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Old 07-11-2010, 03:29 PM
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Default Tunneling into a mountain or hard rock.



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How hard is it to tunnel into a mountain or somthing that is hard rock like a mountain in regards to making a bunker within such material?

Last edited by Doom; 07-11-2010 at 03:30 PM.. Reason: Forgot Somthing
Old 07-11-2010, 03:43 PM
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I've given the 2012 thing a fair bit of thought and truly: find a cave.

it's all I can think of. You'll have to do so much work anyway, you need air shafts, you need a way of getting power, say pvu sitting on top - there's so much yoou will have to do already, just find a pothole.

go potholing, an find a cavern with running water and set up shop there, if you can buy it. If you can't buy it I suspect all the spelunkers in town know about it and may well show up there come shtf as well.

just my tuppence worth.

Getting into solid rock involves dynamiting and honestly, it's not for the novice.
Old 07-11-2010, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bridgierapa View Post
I've given the 2012 thing a fair bit of thought and truly: find a cave.

it's all I can think of. You'll have to do so much work anyway, you need air shafts, you need a way of getting power, say pvu sitting on top - there's so much yoou will have to do already, just find a pothole.

go potholing, an find a cavern with running water and set up shop there, if you can buy it. If you can't buy it I suspect all the spelunkers in town know about it and may well show up there come shtf as well.

just my tuppence worth.

Getting into solid rock involves dynamiting and honestly, it's not for the novice.
I'm not worried about 2012. Not sure if I ought to be given all chatter over the subject.

Quote:
truly: find a cave.

it's all I can think of. You'll have to do so much work anyway, you need air shafts, you need a way of getting power, say pvu sitting on top - there's so much yoou will have to do already, just find a pothole.

go potholing, an find a cavern with running water and set up shop there, if you can buy it. If you can't buy it I suspect all the spelunkers in town know about it and may well show up there come shtf as well.

just my tuppence worth.
Are caves generally common in every mountain or form of solid granite hard rock?

I don't plan on buying any land. I just plan on finding some land and hiding out.

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Getting into solid rock involves dynamiting and honestly, it's not for the novice.
Are there any ways of drilling or axe picking?
Old 07-11-2010, 04:09 PM
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I guess I have too much imagination... but I imagine you trying to tunnel alone, so I don't see any large machinery involved.

As such, it would take 20 years to dig a tunnel.

Truly: find a fissure, or a gap, or a tunnel, or a cave that already exists. I know certain areas of New Zealand are riddled with them and I'm sure whatever country you're from, provided it's not greenland or something, will have them too.

Work with the work Nature's already done. Otherwise it's just a mammoth undertaking.

Unless you were just going to dig a tunnel under your house into the soil... in which case, yeah you can dig - and frame as you go.
Old 07-12-2010, 10:36 AM
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During medieval times they tunneled using picks, but it was back breaking work done almost exclusively by slaves or peasants (virtual slaves). When explosives came around they used that and workers would clear debris by hand. When machines came around they used them to help clear debris.

If you did the tunneling by yourself without machines you would likely destroy your joints and back in the process.
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Old 07-12-2010, 10:51 AM
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It really depends on the material your trying to dig into.Granite is very hard and will require explosives or some very expensive equipment.Limestone is much easier but the danger of "flaking off" where pieces tend to fall off over time may require shoring of the roof.
As an avid caver in my youth I agree with the other members, find an existing cave or shelter.
Old 07-12-2010, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doom View Post
How hard is it to tunnel into a mountain or somthing that is hard rock like a mountain in regards to making a bunker within such material?

The only semi safe tunnels are either natural caves or those cut out of hard rock.

With hand tools it would take you years to cut maybe 50 yards into a rock....

The only logical way is to blast your way. This requires permits, rock drills, and a supply of high explosives.
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Old 07-12-2010, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
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I guess I have too much imagination... but I imagine you trying to tunnel alone, so I don't see any large machinery involved.

As such, it would take 20 years to dig a tunnel.

Truly: find a fissure, or a gap, or a tunnel, or a cave that already exists. I know certain areas of New Zealand are riddled with them and I'm sure whatever country you're from, provided it's not greenland or something, will have them too.

Work with the work Nature's already done. Otherwise it's just a mammoth undertaking.

Unless you were just going to dig a tunnel under your house into the soil... in which case, yeah you can dig - and frame as you go.
I think your right. I suppose my next question is how to identify potential caves and naturally made caverns or tunnels.

How do you discover them?

( When I do, how do I determine they are safe?)

Naturally I want to find some unidentified ones if I want a concealed place of my own.
Old 07-12-2010, 10:25 PM
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Naturally I want to find some unidentified ones if I want a concealed place of my own.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...s_of_Wisconsin

Most of them are in the western and southwestern part of the state it seems.

Natural caves are almost always very solid. The biggest worry for me at least would be whatever else was living in the cave I was in.

I have been in several old mine tunnels in NC and the first time you look up at a ceiling crawling with bats it will scare the **** out of you.
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Old 07-13-2010, 06:48 PM
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I've done a bit of blasting in my younger days. the blasting part is easy. It's the drilling part that is tough. You can blast with common easy to get supplies making your own caps if you have to. I bought 100 caps for $110 and 50# of Detagel for $45 but that was 20+ years ago. I don't know if they will still sell it to just a common land owner.
Old 07-13-2010, 07:26 PM
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Look into getting a bobcat. You can use it to scoop out your material. You may be able to get an attachment like a hammer drill which can be used to drill into the rock/dirt that is too hard to break through with a scoop. Once you have a grid-work of holes drilled out you can probably use a hydraulic expander to break off each row of rock.

