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Old 06-13-2010, 10:38 PM
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Arrow Winchester white box 9mm 147 grain JHP?



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I normally use remington 9mm Golden Saber 124 grain JHP+P for my self defense rounds. They run me about $18.00 for 25 rounds on CheaperThanDirt.com. I just bought a 50 round box of 9mm Winchester 147 grain jhp in the white box at Wal-mart for $13.00.

I was wondering if anyone has used these and to what effect. I plan to test them next time im at the range but I just wanted to get some feedback by anyone who uses the round.

Im happy with the golden saber but would consider switching over the the white box if there is comparable quality just because of the major price difference. Almost double the rounds for half the price!!! I could stock way more ammo in a much shorter time. But It isnt worth it if there is a trade-off of stopping power,expansion, or reliability.

The winchester is a heavier bullet but doesnt have the +P that the Remington has.

Any imput would be great, thanks.

Last edited by Oak0586; 06-13-2010 at 10:39 PM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 06-13-2010, 11:17 PM
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Never saw a person get shot with ball / target / cheapy ammo and not end up on the ground then the ER. Exotic ammo is good don't get me wrong. Stagger the ammo 2 on 2 (two first exotic, next two ball FMJ etc...) should take care of any problems while extending the money a bit.

Every enemy combatant that has been killed in combat by anyone in our military (with exception to snipers and special ops) dies or is horrifically maimed from generic ball ammo.
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Old 06-13-2010, 11:19 PM
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Sabers have had kind of a poor testing history. In general the round has a problem of having the jacket prematurly disbonding, and the round not expanding properly. This inhibits consistancy in a human body, and can either create under penetration by a few inchs(which could be a good shot with less then fatal results in any caliber). They are better then nothing and for the price range they are about as effective as others of similiar build and price.

I suggest DPX rounds, or other quality primarily copper rounds.
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Old 06-14-2010, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarksInnerDemon View Post
Sabers have had kind of a poor testing history. In general the round has a problem of having the jacket prematurly disbonding, and the round not expanding properly. ...
Note that Golden Sabers come in bonded versions in most calibers, more expensive, too.

- OS
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Old 06-14-2010, 01:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarksInnerDemon View Post
Sabers have had kind of a poor testing history. In general the round has a problem of having the jacket prematurly disbonding, and the round not expanding properly. This inhibits consistancy in a human body, and can either create under penetration by a few inchs(which could be a good shot with less then fatal results in any caliber). They are better then nothing and for the price range they are about as effective as others of similiar build and price.

I suggest DPX rounds, or other quality primarily copper rounds.
Thanks for the post. Do you have any links where I could see that info about the golden sabers performance? All reviews of the round that I have read were good. So if im using a crud round id like to know.
Old 06-14-2010, 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Oh Shoot View Post
Note that Golden Sabers come in bonded versions in most calibers, more expensive, too.

- OS
Im not sure if mine are the bonded type? They dont say bonded, they do however say High Performance Brass Jacket. If that makes any difference?
Old 06-14-2010, 03:14 AM
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i would forget what everyone tells you should get, and get what ever brand your weapon likes best

what is important is that you can hit your target,so lessen to your weapon and let it tell you what ammo to get
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Old 06-14-2010, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oak0586 View Post
Im not sure if mine are the bonded type? They dont say bonded, they do however say High Performance Brass Jacket. If that makes any difference?
Package would say bonded.
Not sure of product code.
I carry "regular" Golden Saber 9mm 124 gr. +p, confident they'll do the job.

Quote:
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i would forget what everyone tells you should get, and get what ever brand your weapon likes best

what is important is that you can hit your target,so lessen to your weapon and let it tell you what ammo to get
Yeah, way too much emphasis put on the best super duper man killer boolits.
Any hollow point made will do the job, including WWB, assuming you do your job.

- OS
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Old 06-15-2010, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Erick--I am not entirely sure about which version of the .45 ACP Golden Saber you are refering. In our testing, both the standard and bonded versions have had lackluster performance during testing through denim. We have also noticed significant variations in muzzle flash with the Remington handgun loads. In addition, the Remington handgun loads also seem to leave more powder residue in the pistols compared to some other brands.
.45 ACP Rem 230 gr JHP GS45SPB (lot # Y19PA7502), gel calib=8.5 cm @ 588 f/s:
Bare Gelatin--vel=794, pen=15.0, RD=0.69, RL=0.45, RW=230.4
4 layers of Denim-- vel=799, pen=20+, RD=0.46, RL=0.65, RW=228.1

.45 ACP Rem 230 gr bonded JHP GSB45APB (lot# P31NB3502), gel calib=9.0 cm @571 f/s
Bare Gelatin--vel=889, pen=13.6, RD=0.69, RL=0.45, RW=230.3
4 layers of Denim-- vel=887, pen=18.5, RD=0.57, RL=0.57, RW=228.3
Quote:
My understanding from talking to the Doc is that Remington has had QC issues, which is why it is not recommended.
I would link you but the sight is pretty well locked up unless you know someone etc. Alot of the info has rolled over to M4 forums by now, but remington has had issues.
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Old 06-15-2010, 01:47 AM
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Are they the NATO rounds? If so I've used them and they pack a punch. I only shot 50 as I know they can cause wear.
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Old 06-15-2010, 01:55 AM
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Originally Posted by MH12194 View Post
Are they the NATO rounds? If so I've used them and they pack a punch. I only shot 50 as I know they can cause wear.
To my knowledge every nato approved round is FMJ I could be wrong. Sabers are most defiantly not nato approved though.
Old 06-15-2010, 07:46 PM
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Niether is nato. Both are JHP. I just thought they might be to good to be true, because of price. 50 rounds for $13.00 V.S. 25 rounds for $18.00.

