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Old 07-07-2010, 10:28 PM
forrestdweller forrestdweller is offline
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Default 7.62x39 vs 7.62x51



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Comparing on a defensive senerio ranges under 199 yards. Ballistically the 7.62x51 has more effective range and velosity than the 7.62x39 2800 fps vs 2300 fps 150 gr bullet vs 123 gr
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x51mm_NATO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x39mm
Yes there are variations of cartridges but to have a realistic comparison standard military loads.
Realistically within defensive ranges both are effective and will do the job.
The defensive edge probably would go to to the 7.62x39 because of the firearms available. Again for comparison a standard SAR-1 vs FN-Fal.
The SAR-1 is a shorter carbine compared to the FN-Fal rifle. The standard magazine for the SAR-1 is 30 rounds. The FN-Fal is 20 rounds. In close quarters it will be over before a mag swap is needed. There are some reliable military grade 40 round mags usable in the SAR-1 available. My group has some just for defensive situations. Most of our 7.62x39 ak mags are 30 rounders with a few 20 rounders if a more prone shooting position is needed.
We went with 30 rounders because they are the most practical length and 40 & 20 rounders sell at a premium more mags for same amount of money.
There are some 30 round mags available for the FN-Fal but they are after market and sell at a premium.
Personally I would rather have the extra ammo capacity before needing a mag swap of the SAR-1 over the FN-Fal if the aggressor muntants were coming over the fence. There is no practical ballistic advantage for the 7.62x51 over the 7.62x39 at defensive ranges. Another view is the cost of fielding a SAR-1 defender vs a FN-Fal is the SAR-1 is nearly 1/3 the cost of a FN-Fal. Magazines about 1/2 to 2/3's the cost. 7.62x39 ammo 1/2 to 2/3's the cost. A group or family could outfit 3 defenders with 7.62x39 SAR-1's vs one FN-Fal defender.
http://www.ak-47.us/SAR-1.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_FAL
Old 07-07-2010, 10:50 PM
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There are also 75 round Drum mags for the AK that are very reliable and not to terribly expensive
Old 07-08-2010, 01:33 PM
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Not another VS thread.
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Old 07-08-2010, 01:44 PM
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Why do people think that all shooting will be done in less than 200 yards????? Seriously, go walk off 200 yards and realize how close that is.

http://www.dsarms.com/SA58-FAL-Carbi...info/SA58CP16/

That's 28 inches with stock folded, with a 22 inch sight radius. If you dont know what that means.......well.......

"......... In close quarters it will be over before a mag swap is needed........" Says who?
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Old 07-08-2010, 01:48 PM
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Here's my thought process..... 223 might do the job if I hit a vital organ, 7.62x39 could do the job if they are close enough for the rifles accuracy to hit, but .308 WILL do the job as far as I can see.

"...........1/3 the cost of a FAL....." How much is your life worth?
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Old 07-08-2010, 01:54 PM
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Projected responses from an agressor when he discovers what weaponry you have.

Ar-15 = "Cool gun"
AK47 = "Dang communist gang-banger"
M1A = "OH CRAP!"
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Old 07-08-2010, 02:18 PM
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A gun is a tool. You need or want the right tool to do the right job. An M-1A is a great rifle. No doubt about it. Trouble is that the M-1A is also heavy to carry about in hot, humid weather. An AK is a decent, reliable rifle that keeps on running and running when others conk out on you. Trouble is the AKs don't have great distance. So where the deciding factors come into play is: What kind of terrain will you be operating in and at what distances will you reasonably expect to engage targets? If you need to shoot over two city blocks, go with an M-1A. If you're going to be moving around and can get fairly close to your potential target then use the AK type rifles. Both of the rifles have really good punch so that almost becomes a moot point as far as that is concerned. I have carried and used both in tactical situations. For general purpose survival, I would take an AK with a sling, folding stock and a Texas dogleg mounted on it. On top of the rifle and dogleg I would put a Mepro rifle dot sight system with a 6 MOA dot on it or a Trijicon amber dot sight for high speed confrontations. Since I know what my AK won't do, that means I have to adopt my tactics to make my rifle work for me. In other words, since the AK has about a 300 meter practical shooting distance, that means I pretty much have to sneak up to within 2 blocks or so of my potential targets. That I can easily do with a little forethought and practice.
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Old 07-08-2010, 03:38 PM
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what's a texas dogleg?
Old 07-08-2010, 04:05 PM
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Someone must be trying for most posts of the month
199 yards is about 10 acres of area to defend. Note I said defend. Unlikely it will be one on one. In WW1&2 most "sniper kills were within 200 yards as were most small arms casualties. One Finnish sniper was credited with over 200 kills using a Suomi M-31 9x19.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4
I was trying to give some baseline to compare the 7.62x39 and 7.62x51 on being they are such different performing cartridges.
In the OP I put as a baseline comparable models. I could have specified folding stock models on both firearms but that would not be comparable doing a folding stack to fixed stock as one poster did.
Many times someone will post vs but put no standards or baselines to do a comparison to. This leads to all the variations and exceptions to so in the end no conclusive answer can be reached. Like one post where someone responded "duuuh flashhidder" the firearm in question is not sold with a flashhidder. Stock issue that firearm had a problem with excessive muzzle flash.
What is a life worth? Question is what is my family's lives worth?
Three defenders by conventional military thought should able to hold off 12 or so aggressors. Sure one or two of you may be super super snipers but if you are that prepared and good why bother my ranshakle retreat with my doomsday poisoned pill supplies?
I apologize for trying to do an apples to apples. Next time I will do plum to watermelon
Old 07-08-2010, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
what's a texas dogleg?
A techacool phallic symbol device for black guns.
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Old 07-08-2010, 04:10 PM
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Well lets look at it this way. There are a lot more AK parts out there than FAL parts because of its world wide usage. However the FAL is inherently more accurate than an AK and can take shots accurately passed 300 yards unlike the capabilities of the AK.
Old 07-08-2010, 04:24 PM
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Even Kmart has .308 ammo
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Old 07-08-2010, 04:31 PM
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I understand that your original post was about "medium range, bang for the buck". And if you are comparing dollar for dollar, the ak is a sturdy and can serve one well. But in THIS forum (survival) I will allways opt in favor of more power, capability, or self-sufficiency.

