead, I dare ya".... When one allows Scripture and Word Meanings to establish their belief system there is no one who can knock them off of the foundation they stand upon.

I recently presented the following study to our Shabbat/Sabbath study group, I was asked to take it from a Powerpoint slide and transform it into an article format for easy reading. This study and the one that follows is a result of my journey to find Truth. In the past I had been saturated in so much christian doctrine, doctrine which always seemed to be at odds with the very words contained within Scripture itself. The following study is a small part of my journey to find truth and eliminate contradiction, I hope that this truth blesses you as much as it did me a few years ago when the light of Scripture revealed the Truth about what happens at Death. Maybe you are already aware of this truth, if so, then hopefully this study will help you with giving a solid answer to anyone you have a discussion with that concerns this topic.

I will follow up with a study that concerns the topic of hell. I have noticed in the past that a thorough discussion of death usually leads into a discussion concerning hell, so stay tuned and we will tackle that issue in the coming week.

Scripture states: Whom would He teach knowledge? And whom would He make to understand the message? Those weaned from milk, those taken from the breasts! For it is: command upon command, command upon command, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little. (Isaiah/YeshaYahu 28:9-10) Again in Timothy it states: All scripture is given by inspiration of YAHUWAH, and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for setting straight, for instruction in righteousness... (2 Timothy 3:16).

Be Blessed,
Bill

What Happens at Death


The only way to understand the truth about death is to go back to the beginning, to the book of Genesis. Scriptures first chapter clearly says that YAHUWAH made the world in six days, and rested on the seventh. On day six, YAHUWAH “created man in his own image… male and female He created them” (Gen. 1:27). In the midst of a beautiful garden, YAHUAH placed two special trees called “the tree of life” and “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” (Gen. 2:9). These trees were designed to give Adam and Hawah a choice, either to follow their Maker or a rebel Watcher (Angel).

And The Eternal YAHUWAH commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree in the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die” (Gen. 2:16, 17).
Here YAHUWAH warned Adam and Hawah that if they sinned against Him by eating the forbidden fruit, they would surely die. No ifs, ands, or buts. This was the first warning YAHUWAH ever gave to the human family. And He meant it.
In Chapter 3, the drama begins. HaShatan entered Eden and perched on the inside the forbidden branches. A dialogue ensued between HaShatan and Hawah. “And HaShatan said to the woman, ‘you shall not surely die’” (Gen. 3:4, italics added). This was HaShatan’s first lie to humanity. It was a deception about death. YAHUWAH said that if Adam and Hawah sinned, they would “surely die;” but the serpent said, “you shall not surely die.” Now two voices rattled around inside Hawah’s pretty head. Which voice would she believe, that of YAHUWAH or HaShatan? Sadly, she believed the HaShatan, tasted the forbidden fruit, and then gave some to her husband, and he ate (see Gen. 3:6).
After their sin, YAHUWAH said to Adam, “In the sweat of your face shall you eat bread, until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for dust you are, and to dust you shall return” (Gen. 3:19). Thus man came from the dust, and now he was destined to return to the dust. Now notice carefully:
Then THE ETERNAL YAHUWAH said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”-- therefore THE ETERNAL YAHUWAH sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life. (Gen. 3:22-24).
Don’t miss the significance of this passage. According to the text, eating from “the tree of life” would cause Adam and Hawah to “live forever.” But now they were sinners. If they ate from the tree of life as sinners they would live forever as sinners, which would mean that sin itself would go on forever. YAHUWAH definitely didn’t want this. So He placed Watchers with fiery swords “which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.” Did Adam and Hawah, in their fallen state, ever eat from the tree of life? Obviously not. Thus fallen human beings do not naturally live forever. Instead, they die and return to the dust, just like YAHUWAH said.
This next verse reveals the simple truth: “So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died” (Gen. 5:5). YAHUWAH was right; HaShatan was wrong. Sin results in death. Adam and YAHUWAH sinned, and they died. So do we. At the end of life, we disintegrate into dirt.
Now don’t miss this point: The notion that people go to heaven or a place of punishment after death, is based on the prior assumption that the dead aren’t dead after all, that they are really alive somewhere ‘beyond the veil.’ Based on Genesis 3:4, whose slick voice first promoted that idea? It was the voice of HaShatan. Look again: “The serpent said to the woman, ‘you will not surely die.” This was the HaShatan’s line.
There are essentially two different views about the nature of man that affect one’s beliefs about what happens after death.