I have been using sabers for a while, they dont seem to leave more crud in my gun than any other High end round ive used.
I need to find somewhere i can do my own penetration tests.
Old 06-15-2010, 09:24 PM
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I had good experiences with the Winchester 147gr ammo in Black Talon and Ranger loads. The white box is the same load with a basic hollow point bullet designed for self defense in the USA line of Winchester ammo. Very good penetration, limited expansion. The 124gr and the plus P or the 127gr plus p plus Ranger will have optimal penetration and expansion from shorter barrel type handguns like 2 or 3 inch weapons. It was second choice for a lot of law enforcement agencies around here before they switched all to .40 cal guns. The majority that kept the 9milies have kept the same load that worked for them the 147gr JHP SXT bonded from Winchester.
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Old 06-15-2010, 09:48 PM
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I've never seen WWB JHP's at my wally worlds, I'll have to keep an eye out and pick up some if they start stocking it.
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Old 06-17-2010, 08:09 PM
MarksInnerDemon MarksInnerDemon is offline
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Oak0586 - Unless you have calibrated gel you wont even get near the knowledge of how the bullet works in human bodies. Jugs with water wet phone books etc have all pushed myths about round. Just FYI all this info has been tested already.

drjustice454 - The bonding and expansion are far different on both rounds. While the Ranger SXT(gotta love name changes to circument the stupid) are a older slightly less reliable round then most modern designs, they are substantially better then your Sabers. They consistantly penetrate to the proper death, generally don't deform, or choke up with fabrics, and keep consistant pressures.

Plus the waxy coating is supposed to protect the barrel which might be nice if your shooting alot. I am not concerned that much about my barrels but hey to each ther own.
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Old 06-17-2010, 09:27 PM
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Exclamation lots of misinformation in this thread!

W-W 147gr JHP has been around since 1990 or '91. It was originally marketed as premium ammo called "Deep Penetrator Subsonic", designed for use in suppressed firearms [that's a silencer for you n00bs] and to meet the 12" minimum penetration requirements as prescribed by the FBI after the '86 Miami shootout.

Is it suitable for self-defense? Yes. However, there are better loads currently available.

Please read this for suitable SD ammunition: http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De..._FAQ/index.htm


Quote:
Originally Posted by Still here. View Post
Never saw a person get shot with ball / target / cheapy ammo and not end up on the ground then the ER. Exotic ammo is good don't get me wrong. Stagger the ammo 2 on 2 (two first exotic, next two ball FMJ etc...) should take care of any problems while extending the money a bit.

Every enemy combatant that has been killed in combat by anyone in our military (with exception to snipers and special ops) dies or is horrifically maimed from generic ball ammo.
Informing people to stagger their ammo in the mag and that exotic & FMJ ammo is a very bad idea for a variety of reasons.

I would disregard everything mentioned in this post above.. Complete nonsense

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarksInnerDemon
While the Ranger SXT(gotta love name changes to circument the stupid) are a older slightly less reliable round then most modern designs, they are substantially better then your Sabers. They consistantly penetrate to the proper death, generally don't deform, or choke up with fabrics, and keep consistant pressures.

Plus the waxy coating is supposed to protect the barrel which might be nice if your shooting alot. I am not concerned that much about my barrels but hey to each ther own
The 'waxy coating' is called Lubalox and is coated onto the bullets for a variety of reasons. It used to be black on their Black Talon ammo, but is a gold color on the current Ranger bullets.

Which newer designs are more reliable? Many many P.D. agencies use W-W Ranger ammo with excellent results. Chicago PD for example. They also use 230gr R-P Golden Sabers with the same excellent results. Rangers are NOT substantially better than Golden Sabers, that's also complete nonsense
Old 06-17-2010, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Filthy_McNasty View Post
W-W 147gr JHP has been around since 1990 or '91. It was originally marketed as premium ammo called "Deep Penetrator Subsonic", designed for use in suppressed firearms [that's a silencer for you n00bs] and to meet the 12" minimum penetration requirements as prescribed by the FBI after the '86 Miami shootout.

Is it suitable for self-defense? Yes. However, there are better loads currently available.

Please read this for suitable SD ammunition: http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De..._FAQ/index.htm



Informing people to stagger their ammo in the mag and that exotic & FMJ ammo is a very bad idea for a variety of reasons.

