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Old 08-29-2010, 07:20 AM
gondwana gondwana is offline
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Default Take Down Rifles



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Going with the premise (hopefully lol) that the only dumb question is the one you don't ask I'm wanting to know about take down type rifles. Just seen (catalogue) some very nice take down lever actions and wondering are there any disadvantages with them being in a coupla peices and all? :-)

They end up nice & compact when packed and can be far easy to carry and I guess conceal on a motorbike, so thinking they might be good for what I need.

Not after a combat ready thing, something that can pack & stack easily & perform as well as the same rifle thats not Take Down.

Sorry if this is still the dumbest question...never used one so its new for me. (Besides I got far dumber questions to ask later I'm sure hahaha)

Oops, second question, scope mounts, years ago a guy I knew had some very expensive scope mounts, supposedly flick the lver & the clip off can be stored/packed etc & when you remount them on the same gun, everything zeros in as it was pre-taking them off. I guess you can tell I never use a scope, always iron sights, except I'm getting older, eye sight isn't that of a 20 year old anymore & will have to go to a scope sonner or later. Was thinking a take down lever action & a scope like this would be really good for what I want, compactable but easily put together with fairly good expectation of good performance...or leastways consistant.


Cheers & thanks in advance
pete
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Old 08-29-2010, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gondwana View Post
...I'm wanting to know about take down type rifles. Just seen (catalogue) some very nice take down lever actions and wondering are there any disadvantages with them being in a coupla peices and all? :-)
Only disadvantage is loosing a piece while it is in two pieces. A takedown screw for example.
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Old 08-29-2010, 07:50 AM
gondwana gondwana is offline
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Chhers for that vicdotcom, of course I got off my lazy rear & googled quick release rifle scopes and there's plenty but I don't which ones (if any) are good...for the record the ironic and funny part is, they must have been real expensive way back years ago when this guy bought them but strangely he never unclipped them & kept the hole shooting match together in a hard case in case it didn't actually zero hahaha

I guess you're dead right re the small parts going missing, I guess just got to be extra extra careful pulling down & packing it all. Duct tape can do a lot but not everything huh? ;-)
Old 08-29-2010, 08:07 AM
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Take down leverguns, such as the ones you are probably referring to from Wild West Guns, particularly their Alaskan Co-Pilot, are designed with ease of reassembly in mind. Others of various make, model and design such as the M6 Scout, AR-7, the Marlin Papoose, the Rossi and H&R single shots, etc., are all simplistically designed, enough so as not to warrant too much worry about repair in a shtf situation.

Take down pins come in a variety of choices these days btw - many of which are made to be less losable than they used to be.

IMHO, with the exception of the Alaskan Co-Pilot, no take down is inherently as accurate as one that is not a take down, but still, you're more likely to have a take down type rifle tucked away somewhere in a time of need, particular in a car, truck, a pack or on a plane, and therefore it is by far better than nothing.

Scopes, the glass, is relevant. I feel your pain where the eyesight is concerned and getting older and all that. To overcome certain issues when combining glass with a take down rifle of any sort ... rails, tick marks, quick release mounts, smaller sizes, etc., are all important and to be chosen and performed with some degree of caution as to make sure you get it done right the first time.

IMHO there is no take down made that would benefit from anything more powerful than a 2x in terms of glass, with simple crosshair reticles.
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Old 08-29-2010, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallo Pazzesco View Post
...IMHO, with the exception of the Alaskan Co-Pilot, no take down is inherently as accurate as one that is not a take down, but still, you're more likely to have a take down type rifle tucked away somewhere in a time of need, particular in a car, truck, a pack or on a plane, and therefore it is by far better than nothing..... IMHO there is no take down made that would benefit from anything more powerful than a 2x in terms of glass, with simple crosshair reticles.
My friend, I am a gunsmith. I build scout rifles. I build takedown scout rifles when the customers cross my palm with enough silver. I take exception to the comment you made above concerning accuracy, because my takedowns use the same method as the Savage 110s use, the Brewer Collar. (Us machine shop types just call it a lock-nut.) They are as accurate as the parent gun was. I also use the method in making up my target rifles, because barrel change is easier, and the edge is gone after 5000 or 6000 rounds.