1. The Immortal Soul view
2. The Non-Immortal Soul view

The Immortal Soul view is believed by most of the world’s religions. The idea is that every human body houses an immortal soul that continues after death. When we die, only our body disintegrates back to dust, but the soul goes on, much like a snake shedding its skin. Of course different religions disagree with each other about where souls go after death, but the basic idea of the soul surviving physical decease is shared by most in our society. And like it or not, the Immortal Soul doctrine is the basis of the belief that we can talk to the dead. The reason is simple: the dead supposedly aren’t really dead. This view was introduced into christianity by Augustine and was heavily influenced by his Greek world-view.



The Non-Immortal Soul view is different and contends that – Scripturally speaking – the word “soul” applies to the entire person. When YAHUWAH first created Adam in Paradise, He “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul” (Genesis 2:7). Thus man doesn’t have a separate soul, but rather he is a soul (see also Yohoshua 10:35, 37, 39; Lev. 23:30; Acts 27:37, KJV). After man sinned, his entire person, or soul, became mortal, or subject to death. When a sinner dies, he or she returns to the dust, and “the breath of life” returns to YAHUWAH. This “breath” is not a conscious entity, but is the spark of life that exists in everything alive. At death, the sinner is truly dead – unconscious, asleep, waiting for the resurrection. This view is sometimes called “soul sleep.”



Which view is right? What does Scripture really say? I am going to build a case for the non-immortality of the soul. We will examine the passages about being “absent from the body” (2 Cor. 5:, the thief on the Stake (Luke 23:43), the appearance of Moshe and EliYahu (Matthew 17:3), the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31), Shaul’s desire to depart and be with Messiah (Phil. 1:23) and the martyred souls under the altar (Rev. 6:9-11). These verses are often quoted to support the Immortal Soul teaching. Do they really? We hope to find out. At some time in the future, we will closely examine another hot topic – the doctrine of Hell or Hades, properly interpreted Grave.



First, let’s see what the Scripture say about “immortality.” As we already discovered, after Adam and Hawah sinned they were barred from the tree of life, lest they should “eat, and live forever” (Gen. 3:22-24). The message here is that sinners do not naturally “live forever.” Sha’ul wrote that we “seek for glory and honor and immortality” (Romans 2:7) and that Natsarim will “put on immortality” (1 Cor. 15:53, 54) on Resurrection Day. Presently, YAHUWAH “only has immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach” (1 Tim. 6:16). To me, these verses are clear. Fallen man is not immortal.



Next, what does Scripture say happens at death? Notice carefully: “The living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing…there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, where you are going” (Eccl. 9:5, 10). “For in death there is no remembrance of You, in the grave who shall give You thanks?” (Psalm 6:5). “The dead praise not YAHUWAH, neither any that go down into silence” (Psalm 115:17). “His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish” (Psalm 146:4). These Scripture verses say that after death a person knows nothing, has no thoughts and lies silent in the grave. This is YAHUWAH’S Word, not my opinion.



Next, death is sleep. David spoke of “the sleep of death” (Psalm 13:3). All throughout the Tanak, when kings died, they “slept with their fathers” (1 Kings 2:10). The same is true in the Messianic Writings. When Lazarus died, Yahusha Messiah said, “Our friend Lazarus is sleeping… Yahusha spoke of his death” (John 11:11-13). After Stephen was martyred, “he fell asleep” (Acts 7:60). Dead Natsarim “sleep in Yahusha” (1 Thess. 4:14). Daniel wrote that at the end of time, “many who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2). Thus the dead are sleeping in the dust of the earth. Someday, they will wake up.



Finally, the Natsarim’s hope is the return of Yahusha Messiah and the resurrection. When our Master returns, “the dead in Messiah shall rise…so shall we ever be with YAHUWAH” (1 Thess. 4:16, 17). Look closely. Shaul said Natsarim will “be with YAHUWAH” when He returns. Yahusha taught the same thing when He promised His disciples, “I will come again, and receive you to Myself” (John 14:3). Again, look closely. Yahusha did not say, “I’ll meet you in Heaven when you die,” but that He would receive us when He returns.



Ultimately, The Scriptures truth is comforting. Our beloved dead are sleeping quietly, awaiting the resurrection when Yahusha returns. Truth also protects us from being deceived by heartless, tricky Fallen Watchers who can easily impersonate the dead. I encourage you to continue studying this topic prayerfully. The words of Yahusha Himself:


Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation (John 5:28, 29, NKJV). So going straight to heaven or a place of torment immediately upon death puts the cart before the horse, how can you have punishment before judgment?