I would disregard everything mentioned in this post above.. Complete nonsense


The 'waxy coating' is called Lubalox and is coated onto the bullets for a variety of reasons. It used to be black on their Black Talon ammo, but is a gold color on the current Ranger bullets.

Which newer designs are more reliable? Many many P.D. agencies use W-W Ranger ammo with excellent results. Chicago PD for example. They also use 230gr R-P Golden Sabers with the same excellent results. Rangers are NOT substantially better than Golden Sabers, that's also complete nonsense
Whats wrong with my post, you seem to know so much did you wiki information?......

Doctor Roberts however has posted a good bit on the damn round which is mostly the source I have come from. Maybe I missed something....... Please tell me what I have so I can correct it.

I have seen the images of the Golden Saber the fragmentation, and jacket disbondment, which aren't great qualities in pistol ammo. Do you disagree?

As for better rounds most of the Full Copper rounds perform far better, such as Corbon DPX for one. The rounds have better abilities through laminated glass etc. This is important for cops, and I would say for self defense. By no means are Ranger rounds of poor quality, just of the mix of things speer gold dot, and even hydroshock have performed a bit better overall from what I have read.

Now unless you can hold up your accusations of false information, I suggest you back check your info a bit better, or ask for clarification which will allow you to attack.

Also the link you provided is good, but its dramatically boiled down a good bit.

I am not saying I am always right, but my post is pretty well based in reliable information, if I missed something please let me know with a civil manner.
Old 06-18-2010, 12:18 AM
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A while back I picked up a couple of boxes of WWB 147 gain jhp..
I noticed inconsistencies in both width and depth of the hollow points.
and that isnt the case with any other type/brand of jhp personal defense ammo I have or have seen. even the hollow points on wolf 7.62x39 is more consistent.

my feg pjk-hp9 (browning HP clone) had multiple FTF's with this stuff
and this gun has been a piranha when it comes to eating funky ammo.
but that's just my gun and I don't have another 9mm to test it with.
Old 06-18-2010, 12:29 PM
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For that price on the Winchesters - grab 'em ! Give them a try - they may or may not work in YOUR weapon - every gun has "likes/dislikes" - but at that price why not try them.

I have used 147gr 9mm in Hi-Powers, Smith m59s and Glock 17s - I like the heavier bullet over lighter faster bullets.

I've never had any problems with Winchester White box ammo (maybe I'm lucky??)
Old 06-18-2010, 05:18 PM
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Question my information from Wikipedia? Surely you can't be serious

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarksInnerDemon View Post
Whats wrong with my post, you seem to know so much did you wiki information?......

Doctor Roberts however has posted a good bit on the damn round which is mostly the source I have come from. Maybe I missed something....... Please tell me what I have so I can correct it.

I have seen the images of the Golden Saber the fragmentation, and jacket disbondment, which aren't great qualities in pistol ammo. Do you disagree?

As for better rounds most of the Full Copper rounds perform far better, such as Corbon DPX for one. The rounds have better abilities through laminated glass etc. This is important for cops, and I would say for self defense. By no means are Ranger rounds of poor quality, just of the mix of things speer gold dot, and even hydroshock have performed a bit better overall from what I have read.

Now unless you can hold up your accusations of false information, I suggest you back check your info a bit better, or ask for clarification which will allow you to attack.

Also the link you provided is good, but its dramatically boiled down a good bit.

I am not saying I am always right, but my post is pretty well based in reliable information, if I missed something please let me know with a civil manner.
I wasn't attacking you. Those are facts.
I too am a student of Doc Roberts. Golden Sabers are known to suffer from core/jacket separation, but only towards the end of penetration. They do not fragment as you suggest, i therefore have to disagree. I have 230gr Golden Sabres loaded in my G21 right next to me. Golden Sabres reliably expand at very low velocity levels, and through heavy clothing. Most non-bonded bullets suffer from jacket/core separation anyways..

Hydra-Shok ammo is outdated and prone to clogging with debris and not expanding. I've several unexpanded 230gr H-S bullets from my own personal ballistics experiments using the 4-layer denim test. Hydra-Shok ammo sucks. Period. Don't believe me? I challenge you to start a thread at http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91 and inquire as to the overall performance of Federal Hydra-Shok ammunition. I'm "Rampant Colt" over there


As for the W-W 147gr USA ammo, like i stated in my previous post, it's suitable for SD, but better loads are available now.. How much are the lives of you and your loved ones worth? Can you put a price on that? I'm willing to spend a couple bucks more for premium ammo and piece of mind.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

this list is from Doc Roberts' recommended ammo choices outlined in the link i previously posted:

W-W 127gr +P+ & 147gr Ranger T
W-W Partition Gold 124gr
W-W Ranger-T 124 gr +P
W-W Bonded 147gr JHP
R-P 147gr Golden Sabre
Federal 124gr & 147gr HST [NOT Hydra-Shok]
Federal Tactical 124gr (LE9T1)
Speer 124gr +P & 147gr Gold Dot
Corbon 115gr DPX
Federal Tactical 135gr JHP +P (LE9T5)

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