You should be able to reach at least 8' high with the bobcat.

I would think this would be the only real viable way to tunnel by yourself through rock.

You could also get a permit for blasting and use the bobcat for drilling the holes and clearing the rubble. This would be the fastest way to do it.

Good luck doing this if you are not interested in buying property.
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Old 07-14-2010, 01:29 AM
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I like the idea of attaching a rock drill to the front end of a Bobcat and then mucking it out with the bucket. A lot easier on the back. A simpler explosive: ammonium nitrate (fertilizer) and diesel fuel.
Old 07-14-2010, 01:49 AM
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Probably be better off building a bunker in your backyard, stocked and ready. Renting the machinery to do it would be a lot easier than digging a hole in a mountain or hillside.
Old 07-14-2010, 07:44 AM
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How hard is it to tunnel into a mountain or somthing that is hard rock like a mountain in regards to making a bunker within such material?
It is very hard.
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Old 07-14-2010, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Doom View Post
I'm not worried about 2012. Not sure if I ought to be given all chatter over the subject.



Are caves generally common in every mountain or form of solid granite hard rock?

I don't plan on buying any land. I just plan on finding some land and hiding out.



Are there any ways of drilling or axe picking?
Well it really just takes a lot of hard work. A roman architect once tunneled straight through a mountain in order to bring an aqua duct into the city. Get yourself a good pick axe, shovels, sledge hammer, etc… and just pick away at it. One technique used by the ancients is to build enormous fires to heat the rock, then immediately dump cold water onto the hot ledge. This will cause it to crack and allow you to break it up easier. This method was used by the roman army to cut pathways through mountains.
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Old 07-14-2010, 07:57 AM
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I like the idea of attaching a rock drill to the front end of a Bobcat and then mucking it out with the bucket. A lot easier on the back. A simpler explosive: ammonium nitrate (fertilizer) and diesel fuel.
Isn't it illegal to make explosives? and why fool around with ammonium nitrate anyway when you can buy a pound of black powder at walmart?
Old 07-14-2010, 04:39 PM
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I like the idea of attaching a rock drill to the front end of a Bobcat and then mucking it out with the bucket. A lot easier on the back. A simpler explosive: ammonium nitrate (fertilizer) and diesel fuel.
It takes an explosion to set ANFO off.
Old 07-17-2010, 07:46 AM
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The thing to know and understand about hard surfaces be in concrete or rock, you can not attack large surfaces. You have to break up the large serface into small planes from which you can flake off bigger chuncks.

With contrete, you can tunnel underneith and then srike the surface over the void. contrete will crack every time.

On a rock face, you can use a cordless drill (solar charger) and masoniary bit to create a triangle patter in the rock. you can then use a tappered steel dowl rod to fracture the drilled hole. Once you have a cavity about a foot deep and about a foot wide (triangle shape) you can then drill around the edge of the cavity and then huge chuncks will flake off toward the cavity when you use the tappered dowl.

It is hard work, but once you learn how to read the rock and apply pressure you will be surprised how fast it will go.

Most people will just start pounding away on the flat surface of a wall and waste all their time and energy

They are then convencied that it can not be down.

small steady is the answer and reading the rock and applying pressure to do the most good.

later
wayne
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Old 07-17-2010, 10:06 PM
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Use a Bobcat with the jack hammer attachment or the highexplosives

How ever if you want to use the explosives your goingto need premits and a license the licenses arnt cheap unless you can find a job with an explosives company

Thats where I had gotten mine however telling your boss you want to by some explosives from him is a sure way to get you fired or make you question the legality of the place you work for if he says ok

your still going to want to shore up any tunnel you make because in the wild a cave that cant support it self dosent exist caves stand like they do because they were eaten out of hard rock but they still have caveins from time to time

your also going to have to worry about hitting gas pockets and blowing your self to hell and gone or be discoverd by some hikers some day in the futer (they will think your bones are cool )

on the plus side though depending on where you live diging into the side of a mountin could make you very wealthy wether it be gold silver or jewels only bad part about that is though if it isnt your own land or you dont have mineral rights you may endup in a cave with Iron bars and make license plates in your spare time
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Old 07-17-2010, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dustinfox View Post
Well it really just takes a lot of hard work. A roman architect once tunneled straight through a mountain in order to bring an aqua duct into the city. Get yourself a good pick axe, shovels, sledge hammer, etc… and just pick away at it. One technique used by the ancients is to build enormous fires to heat the rock, then immediately dump cold water onto the hot ledge. This will cause it to crack and allow you to break it up easier. This method was used by the roman army to cut pathways through mountains.
A variation of this was used by Hannibal in is campaign against Rome. He came to a pass of ahr rock his elephants could not pass through and if they stayed over night the elephants would die. He did the fires and poured barrels of vinegar on them. It not only broke up the rock it softened it too. They made it through the pass quickly (of course they had elephants to haul away the rock...LOL)
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