I have come to believe that when human beings die, they are dead, asleep in their graves, waiting for “the resurrection at the last day” (John 11:24). Death, burial and resurrection, this is what YAHUWAH’S Word says.


I realize that this is in opposition to what most of mainline cretin (christian) denominations believe. Most believe that when we die, only our bodies disintegrate to dust, whereas our souls instantly enter the presence of “Yahushua”. Personally, I don’t believe this due to the fact like most other christian doctrines it cannot be found in Scripture. Let us now closely examine some well-known texts within Scripture normally used to support the “we go to Heaven immediately at death” doctrine. Much is at stake here. Please consider my arguments, and then come to your own conclusions based on Scripture, not roman catholic fable.


Absent from the body, present with the Master? (2 Cor. 5:: This is probably the main Scripture used to support the common view. The exact text reads, “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Master.” Sha’ul is clearly talking about a transition from this sinful “body” to being “present with the Master.” There is no question about this. But notice carefully that in this verse Sha’ul doesn’t specifically say when this transition occurs. Most assume he meant at death. Did he? Could he have meant on Resurrection Day when Yahusha Messiah returns? Amazingly, we don’t have to guess, for the following verses make Sha’ul’s meaning plain.

Four verses earlier Paul said this transition occurs when “mortality” is “swallowed up by life” (2 Cor. 5:4). When is that? If we back up a few chapters to Sha’ul’s first letter to the Corinthians, the answer is obvious. Notice carefully:

Behold, I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? (1 Corinthians 15:51-55)

Here Paul is writing about the climactic return of Yahusha Messiah and the resurrection of YAHUWAH’S saints. Sha’ul called death “sleep” (verse 51). He also said we are currently “mortal” (verse 53). Finally, he clarified that when “the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised… then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory” (verses 52-54). Add 2 + 2. In 2 Corinthians 5:4 and 5:8, Sha’ul said the transition from this sinful “body” to being “present with the Master” occurs when “mortality is swallowed up by life.” In 1 Corinthians 15:51-55, he clarified that this “mortal” will “put on immortality” and that death will be “swallowed up in victory” at the Second Coming of Yahusha Messiah. Beyond this, did Sha’ul clarify anywhere else at what point believers will be “present with the Master”? Yes indeed. Once again, notice carefully:

For The Master himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of THE ETERNAL ONE: and the dead in Messiah shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet YAHUAH in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Master (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17).

These verses parallel 1 Corinthians 15:51-55, which explain 2 Corinthians 5:4-8. According to 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17, when will believers get to be “present with YAHUWAH”? Answer: When Yahusha Messiah comes crashing into our polluted atmosphere with a shout, a voice, and the ear splitting trumpet of THE ETERNAL ONE! That trumpet will be so loud it will pierce the slumbering ears of those who have died trusting the Resurrected One. They will burst out of their clammy graves. How awesome! Then those of us who are still living (I hope to be among this group) will be “caught up” into the greatest space ride humans have ever experienced. And then? Don’t miss it: “so shall we ever be with the Master.” This is the Word of YAHUWAH!!

Solomon said that “there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going” (Ecclesiastes 9:10) and that “the dead know nothing” (Ecclesiastes 9:5). Both the Tanak and Messianic Writings plainly teach that the dead “sleep in the dust of the earth” (Daniel 12:2) as they await the resurrection (see Psalm 13:3; John 5:28, 29; 11:11-14; Acts 7:60; 1 Corinthians 15:6, 51-55). Messiah Yahusha said concerning the man who dies believing in Him, “I will raise him up at the last day” (John 6:44). I have found this to be the consistent teaching of Scripture.

As I previously mentioned before, there are many cretins (christians) that feel certain passages within Scripture support a different view – that of immediate entrance into heaven, or of instant descent into punishing-fire. We have already looked at 2 Corinthians 5:8 where Sha’ul wrote about being “absent from the body and present with the Master.” It’s time to look at another well-known passage.
The thief on the Stake (Luke 23:42,43): On history’s darkest day, as the Son of YAHUWAH hung suspended between heaven and earth bearing the sins of the world, a dying criminal crucified beside Yahusha breathed hopefully, “Master, remember me when you come into your kingdom” (Luke 23:42). The King responded, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise” (verse 43). Many interpret The Messiah’s response as conclusive evidence that the dying thief’s soul was instantly ushered into the presence of Yahusha on that very day. I disagree. Here’s why:
First, the dying thief pleaded, “Master, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Thus the thief hoped to be remembered at the Second Coming of Yahusha Messiah, not before. Second, Yahusha Himself did not go to Paradise that day, but into Yoseph’s tomb. Three days later, after rising from the dead, Yahusha candidly told Mary, “I have not yet ascended to My Father” (John 20:17). Thus our Master did not ascend to glory on the day of His death. Thirdly, Yahusha clarified that His followers will be with Him when He returns. “I will come again”, He promised, “and receive you to Myself” (John 14:3). Sha’ul taught the same thing when he wrote that true believers will get to “be with the Master” when He descends from heaven and resurrects the dead (see 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17). So what did Yahusha mean when He spoke to the dying thief?

