Survivalist Forum

Advertise Here

Go Back   Survivalist Forum > Survival & Preparedness Forum > Disaster Preparedness General Discussion
Articles Chat Room Classifieds Donations Gallery Groups Links Store Survival Files



Disaster Preparedness General Discussion Anything Disaster Preparedness or Survival Related

Advertise Here
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-23-2008, 03:20 AM
Enter_Narne's Avatar
Enter_Narne Enter_Narne is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 136
Thanks: 8
Thanked 152 Times in 37 Posts
Default Government Seizes Mormon Food Supplies. Charges Them with Hording?



Advertise Here

Members of the Church of Latter Day Saints aka Mormons store enough food to feed their families for a year. It's part of their religion. In a disaster or other emergency situation, can the government seize that food and charge them with hording?
Old 04-23-2008, 03:22 AM
adam731432 adam731432 is offline
Hiker
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 723
Thanks: 0
Thanked 216 Times in 140 Posts
Default

The Gov. is not supposed to make any laws concerning churches, but then again they do what they want.
The Following User Says Thank You to adam731432 For This Useful Post:
Old 04-23-2008, 06:13 AM
dirtdigger dirtdigger is offline
Gold memba-золотой член
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 504
Thanks: 97
Thanked 277 Times in 178 Posts
Default

What do you mean by "not supposed to make any laws concerning churches"?

In a way they can even determine the contents of their Sunday sermons. If a church has a tax-exempt status it, for example, cannot endorse any political candidates and dive into politics in general during formal meetings.

As far as food supplies, I *think* there are a couple of nuisances here. If it belongs to a church and is stored in a structure owned by a church, it falls into one category and if it is individual member's supplies and are stored at their house, it is regulated by local, state or federal law applicable to everybody else. It was mentioned on the board that there was something in the Patriot Act regarding food stockpiling by individuals. If that ever starts to be implimented then the fact that you either belong to a church or don't probably won't make much difference.
The Following User Says Thank You to dirtdigger For This Useful Post:
Old 04-23-2008, 06:21 AM
adam731432 adam731432 is offline
Hiker
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 723
Thanks: 0
Thanked 216 Times in 140 Posts
Default

Its in this thing called the CONSTITUTION

"Separation of church and state" is the political and legal concept that government and religion should be separate, and not interfere in each other's affairs.

In the United States, separation of church and state is often identified with the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…"

I think churches being tax free goes against this as there shall be NO NO NO law specified to a religion establishment. Yes they make laws on top of laws on top of laws but thats another story.
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to adam731432 For This Useful Post:
Old 04-23-2008, 06:30 AM
dilligaf2u2 dilligaf2u2 is offline
Prepared
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: NW New Mexico
Age: 61
Posts: 323
Thanks: 0
Thanked 320 Times in 110 Posts
Default

My Dear wife and her mother are Mormon. I am what Mom calls a jack Mormon. Jack Mormon = dose not agree with all their teachings but follows their faith.

I have a 1/2 years supply of food for TDW and myself. I have asked other members of the LDS church what would they do? Defend their stocks or stand back and let the Gov take it. The reply I always get is. I would stand back and watch. It would be wrong to fight or take a life if it comes to the food stocks being taken.

Myself! The first 3 guys will be laying on the steps as a warning and deterent to others. The next 4 will be blown to bits. The other 45 will make it so I do not need my stocks. My stocks will be evenly distributed over the area, right after the loud bang. The following fire will not help those comming for my stocks.

Frankly I do not see the Gov comming after my meger supply of rice and cracked wheat. I see some of my nieghbors comming here in a group and demanding I share it with them. They also know how I feel about this and would think thrice before trying.