I build on bolt actions. Usually, I build on the Number 4 Enfield, because it converts readily to .45-70, and I was fortunate enough to get ahold of one of the Remington-Lee magazines before Numrich ran out of them, so I have a pattern to build from.

Insofar as your observations on scope power is concerned, it is right on except for your choice of reticle. Cooper's 12 MOA transparent amber triangle is a better choice for field work than is a simple crosshair, and I have used a post and interruputed crosshair for many years myself. It's nice to find somebody else who likes Jim West's CoPilot carbine.
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Old 08-29-2010, 01:00 PM
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The takedown mechanism design by John Browning for the Winchester lever action designs is very good and can be tightened up as needed to account for thread wear.
I have worked with Winchester m1886 rifles and m1897 shotguns that were still tight.

Some of the other mechanisms, not so much.

Unless you constantly twiddle with the weapon, my guess is that most any tack down system will remain tight for decades of use.
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Old 08-29-2010, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallo Pazzesco View Post
IMHO, with the exception of the Alaskan Co-Pilot, no take down is inherently as accurate as one that is not a take down, but still, you're more likely to have a take down type rifle tucked away somewhere in a time of need, particular in a car, truck, a pack or on a plane, and therefore it is by far better than nothing.
Marlin 39A. Takedown capable and dead nuts accurate.
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Old 08-29-2010, 03:16 PM
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I have a Mariln 45-70 take down which will hang with the best of them for accuracy.

Just how FAR are you talking about? Inside 100 yards I can stack them. At 300 yards I have to arch them into the target but, then again, I shoot for meat and a hit is a hit.
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Old 08-30-2010, 06:17 PM
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Steyr AUG breaks down to 20", slightly less if you want to take the reciever off. It goes together very fast. Larue mounted optics will maintain zero.

AR's come apart to 22" or so for an M4.

Alaska Co-Pilot is about 18" and powerful but I wouldn't give WWG my money if it meant a tax audit.

IMI Timberwolf in 38/357 or 44 Special/44 Mag is about 24" in two pieces and functions exactly like an 870.

Double barrel shotguns break down nicely, as do Drillings.
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Old 08-31-2010, 01:22 PM
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Here are some examples...Just click on the links for their sites.


Browning BLR Take down as does the Winchester Models 1895 & 1892


Dakota Model 76 Traveler Bolt Action Take down


Karl Hauptmann Single shot in attache case one of many hundreds of German, Italian etc. custom makers.


Don't forget the excellent Thompson Center Encore or Contender like these custom jobs by Van Horn.

Ottrer custom T/C pistols


J.P. Sauer bolt action system --
Also Merkel,
Blaser and
Krieghoff have variants.

Many BR shooters will have what's called a "switch barrel" gun where they'll use a super heavy barrel for target work in 6mm and have a lighter barrel for varmint, using the same action and bolt in .243.

What's nice with the single/double barrel break action rifles is not only are they take down but you can switch to another calibre just by placing in a new barrel assembly--It will work with bolt actions as long as the case head is about the same size otherwise you'd have to add a bolt with the barrel.

I'm getting an attache case gun set in 6.5mm, 7mm, 7.5mm, 8mm, 9.3mm just don't by whom yet or in a bolt action as long as I can keep the case size like with .243, .260, 7mm-08, .338, .375 all on the .308 Win case/action.

There are numerous detachable scope systems out there from Claw mounts to little levers on the bases etc...Some are designed for only one gun others you can switch the scope between different rifle and/or calibres with ease--as long as you have the click chart for each calibre to sight in you're fine.
Made by:
Talley,
Ernest Apel,
MAK Kilic,
Millet,
V J C,
Warne
New England Custom Gun -- Installer par excellence
to name a few...hope it helps
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Old 09-01-2010, 09:16 PM
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TC Encore is one of the best choices for a relatively cost effective take down.