Believe it or not, the confusion stems from one tiny piece of punctuation called a ‘comma.’ Before we look again at Messiah’s exact words to the thief, let me clarify that Scripture calls itself “the Word of YAHUWAH”, not “the Comma of YAHUWAH”. The fact is that punctuation and commas were added to the inspired text many years after the Messianic Writings was written. It is the same with the numbering of verses. Whatever translation you are reading from, The Scripture says “43” before Messiah’s response the dying thief. “42” comes before that, then “41”, etcetera. Guess what? Luke didn’t write “41” or “42” or “43” or “44.” He just wrote one book of Luke. It wasn’t until many years later that men numbered the verses to make it easier for us to find them. I’m glad they did. It helps. But they also added commas where they assumed they should go. So let’s remove the comma and look at what Yahusha literally said to the thief. His exact words were:

Assuredly I say to you today you will be with Me in Paradise (Luke 23:43).
Now, if you place the comma before the word “today,” which is where most Translation place it, then Yahusha told the thief, “today you will be with Me in Paradise.” But if you place the comma after the word “today,” Messiah’s meaning is switched entirely. Then Yahusha would have said, “I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.” In other words, Messiah would be telling the thief, “I tell you today” (right then two thousand years ago) that he would be with Him in the future when He returns. The placement of the comma after the word today actually agrees completely with The Aramaic text as well as agreeing with the syntax of the Greek text.
The Messiah (not translators) makes the answer clear as to where the comma should go. First, Yahusha didn’t go to Paradise that day. Second, on Yom Ri-Shon (Day One) morning He had not yet ascended to His Father (see John 20:17). Thirdly, and most importantly, Yahusha never contradicted Himself. He plainly promised His followers, “I will come again and receive you to Myself” (John 14:3).

Elvis Presley. Marilyn Monroe. Princess Diana. Ronald Reagan. Pope John Paul II – what do they have in common? They’re all famous, and they’re all dead. No matter how large a person’s bank account, or how attractive their physical appearance, or even how close to YAHUWAH they may become in this life, “All things come alike to all: One event happens to the righteous and to the wicked; to the good, the clean, and the unclean… after that they go to the dead” (Ecclesiastes 9:2, 3). “But in this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes,” penned Benjamin Franklin. He was correct.

So far I have built a case that when human beings dies – whether saints or sinners – they are truly dead, that is, they lie unconscious in their graves awaiting the resurrection. To briefly summarize, Solomon said “the dead know nothing” (Ecclesiastes 9:5) and that “there is no work, or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going” (Ecclesiastes 9:10). David wrote about “the sleep of death” (Psalm 13:3), Daniel said the dead “sleep in the dust of the earth” (Daniel 12:2), and Yahusha Messiah emphatically declared that someday “all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come forth–those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation” (John 5:28, 29). These passages describe man’s condition at death, his sleeping in the grave, and finally – a bodily resurrection back to life.

To repeat what I have stated previously, I realize that majority opinion thinks differently. Shortly after Pope John Paul II died at the ripe age of 84, Vatican officials declared that their departed leader was now “looking down from heaven” after being “welcomed into the presence of Yahushua.” I don’t think so. Based on thorough study of Scripture, I believe Pope John Paul II and countless others are not in heaven at this exact moment. Rather, they are silently sleeping in their graves waiting for Resurrection Day. Furthermore based on thorough study of Scripture, the closest John Paul II would have ever been to heaven is when he took a plane ride.