In a group scenario, sure not all rifles may have to be full power .308's. But in my world, I am the only active rifle shooter(most likely), so intemediate calibers are not an option in a battle rifle.
Old 07-08-2010, 05:05 PM
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I can walk into just about any hardware or even a grocery store in a hunting area in the Northern USA or Canada and be able to find 7.62x51mm/.308 Win shells--maybe not my preferred brand or loading and expensive but available.

I can also find 7.62x63mm/.30/06 Springfield and 7.62x51Rmm/.30/30 Win and in Canada the 7.7x57Rmm/.303 British.

I can not do that with 7.62x39mm.

I can get the 7.62x51mm in the AR family and variants, the M1A/M14 family and variants, the FN-FAL and variants (HK91/G3), the Galil, in single shot, in pump action, lever action and bolt action models.

I can not do that with 7.62x39mm.

I am limited to the SKS and AK family and variants (VEPR etc), the Ruger Mini 30 Ranch and one bolt action the CZ.

I am good to 800M with the 7.62x51mm and have sufficient killing power to that range and beyond.

I can not do that with 7.62x39mm.

The difference between a 20 and 30 round mag is a >1 second reload but with a more reliable feed and far easier to load--less spring pressure.

For handling the FN is available in a paratrooper version and the M14 in the SOCOM carbine and granted not to the size of the AK but not bigger by that much...The only difference it will make is if you are going to be doing room clearing and if that is the case you've lost if they are in your buildings already.
Old 07-08-2010, 05:13 PM
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I'd like an example of a NEED to shoot more than 300 yards.

What type of optics you plan on using to see that far and determine that your target is actually a threat? Are you going to just be taking pot shots at everyone giving away your position?


As to the original question, the 7.62 x 51 is a more accurate round by design. The rifles chambered for it will be longer and heavier than your average 7.62 x 39 but will give you greater range if you can do your part. Try walking out 200 yards with your rifle, tacking up a man sized target and then sprinting back "to get your heart rate up enough to simulate battle stress" and shooting at the target free handed. In those conditions I doubt you'll see that big a difference in accuracy. I mean in fantasy land I'm sure the baddies will be kind enough to approach in a straight line right towards your shooting bench, but in the real world even a white tail deer isn't that polite.
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Old 07-08-2010, 05:28 PM
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In my group we are set up on a team system one with a full power military service rifle ex M1 Garand and a military style detachable box carbine ex SAR-1. Being in hills and woods of Georgia a 400 yd shoot is about max around the farm most would be shorter. I stockpiled reloading components and managed an adequate supply of loaded ammo before the price increases. Not dependent on scrounging or Wallyworld for ammo. Can cast for pistol bullets and 30 cal rifle. When I take a walk I collect wheel weights. Have over time collected some poundage. Have the molds and dies.
Have competed in 1000 meter Military Service competitions and placed. Even used a SVT-40 on a couple of ocassions beating out some fancy rig M1A1's.
I do own a West German Mfg HK-91 fully rigged out and a Rock River CAR-15 with all the Barbie stuff.
Can I play with the "Black Gun" crowd?
Old 07-08-2010, 07:27 PM
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Yo Dawg, I gotcha covered.



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Old 07-08-2010, 08:09 PM
forrestdweller forrestdweller is offline
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No garage door opener?
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Old 07-08-2010, 08:16 PM
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LOL nope, decided to trim off a little weight so I skipped the garage door opener. :-)

I'll have my partner open it, I'll cover him.



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Old 07-08-2010, 08:34 PM
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I would like to hear about when a 300+ yard shot would be anything other than murder except for in full blown war or elaborate SHTF fantasies....

...wait
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