Don
The Following 14 Users Say Thank You to dilligaf2u2 For This Useful Post:
Old 04-23-2008, 07:09 AM
Wildernessguy1 Wildernessguy1 is offline
Young Adult
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Age: 21
Posts: 394
Thanks: 281
Thanked 121 Times in 88 Posts
Default

they took there food supplies, so the government could actually take my food and supplies and charge me for that ITS MY PROPERTY AND NO ONE IS TAKIN THAT AWAY ITS MY RIGHT TO HAVE IT

Last edited by Wildernessguy1; 04-23-2008 at 08:25 PM..
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Wildernessguy1 For This Useful Post:
Old 04-23-2008, 07:11 AM
dirtdigger dirtdigger is offline
Gold memba-золотой член
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 504
Thanks: 97
Thanked 277 Times in 178 Posts
Default

[QUOTE=adam731432;111086]Its in this thing called the CONSTITUTION

"Separation of church and state" is the political and legal concept that government and religion should be separate, and not interfere in each other's affairs.

Damn, I absolutely forgot about that and feel like a dumb ass. I guess it just shows, at least in my case, that somewhere on the subconcious level I (others may too) feel that they already have a way to get us regardless
The Following User Says Thank You to dirtdigger For This Useful Post:
Old 04-23-2008, 07:22 AM
adam731432 adam731432 is offline
Hiker
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 723
Thanks: 0
Thanked 216 Times in 140 Posts
Default

I understand. Its basically gone. Like bush said " Its just a G. D. piece of paper."
Old 04-23-2008, 07:57 AM
scarcherpilot scarcherpilot is offline
Sic Semper Tyrannis
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Georgia
Age: 40
Posts: 772
Thanks: 138
Thanked 544 Times in 201 Posts
Default

Perhaps I am just confused, but from the header of this thread it sounded like the gov't actually took someones food, but then I read the thread and it sounds more like a question.

Did something happen that I missed or is this really just a question?

Last edited by scarcherpilot; 04-23-2008 at 09:51 AM..
The Following 15 Users Say Thank You to scarcherpilot For This Useful Post:
Old 04-23-2008, 08:12 AM
Zorba Zorba is offline
This is a great survival forum
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 1,032
Thanks: 1
Thanked 330 Times in 206 Posts
Default

The government or its agents cannot seize legal private property without legal cause (usually a crime is committed or some law broken.) The government could not seize the hoard of non-polygamous mormons but it might be able to take the hoards of polygamous mormons since polygamy is illegal (and in my opinion a sign of insanity... any man who has more than one wife needs his head examined.)
Old 04-23-2008, 08:42 AM
yonder's Avatar
yonder yonder is offline
Local BAMF
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 807
Thanks: 134
Thanked 632 Times in 314 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by adam731432 View Post
Its in this thing called the CONSTITUTION
Along with a lot of other things that the federal government conveniently ignores.
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to yonder For This Useful Post:
Old 04-23-2008, 11:55 AM
Kid_Molasses's Avatar
Kid_Molasses Kid_Molasses is offline
Target Shooter
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 426
Thanks: 64
Thanked 163 Times in 109 Posts
Default

every time i hear someone pose a question like this i think, well, OF COURSE NOT, they shouldnt be able to do that...

but the key word here is "shouldnt"

there are a couple more things that i think about when these kinds of questions are asked:
-internment of japanese CITIZENS during WWII
-gun confiscation during katrina

while these two are VERY different in nature and scope i believe they illustrate perfectly how the government can do things during "emergencies" in the name of/pursuant to "national security" that they would otherwise not be able to do. even though these were eventually stopped and some attempt at reparation was made (severely pitiful in both cases i might add) whats to say such changes would not be made for very long periods of time or even made permanent or institutionalized.

i guess my point is: i never say never

my .02
Kid_M
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Kid_Molasses For This Useful Post:
Old 04-23-2008, 01:13 PM
Wulf23's Avatar
Wulf23 Wulf23 is offline
John Has a Long Moustache
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Conroe, Texas
Posts: 1,190
Thanks: 683
Thanked 787 Times in 377 Posts
Default

My .02 here...