We have examined two passages from Scripture often quoted to support the common view of ‘instant heaven at death’: 1) Shaul’s expression about longing to be “absent from the body” and “present with the Master” (2 Cor. 5:: and 2) Messiah Yahusha’s promise to a dying thief about being with Him in Paradise (Luke 23:42, 43). For those who have read through the study thus far, I think the arguments are convincing. It’s time to examine a few more verses that I believe are often misinterpreted to teach ‘instant heaven’ rather than the doctrine of literal death, unconscious sleep, and future bodily resurrection.
Sha’ul’s “desire to depart and be with Messiah” (Phil. 1:23): Sha’ul knew that sometime after he died he would be with Yahusha, yet it is an assumption to think that in Philippians 1:23 he meant at the moment of his death. In another letter, Sha’ul clarified that he expected to “always be with the Master” when Messiah Yahusha returned to resurrect the dead (read 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17). It is significant to note that the very last letter Sha’ul penned was 2 Timothy. In that letter’s concluding chapter, notice carefully Shaul’s ‘famous last words’:
For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Master, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing (2 Timothy 4:6-.
Here again Sha’ul clarified – just like he did in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17 – that he looked forward to being with Yahusha Messiah on “the Day” of “His appearing”.
Souls under the altar (Revelation 6:9-11): In the book of Revelation, Yahanan beheld under a heavenly “altar” “the souls” of many Natsarim martyrs calling out for vengeance against their persecutors. “There!” some claim, “There are souls alive in heaven after they died!” But look closer. This entire passage is filled with symbolism. In the same chapter Yahanan also saw four horses with riders, the fourth rider being “Death” itself, followed by “Hell” (Revelation 6:1-. Can “Death” literally ride a horse? Are literal souls crammed underneath a physical altar? Not a very pleasant place to hang out, do you think? Scripturally speaking, the idea of martyred souls crying out for vengeance is rooted in Genesis 4 when YAHUWAH told Cain after he murdered Abel, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground!” (Gen. 4:10) Does this mean that Abel’s blood literally muttered syllables through dirt? Obviously not. Again, this is symbolic. One must put on their thinking cap when reading Scripture, the book of Revelation is a very figurative speaking book.
The appearance of Moshe and EliYahu (Luke 9:28-32): Not long before Yahusha died on the stake for the sins of the world, “Moshe and EliYahu” appeared to comfort the Messiah. This supposedly proves that Moshe, EliYahu, and all the saints are now alive ‘on the other side’. But it doesn’t. First of all, it was not disembodied ‘souls’ that appeared before Messiah and His disciples, but “two men” (Luke 9:30) in physical form. Second, EliYahu himself never died, but was translated in Tanak times without seeing death (see 2 Kings 2:11). Thirdly, Moshes did die, but Jude 9 implies that “the body of Moshe” was at some point raised back to life. In Luke 9:28-32, EliYahu appeared representing all those who shall one day be translated at the Second Coming of Yahusha Messiah, while Moshe represented all others who shall be resurrected “at the last day” (see John 11:24). Again, the text says “two men,” not two ghosts. Why did Moshe and Eliyahu appear? To encourage Yahusha to go through with His death, burial, and resurrection, and to provide a witness to the three (Talmidim) disciples that were with him.
At this point I think I have stated all I can concerning death without having to cover the issue of hell. Part two of this study will look further into what happens at death as well as shed light on the truth concerning the doctrine of hell. Ninety percent of christian doctrine (including what most christians believe about death) find their root in paganism and Greek Philosophy, stay tuned as I pull back the curtain and exposes christian error with The Light of YAHUWAH’s Truth.
“Let not your heart be troubled. Believe in YAHUWAH, believe also in Me. “In My Father’s house are many residences. And if not, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I shall come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, you might be too”.
I would like to thank Steve Wohlberg for allowing me to use some of his study material and giving me permission to edit some of his work. YAHUWAH used Steve to challenge me to reexamine everything that I believed.
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Old 09-10-2010, 11:59 AM
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Amazingly, the truth of this matter is hard to swallow for those who have been led the other direction for so long. Catholics cashed in on this for years, teaching satanic doctrines such as purgatory...and for money they could shorten the time spent there for loved ones! Sad, truly sad...

At death (sleep, as referred to in Scripture), the next waking moment will be the resurrection! No conscience passing of time, just awaking to the 7th.trump blast at His return! Yom Teruah!

Great post Skyking...people need to know these things and come out from under the traditions and teachings of men.
Old 09-10-2010, 12:01 PM
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Wow !!!!!

I agree .

I can't wait for part two .
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Old 09-10-2010, 01:01 PM
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I have had to reexamine my belief that my Dad is up in Heaven, and aunts, and various people I have known & loved.
I never quite believed it, but I hoped for it to be so.
I believe now they are resting, and amazingly that is not heartbreaking to me. I keep thinking that they are all just 'asleep' and if its been 1 day or 3,000 years when they are resurrected it will feel like they just got a good nights sleep

I know that when someone really close to me dies now, its sad because their life is over and we will miss them the rest of the days of our life - but I no longer grieve without hope.