.22LR
30.06
20 gauge

This is one of many great 3 barrel combos

You can use Talley Scope rings for quick disconnect.
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Old 09-02-2010, 06:25 AM
gondwana gondwana is offline
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Wow thank you all, information a plenty, thanks!!!! :-)

Half the reason for the take down idea is to have companion guns, a take down rifle and a pistol, both can be carried in a back pack or on a motorbike, both sharing the same ammo.

I'd be leaning towards .357M and also was thinking a 308 with Axiom stock would be a good thing to have, but think a nice light, well priced bolt action 243 would be more than enough...Of course one of eberything would be ok but still waiting for the lottery people to hurry up & ring (Guess that'd be sooner if I ever bought tickets hahaha)

I have shotguns, .22 but no companion guns, no bigger guns, think you all have been very helpful and gotten me closer to smarter decision.

Apppreciate it greatly
Cheers
pete
Old 09-02-2010, 07:13 PM
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A couple cheaper alternatives: NEF Handi Rifle, Rossi Trifecta. The handi has to have each barrel fit to the action. The Rossi comes with 3 barrels for around $200, but is tiny and light.

Personally, I prefer the TC Contender with a 16" barrel for the application you mention, specifically in 223 REM with chamber adapters in .22LR, and .22WMR. The Contender is unique in that it has two firing pins, you select rimfire or centerfire so I can fire a .223, extract the case, load a .22 in a chamber adapter, turn the switch, and fire rimfire. 1/2 MOA shooter with good ammo. Broken down, less than 20". No need to refit each barrel to the action. 5 1/2 pound Rifle. Limited by Chamber Pressure so not as many of the high power calibers as the Encore, but much handier on the lower pressure rounds, including BP in 209x45 and 209x50.
Old 09-02-2010, 07:53 PM
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I like the TC Contender and Encore due to the flexability as pistols and calibers they are have available. The NEF/H&R's have given me good service as well. Putting a rubber O ring between the barrel and the fore arm around the lug helps with accuracy or you can glass bed the forearm (and buttstock if its loose.)
I think a decent scope is a good idea, but reloading can make a big difference also.
Old 09-02-2010, 08:01 PM
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if i had to do take down thats how id go

Old 09-03-2010, 02:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Optimist View Post
It's nice to find somebody else who likes Jim West's CoPilot carbine.
It's not his. Andy Hawk was a gunsmith for WWG back in the 90's. He concieved and built the first several guns. Andy quit (he was making $9 hr.) to open his own and Jim threatened to sue if he ever built one or tried to use the name. Andy just shrugged it off but Jim has been pocketing $ off him for 15 years. Others also built similar rifles on a custom basis.
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Old 09-03-2010, 03:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vicdotcom View Post
Marlin 39A. Takedown capable and dead nuts accurate.
Very fun and cheap to shoot as well.
Old 09-03-2010, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKpredator View Post
It's not his. Andy Hawk was a gunsmith for WWG back in the 90's. He concieved and built the first several guns. Andy quit (he was making $9 hr.) to open his own and Jim threatened to sue if he ever built one or tried to use the name. Andy just shrugged it off but Jim has been pocketing $ off him for 15 years. Others also built similar rifles on a custom basis.
Did he design it while an employee of of Jim West? If so it belongs to Jim.

Did either of them take out a patent on the design? Then anybody and their brother can exactly duplicate the gun and to their hearts' content!

If a patent had been taken out then whomever pays them royalties can make them under license just as Springfield paid Mauser for the M1903A1 and if not licenced then they can be sued just as Mauser did to Springfield for the WW1 years.

The way I heard it was that Andy just used the same takedown system that Winchester used in their Model 1895 (patent had run out years before)which he now specializes in and two of my partners have his guns in .375 Scovill-Hawk and .411 Hawk
Old 09-04-2010, 01:45 AM
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Quote:
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Did he design it while an employee of of Jim West? If so it belongs to Jim.