During the Clinton administration I used to get a newspaper from Gunsite, Not sure how I wound up on their mailing list but it was always chock full of good stuff. I do recall one article that was written about "executive orders." One of the most egregious orders was one authorizing the confiscation of private stockpiles of food and water by FEMA for re distribution during times of emergency. The order made no mention any compensation for those who had their property given to the people who refused to fend for themselves. So in answer to the question posed ...yes if the govt.knows you have a bunch of preps laying around you can expect a friendly knock on your door in case of emergency.

This executive order came out around the same time as Brady bill 2 was being discussed. As an aside let me add that should Obama or Hillary win you can expect Brady 2 to raise it's foul unconstitutional head again. For those who don't remember some of Brady 2's ideas were...Any group of three or more people with firearms can be considered a terrorist threat, meaning you'd have to reserve time at the firing range much like you do at a golf course. IF you owned more that three firearms you would be considered an arsenal by the BATF. You'd have to keep the firearms in an approved storage device and they were subject to inspection at any time from your friendly feds.Etc...etc...
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Wulf23 For This Useful Post:
Old 04-23-2008, 01:53 PM
wvsurvivalist wvsurvivalist is offline
Target Shooter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 461
Thanks: 234
Thanked 382 Times in 181 Posts
Default

If you had asked this type of question 10 years ago, I would have laughed right in your face. Since Bush and crew have taken power, nothing surprises me anymore. Bush seems to conveniently ignore parts of the constitution(or as he refers to it a G** D*** piece of paper) that he doesn't like. As as been mentioned previously in this thread, they were able to confiscate legal guns in New Orleans and force Japanese Americans into internment camps.

Don't forget as well that the government outlawed the hoarding of gold during the great depression.
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/in...14611&st=&st1=

I don't think it's in the Patriot Act, but it wouldn't surprise me if they find a way whether legal or not to confiscate your stockpile of food/water/guns/etc if there was an emergency.

I'll be honest, it wouldn't surprise me if they already of lists of people who have bought stuff from online sellers of emergency products. For example, to buy larger quantities of long term supplies, I use one particular online dealer based out of Utah. I'm sure they have agreements with the credit card companies to look through those records just like they have with the phone companies. They may not know what I've bought, but they could say well Joe Smith has spent x dollars at Survivalists R Us and therefore he's likely to have a stockpile and agents from some federal agency should pay him a visit if there is a national emergency.
The Following User Says Thank You to wvsurvivalist For This Useful Post:
Old 04-23-2008, 04:01 PM
mongoose's Avatar
mongoose mongoose is offline
Watchin tha world go by
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: on a workin vacation
Posts: 8,152
Thanks: 6,173
Thanked 8,825 Times in 3,566 Posts
Default

please post a link of the seizures from compound.

i seem to remember something about a 4th amendment,seems like some lawyer is gonna have a field day ifn this it true
Old 04-23-2008, 04:49 PM
Wulf23's Avatar
Wulf23 Wulf23 is offline
John Has a Long Moustache
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Conroe, Texas
Posts: 1,190
Thanks: 683
Thanked 787 Times in 377 Posts
Default

Here is an article on the Executive order I mentioned :