I know I will see them at the resurrection.
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Old 09-10-2010, 01:29 PM
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why do Christians say "shalom"?

It sounds as silly as someone saying konichiwa in LA, or "howdy" in Japan. It's not offensive, just really silly.
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Old 09-10-2010, 01:32 PM
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How do you know they have not been resurrected already?

I combine my beliefs in science and faith with this. I think of the conservation of energy, you die, your soul becomes a part of the ground. lets say a tree grows there, your "energy" (not necessarily soul) is used by tree. Tree makes apple, pregnant mother eats apple, baby has your soul and the cycle starts over again.

That's part of the reason I'd rather be cremated, it seems that if you are in a coffin the chances of you becoming part of the earth again aren't that good for a long time.
Old 09-10-2010, 01:41 PM
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More than a few years ago I was challenged to reexamine EVERYTHING that I believed concerning my "faith". The challenge was not easy; however, since there were more than a few things that just didn't add up (within popular organized christianity) I knew that I had to accept the challenge. The journey was scary at first; due to the fact that early on I discovered that almost every christian doctrine was based on paganism and roman catholic lies.
What are those doctrines that are based on paganism, and what are those Catholic lies? Why should any person necessarily believe these unsubstantiated claims?

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Originally Posted by Skyking
I began to re-investigate everything from a fresh perspective. Scripture and Original Word Meanings took precedence over man made doctrine and opinion.
You are presuming the unbiblical doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

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Originally Posted by Skyking
My study has taken me back to the Hebrew Roots of my once feeble belief (christianity)and has established my feet upon Solid ROCK.
Wrong. Until Sola Scriptura is proved, your feet are on sand.

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Originally Posted by Skyking
The place that I find myself now reminds me of the Eveready Battery commercials with Robert Conrad looking in the camera and saying, "I dare you to knock this battery off my shoulder, go ahead, I dare ya".... When one allows Scripture and Word Meanings to establish their belief system there is no one who can knock them off of the foundation they stand upon.
Okay, prove Sola Scriptura.

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Originally Posted by Skyking
Again in Timothy it states: All scripture is given by inspiration of YAHUWAH, and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for setting straight, for instruction in righteousness... (2 Timothy 3:16).
I'll bet your Bible is missing a few books. If that is the case, you can't have all Scripture. Anyway, how do you know that what Scripture you do have is in fact inspired of God?
Old 09-10-2010, 01:41 PM
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why do Christians say "shalom"?
Why do you say anything?
Old 09-10-2010, 04:24 PM
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In reference to those who know the Gospel is true:
This life is the time to prepare to meet God. In this life you become who you are going to be in a general sense. In other words, have you become the type of person who exercises faith in Christ, do you seek to repent of your sins through his atonement. Are you earnestly trying as hard as you can to become like Christ? Are you enduring to the end? If you are this type of person, the Grace of Christ will be sufficient for you and you will be washed clean of all your sins because of the mercy and grace of Christ, not because you are perfect, but because you have offered a broken heart and a contrite spirit unto Christ.
If you are not doing these things here upon this earth and do not become this type of person while here upon this earth, then when you die, you stay that way and the mercy and grace of Christ does not wash away your sins, but you pay for them. In other words you have procrastinated your repentance until it is everlastingly to late. Alma is clear about this. Who can dispute this? Who will twist his words into something that will ease their own conscience.
Now those who have not received the Gospel are just as God sees fit. He knows all things and will judge men according to the body, while in the spirit. That is what temple work for the dead is all about. They can not be held accountable for what they did not know, or were not taught. But those of us who have gained the knowledge of the Gospel are held to such.
It is against the words of Alma, thus the Lord, to teach principles that say we who have received the Gospel in this life can live unrighteously, die then figure it out later. That somehow we can repent later. We will pay the price of our own sins, which caused even God to bleed from every pore.

Alma 34

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.


(Doctrine and Covenants 19:16-18.)

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—


Notice this says "body". The only body your spirit possesses after death is the one you are resurrected into. So you can not repent after death and are resurrected into the type of body that fits who you are. That is it. You are limited to that body. You do not get another one.
Old 09-10-2010, 05:51 PM
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Why do you say anything?
Good question ! My guess would be .....he wishes to be viewed as a troll . Mission accomplished .
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Old 09-10-2010, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Singular1ty View Post
why do Christians say "shalom"?