Did either of them take out a patent on the design? Then anybody and their brother can exactly duplicate the gun and to their hearts' content!

If a patent had been taken out then whomever pays them royalties can make them under license just as Springfield paid Mauser for the M1903A1 and if not licenced then they can be sued just as Mauser did to Springfield for the WW1 years.

The way I heard it was that Andy just used the same takedown system that Winchester used in their Model 1895 (patent had run out years before)which he now specializes in and two of my partners have his guns in .375 Scovill-Hawk and .411 Hawk
Pretty much the size of it. I have seen several 1894's done up for pilots 30 years ago by several other notables in the states. I recognized engraving from Dave Miller on one.

Haven't seen those calibers yet. I like lever guns but I went to the 376 Steyr in 2002 and I haven't been interested in much else for anything serious and sold my other hunting guns. I understand WWG was looking at making their own actions specifically for 460 and 500 S&W. That was a while ago and haven't heard anymore recently. I suspect they are too hot for a lever gun.
Old 09-04-2010, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
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Pretty much the size of it. I have seen several 1894's done up for pilots 30 years ago by several other notables in the states. I recognized engraving from Dave Miller on one.

Haven't seen those calibers yet. I like lever guns but I went to the 376 Steyr in 2002 and I haven't been interested in much else for anything serious and sold my other hunting guns. I understand WWG was looking at making their own actions specifically for 460 and 500 S&W. That was a while ago and haven't heard anymore recently. I suspect they are too hot for a lever gun.
I've heard and read that the .376 is a great light heavy cartridge and is being used lots in Africa (what it was specifically designed for—just beats the .375 minimum) by European hunters with great success...Seen some very good reviews on it IIRC in the Steyr Pro Hunter and/or African models with the longer barrels...There have been a few .376 Steyr to the lodge and all killed cleanly and quickly with first shot placement--one moose was almost about to get a second bullet after five minutes of chewing its food but then he decided that he was dead and just dropped on the spot...You'll have no trouble stopping anything here with it in a single shot, well maybe a semi truck might take a second…I've got the .358 Win lever for my heavy, mid weight gun and the .375 H&H or .416 Hoffman (partner’s) or Rigby bolt for the light heavy.

After a very consuming passion, primarily break action--falling block, Farquharson, etc rifles (single shot, doubles and dreillings/vierlings) I love lever action guns; (except in pistol calibres--unless being used for SASS CAS stuff) and especially favour the Savage Model 99 , Browning BLR, Winchester Model 88 (.264 Win) & Model 1895 (.30/40 Krag)...The only handgun calibres that I have are .22 LR target and .41 Rem Mag revolvers so I have the Browning BL22 and a Marlin 39A TD and the 1895G in those calibres and Browning Model 1871 in .348 Win and a Browning Model 1892 in .44 Rem mag reside in the cook shack all season long ...What's nice is that all of them come in factory takedown (TD) models.

Lever rifle and cartridges Info Sites:
Paco Kelly's Leverguns
Lever Action Shooting Society

Z-Hawk Guns site on the Scoville and Hawk cartridges and their converted Winchester 1895 rifles...My partners love theirs and carry them daily against polar bears which we've never had a necessity to kill.

Big Horn Armory is making a .500 S&W lever gun...It's still a pistol cartridge, albeit a horking big one, so your still limited to closer shots but devastating closer shots...One of the other partners is looking to buy one but is reluctant as my BLR in .358 Win and his in .450 Marlin are working out fine

Brockman's has the same stuff that
Wild West Guns has and so does
Grizzly Custom and
Nonneman and Brian Cosby--down...
Gary Reeder Custom Guns has some beautiful models--16" Bad Medicine in .50 Alaskan etc. and for even more High end--exhibition grade guns there is Doug Turnbull Restorations -- check his .470 and .475 Turnbull took it to Africa for a Cape Buffalo hunt.
Kilimanjaro Rifle -- Super high end guns


Gary Reeder Bad Medicine .465 GNR vs. Ruger 10/22 .22 LR
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