The Executive Order Above All Executive Orders
by Paula Demers
On June 5, 1994, Clinton signed EO 12919 which gives the president executive (dictatorial) control over, well, everyting. Once you understand that there is nothing which is being done on Capitol Hill for the benefit of the American people, you begin to understand that everything is being done to the detriment of the American people. Once all of the detrimental things which are being done to the American people from Capitol Hill reach critical mass, EO 12919 gives the president the powers of absolute rule.
According to the United States Constitution, Article 1, only Congress shall make federal law. However, since the "War and Emergency Powers Act" of 1933, every president has usurped lawmaking powers. Their "laws" are called Executive Orders (EOs). These EOs, not our Constitution, are what is governing America today. The "War and Emergency Powers Act" enables that the president to declare a national emergency, and thereby become a dictator. Presidents can also carefully choose their words and declare a "war" on anything, in order to give them dictatorial control. For example, the "War on Drugs" makes it possible to use federal authorities, such as FBI, FEMA, BATF, and the military against American citizens. A well-known example is Waco. Another example is Hurricane Opal.
After Florida was declared a nation emergency, the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) arrived on the scene and residents were placed under marshal law (restricted to the point of not going outside their door). When the federal government does this, it is going against the Constitution.
The "War and Emergency Powers Act" is an unconstitutional act on the part of our government, created so that presidents can bypass Congress, and do whatever they choose. It also makes it possible to do away with posse comitatus in cases of "emergency." Posse comitatus is what protects American citizens from the military being used against them. In Germany, the military was used against the German citizens. The German government also had its Gestapo to enforce the dictates of Hitler. Now, in an American "emergency," the military can be used against American citizens and the federal government has its own Gestapo in the form of the BATF, FBI, and FEMA.
These EOs have not been widely publicized. If they were, 250 million Americans would not tolerate it. But you can get copies of them. They are all printed in the U.S. Federal Register and have the force of law when activated by a president. You can contact your congressman for information on how to get copies of these EOs, or check your local library.
Here are a few examples of some of the EOs and their purposes:
10995--Federal seizure of all communications media in the United States;
10997--Federal seizure of all electric power, fuels, minerals, public and private;
10998--Federal seizure of all food supplies and resources, public and private and all farms and equipment;
10999--Federal seizure of all means of transportation, including cars, trucks, or vehicles of any kind and total control over all highways, seaports and water ways;
11000--Federal seizure of American people for work forces under federal supervision, including the splitting up of families if the government so desires;
11001--Federal seizure of all health, education and welfare facilities, both public and private;
11002--Empowers the Postmaster General to register all men, women and children in the United States of America;
11003--Federal seizure of all airports and aircraft;
11004--Federal seizure of all housing and finances and authority to establish Forced Relocation. Authority to designate areas to be abandoned as "unsafe," establish new locations for the populations, relocate communities, build new housing with public funds;
11005--Seizure of all railroads, inland waterways and storage facilities, both public and private;
11051--Provides FEMA complete authorization to put above orders into effect in times of increased international tension of economic or financial crisis (FEMA will be in control in case of "National Emergency").