It sounds as silly as someone saying konichiwa in LA, or "howdy" in Japan. It's not offensive, just really silly.
Thank you for your wonderful assessment ....I'll throw it in the trashcan marked " Singular1ty opinions " .

It's not offensive ... just really silly .
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Old 09-10-2010, 06:59 PM
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Amazingly, the truth of this matter is hard to swallow for those who have been led the other direction for so long.
On what authority are you proclaiming the "truth of this matter?"

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Originally Posted by temu
Catholics cashed in on this for years, teaching satanic doctrines such as purgatory...and for money they could shorten the time spent there for loved ones! Sad, truly sad…
What is sad, truly sad … is that you cannot address Catholic doctrine in a truthful manner. Anyway, how have you determined that Catholic doctrine regarding Purgatory is false?

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Originally Posted by temu
At death (sleep, as referred to in Scripture), the next waking moment will be the resurrection! No conscience passing of time, just awaking to the 7th.trump blast at His return! Yom Teruah!
Your assessment of this matter is at odds with Scripture.

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"There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz'arus, full of sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz'arus in his bosom. And he called out, `Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz'arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.' But Abraham said, `Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz'arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.'

And he said, `Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' But Abraham said, `They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' And he said, `No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' He said to him, `If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.'" [Luke 16:19-31]
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Then Saul said to his servants, "Seek out for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her." And his servants said to him, "Behold, there is a medium at Endor."

So Saul disguised himself and put on other garments, and went, he and two men with him; and they came to the woman by night. And he said, "Divine for me by a spirit, and bring up for me whomever I shall name to you." The woman said to him, "Surely you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off the mediums and the wizards from the land. Why then are you laying a snare for my life to bring about my death?" But Saul swore to her by the LORD, "As the LORD lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing." Then the woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" He said, "Bring up Samuel for me."

When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul." The king said to her, "Have no fear; what do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see a god coming up out of the earth." He said to her, "What is his appearance?" And she said, "An old man is coming up; and he is wrapped in a robe." And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground, and did obeisance.

Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" Saul answered, "I am in great distress; for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams; therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do."

And Samuel said, "Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy? The LORD has done to you as he spoke by me; for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand, and given it to your neighbor, David. Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD, and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Am'alek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day. Moreover the LORD will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines; and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me; the LORD will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines."

Then Saul fell at once full length upon the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel; and there was no strength in him, for he had eaten nothing all day and all night. [1 Samuel 28:7-20]
Continuing ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by temu
Great post Skyking...people need to know these things and come out from under the traditions and teachings of men.
How does one discern that you are not in fact spouting traditions and teachings of men?
Old 09-12-2010, 04:01 PM
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Wrong. Until Sola Scriptura is proved, your feet are on sand

Have you had any luck with this one???

Tradition is all you got! i think

Last edited by Standox; 09-12-2010 at 04:02 PM.. Reason: type o
Old 09-12-2010, 05:24 PM
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Strange, is it not? That of the myriads who
Before us passed the door of darkness through
Not one returns to tell us of the road
Which to discover we must travel too.
Omar Khayyam
Old 09-12-2010, 05:31 PM
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How does one discern that you are not in fact spouting traditions and teachings of men?
Because I'm not catholic.
Old 09-12-2010, 07:31 PM
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Anyway, how have you determined that Catholic doctrine regarding Purgatory is false?
Because it is a lie from hell...or purgatory? Yahshua's blood does it for me, but NOT for catholics! It was a scheme hatched by the harlot church to scare the money out of the pockets of the poor deceived folks who believe the lies. And to pillage them out of money while they are grieving for their dead, no less!

Let everyman decide for themselves the wickedness here.


Thomas Aquinas held that the least pain in purgatory was greater than the worst in this life. Bonaventure said the worst suffering after death was greater than the worst on earth, but the same could not be said regarding the least purgatorial suffering.

Most Catholic theologians hold, with Bellarmine, that in some way the pains of purgatory are greater than those on earth.

Source: The Catholic Catechism, by John A. Harden, S.J., published by Doubleday, copyright 1981, bearing the Imprimatur, Nihil Obstat and Imprimi Potest of the Catholic Church, page 279.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As regards the intensity of the suffering, Bellarmine, a noted Roman Catholic theologian, says:

"The pains in purgatory are very severe, surpassing anything endured in this life."

The Manual of the Purgatorial Society, with the imprimatur of Cardinal Hayes, says:

"According to the Holy Fathers of the Church, the fire of purgatory does not differ from the fire of hell, except in point of duration.

'It is the same fire,' says St. Thomas Aquinas, 'that torments the reprobate in hell, and the just in purgatory. The least pain in purgatory,' he says, "surpasses the greatest suffering in this life. ' Nothing but the eternal duration makes the fire of hell more terrible than that of purgatory."

And in another book with the imprimatur of archbishop Spellman (now Cardinal), Bellarmine is quoted as saying:

"There is absolutely no doubt that the pains of purgatory in some cases endure for entire centuries" (John M. Haffert, Saturday in Purgatory).

Sound bad? INDEED! But for a PRICE, the whore of babylon can reduce your time spent there!

MUCH more here:
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/prgtory.htm
Old 09-12-2010, 07:44 PM
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What happens at death OP?



I'll check back in with this thread and report to you once I'm dead.
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Old 09-12-2010, 07:55 PM
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How can God kill Himself, the Soul of a human is a part of God



What is Heaven and Hell?




Heaven and hell is where the soul receives its punishment and reward after death. Yes, Judaism believes in, and Jewish traditional sources extensively discuss, punishment and reward in the afterlife (indeed, it is one of the "Thirteen Principles" of Judaism enumerated by Maimonides). But these are a very different "heaven" and "hell" than what one finds described in medieval Christian texts or New Yorker cartoons. Heaven is not a place of halos and harps, nor is hell populated by those red creatures with pitchforks depicted on the label of non-kosher canned meat.

After death, the soul returns to its Divine Source, together with all the G-dliness it has "extracted" from the physical world by using it for meaningful purposes. The soul now relives its experiences on another plane, and experiences the good it accomplished during its physical lifetime as incredible happiness and pleasure, and the negative as incredibly painful.

This pleasure and pain are not reward and punishment in the conventional sense--in the sense that we might punish a criminal by sending him to jail or reward a dedicated employee with a raise. It is rather that we experience our own life in its reality--a reality from which we were sheltered during our physical lifetimes. We experience the true import and effect of our actions. Turning up the volume on that TV set with that symphony orchestra can be intensely pleasurable or intensely painful,8--depending on how we played the music of our lives.

When the soul departs from the body, it stands before the Heavenly Court to give a "judgment and accounting" of its earthly life.9 But the Heavenly Court only does the "accounting" part; the "judgment" part--that only the soul itself can do.10 Only the soul can pass judgment on itself--only it can know and sense the true extent of what it accomplished, or neglected to accomplish, in the course of its physical life. Freed from the limitations and concealments of the physical state, it can now see G-dliness; it can now look back at its own life and experience what it truly was. The soul's experience of the G-dliness it brought into the world with its mitzvot and positive actions is the exquisite pleasure of Gan Eden (the "Garden of Eden"--i.e., Paradise); its experience of the destructiveness it wrought through its lapses and transgressions is the excruciating pain of Gehinom ("Gehenna" or "Purgatory").

The truth hurts. The truth also cleanses and heals. The spiritual pain of gehinom--the soul's pain in facing the truth of its life--cleanses and heals the soul of the spiritual stains and blemishes that its failings and misdeeds have attached to it. Freed of this husk of negativity, the soul is now able to fully enjoy the immeasurable good that its life engendered and "bask in the Divine radiance" emitted by the G-dliness it brought into the world

http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...ter-We-Die.htm




The spiritual pain of gehinom To think that this is a physical pain or fire is absurd an a joke!

Last edited by Standox; 09-12-2010 at 08:02 PM.. Reason: add something
Old 09-12-2010, 08:28 PM
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I don't know CRAP! about death except when i meet it then i will find out. Just have seen some strange things in this world and for some one to tell me it's this or that and they have not been there, because those who have died and come back, haven't really died or they would be dead as a door knob now. Reincarnation, now there's something ta wrap ya mind around. Messy stuff death, it is something we all will face. What comes after i don't know and no one else on this earth does either, that's the truth, i reckon.
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Old 09-12-2010, 08:46 PM
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When you die, your soul leaves your body right before death. I've experienced it. I died for over 15 minutes according to the medical reports.I laid there wounded and bleeding to death.They brought me back. I WAS DECLARED DEAD. I felt myself leaving and going back to my body.I had a out of body experience. I seen the bright light and by soul headed toward it. I went through this dark tunnel with clay walls.

At the end of the tunnel it felt like I was leaving a grave. You could see the blue sky and the sunny day. At the edge of the grave you could see the green grass around the edges of the hole. It seem like it was another earth or another dimension.Just when things were getting good ,I winded up back in my body.I will never forget that day.
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