President Clinton wrote one EO that can cover all of these. He wrote EO12919 on June 3, 1994, which was released on June 6, 1994. This EO will be the only thing he needs to enact in order to become a fully empowered dictator. It covers all of the EOs mentioned previously. The only thing this EO doesn’t do is define WHAT the national emergency would have to be in order for this EO to be signed. Please keep that in mind. Anything can be declared a national emergency to facilitate EO 12919 being enacted. Here is the summary of President Clinton’s EO 12919:
Part one of the order describes the purpose, policy and how this EO would be implemented. In section 103 of part one, it mandates that federal departments and agencies will be responsible to bring all the things described in this order about. This means that all individual state departments will have no say in what is happening, so it goes without saying that the American citizens will have no say. These federal departments shall identify the requirements for the "full spectrum of national security emergencies." This includes the "military, industrial and essential civilian demand." Part of their job will be to "foster cooperation between the defense and commercial sectors."
Section 104 empowers FEMA to oversee the carrying out of the EO. FEMA has already been "on the scene" with the several "national emergencies" that have taken place (hurricanes and floods are a couple of examples). When this EO is implemented, FEMA will be responsible to be an advisor for the National Security Council. It will coordinate the plans and the programs for the "authorities and functions delegated." It will establish procedures to resolve conflicts and issues that may come up while implementing this order. FEMA will report to the president on a regular basis.
According to Part Two of Clinton’s EO 12919, the president will delegate authority to allocate the materials, services, and facilities necessary to promote the national defense. The various agency heads that will have designated assignments will be: The Secretary of Agriculture, The Secretary of Energy, The Secretary of Health and Human Services, The Secretary of Transportation, The Secretary of Defense and The Secretary of Commerce. FEMA will be used to resolve any problems with issues between the various agencies. All department heads will give their findings to the president for approval. We will be going into detail about what these department heads will be doing a little further on in the report.
Part Three of EO 12919 explains how this will be financed. The Federal Reserve will be heavily involved. Under section 310 it is discussed how the critical items list they will need to take care of the national emergency will be handled. Each agency head will ensure that all the critical components and technology items are available from reliable sources to "meet defense requirements during peacetime, graduated mobilization, and national emergency."
Part Seven concerns me. It’s entitled "Labor Supply." It is almost common knowledge to freedom lovers that there are civilian labor camps on military installations. There are also processing centers where people can be separated to go to the various camps. It will be the Secretary of Labor’s job to: (a) "Collect, analyze and maintain data needed to make a continuing appraisal of the nation’s labor requirements and the supply of workers for purposes of national defense." Under section (c) they are to "formulate plans, programs and policies for meeting for defense and essential civilian labor requirements." Section (e) talks about the Secretary of Labor determining the jobs and the skills that will be critical to meeting the labor requirements for defense as well as essential civilian activities. Keep in mind that FEMA is the organization behind the civilian labor camps. They are also the organization that will make this executive order go smoothly.
Part Nine, Section 901, is interesting. It talks about the National Defense Executive Reserve (NDER). This is an executive branch composed of people of various parts of the private sector, along with full-time federal employees. Its purpose is to train people in executive positions in the federal government in case of an emergency that would require that type of employment. FEMA, of course, will coordinate the NDER program activities of the departments and agencies.
In section Part Six, Section 602, we get down to what it means to the average citizen. In the case of a presidential decree of national emergency, this is how you and I will be affected:
The president of the United States, with the help of federal agencies, will have control. We will not be including all the subsections, just the ones that hit American citizens where we live:
(a) They will control all transportation, "regardless of ownership." This means that if they need your car, they’ve got it. They will control all public transportation also.
(b) They will control all forms of energy, including "petroleum, gas (natural and manufactured), electricity, solid fuels (including all forms of coal), atomic energy, and the production, conservation, use, control, and distribution (including pipelines)." This means the federal government will have complete control over who will have power (electricity, etc.) and who won’t. They will be able to "pull the plug" on us at their discretion.
(c) They will control all farm equipment. Farmers will not have to be part of "the production or preparation for market use of food resources." They did this in Russia. The farmers worked for the government.
(d) They will control all fertilizer. This means that any product, or combination of products that contain one or more of the elements--nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium--will be able to be confiscated by the government. The reason they have this combination is because it includes anything that can be used as a plant nutrient. If you want a garden, forget it.
(e) They will control all food resources. ALL means ALL. This includes all "commodities and products, simple, mixed, or compound, or complements to such commodities or products that are being ingested by either human beings or animals...." This includes all "starches, sugars, vegetable and animal or marine fats and oils, cotton, tobacco, wool mohair, hemp, flax fiber, and naval stores." That means they can come into your house and take all your food. Period. Catherine Bertini, the executive director "UN World Food Program" made an interesting comment in Beijng, China, at the UN 4th World Conference on Women in September, 1995. She said, "Food is power. We use it to change behavior. Some may call that bribery. We do not apologize."
(f) They will control all food resource facilities. This means "plants, machinery, vehicles (including on farm), and other facilities required for production, processing, distribution and storage (including cold food storage)." They go on to say that it includes "livestock and poultry feed and seed." In other words, they will control anything that has to do with food.
(j) They will control all health resources. This means EVERYTHING. They will have control over all "materials, facilities, health supplies, and equipment (including pharmaceutical, blood collecting and dispensing supplies, biological, surgical textiles, and emergency surgical instruments and supplies)." They will be able to come into your home and take your medicines.
(k) They will control all metals and minerals.
(m) They will control all water resources. ALL usable water from all of the sources within the jurisdiction of the United States. All the water that can be "managed, controlled and allocated to meet emergency requirements." Not only will they be able to turn off your water supply, they can come and take any water you have stored in your house.
How many of you folks knew about this? I find it very interesting that one person, the president of the United States, has the authority to control every person in the country. This EO gives step by step instructions on the complete take over and control of every American.
One of the main things that trouble me is that it eliminates the dignity and individuality of human life. It brings Americans down to the level of domesticated animals. Animals have no control over their owners. Animals have no possessions. Domesticated animals don’t eat unless their owners feed them. Some animals work for their owners. Some animals are used in lab experiments for research purposes. Animals are sometimes put to sleep when they become old, crippled or weak.
We have had an abnormally large number of presidentially declared "national emergencies." Each time, FEMA has been on the scene. In two instances I know of, they have not allowed people out of their own homes (after Hurricane Opal and the flood in Pennsylvania). Could these be practice runs?
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Wulf23 For This Useful Post:
Old 04-23-2008, 06:08 PM
zula's Avatar
zula zula is online now
Crazy old man
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Amarillo Texas
Posts: 1,242
Thanks: 2,410
Thanked 730 Times in 410 Posts
Thumbs up

Wulf is right, I remember when that went in, and I couldn,t believe nobody tried to fight it.
Old 04-23-2008, 06:28 PM
Thedragon's Avatar
Thedragon Thedragon is offline
AKA The Dragon
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,819
Thanks: 2,489
Thanked 1,945 Times in 950 Posts
Default

In a SHTF situation any government will do what it wants, any government will have protocols in place for these situations and won't be made public until it happens.
They will have emergency powers in place and enacted which will come under some obscure legistration that has probably not been used and is covered in cobwebs.
The point is don't rely on government constitutions or legistrations. It has happened in the past, natural disasters and so on where food, fuel, medical supplies and so on have been confiscated or commondeered.
If the SHTF, the government has lost control if it is still in one piece and will do anything to regain control be that local, state or federal.
I am not being subversive, but don't underestimate what any form of government can and will do when it is backed into a corner regardless of what the constitution or legistrations say.
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Thedragon For This Useful Post:
Old 04-28-2012, 07:25 PM
Bufferzone Bufferzone is offline
Prepared
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 252
Thanks: 509
Thanked 196 Times in 102 Posts
Default

when disaster strikes just stand on your porch and beg for food and water like the rest of your neighbors,try to look in worse shape then them. when FEMA vacates your street go back inside and feed your family from your food stocks but never turn down a piece of bread or a bottle of water from FEMA or they will end up with your stocks
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to Bufferzone For This Useful Post:
Old 04-28-2012, 07:36 PM
AtkPilot AtkPilot is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Western States
Posts: 1,483
Thanks: 1,949
Thanked 1,237 Times in 765 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by adam731432 View Post
Its in this thing called the CONSTITUTION

"Separation of church and state" is the political and legal concept that government and religion should be separate, and not interfere in each other's affairs.

In the United States, separation of church and state is often identified with the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…"

I think churches being tax free goes against this as there shall be NO NO NO law specified to a religion establishment. Yes they make laws on top of laws on top of laws but thats another story.
I do not think the Constitution says anything regarding the Separation of
Church and state. Doing a little research you will find that all though the topic was considered at the Constitutional Convention, it was never directly addressed in the document.
Modern day scholars interpet the meaning of the Constitution in many ways. However " Separtion" is not mentioned.

Thank you for your comments.

Last edited by AtkPilot; 04-28-2012 at 07:47 PM.. Reason: Missing word
The Following User Says Thank You to AtkPilot For This Useful Post:
Reply

Bookmarks



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:17 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright Kevin Felts 2006 - 2012,
Green theme by http://www.themesbydesign.net