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Old 05-17-2010, 03:19 PM
dcliffhanger dcliffhanger is offline
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My God now I find out I've been doing it wrong all these years and got that CCW for no good reason, and all that money on guns and practice rounds.

When all I needed was a sock with a rock in it!
Old 05-17-2010, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by letsgetreal View Post
Interesting, you say while shot with a .45, they continue to fight, but then propose a blackjack is superior to that.
if given the choice please beat the hezl out of me with a blackjack. I carried a 1911as a back up in Nam I think those over there would have taken the blackjack also.
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Old 05-17-2010, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by letsgetreal View Post
Interesting, you say while shot with a .45, they continue to fight, but then propose a blackjack is superior to that.
I wasn't the one that said it, but I'll address it.

If you shoot someone in the head with the .45 ACP, they generally go down.

Now, let's compare apples to apples instead of apples and Cadillacs.

If you pistolwhip someone on their head, especially on the flats of the skull, you have a knockout capability. You are using it as an impact weapon, more akin to the bludgeon. If you strike downwards on someone's clavicle with a pistol, blackjack or ASP Baton, if it's hard, it will break the clavicle, a target ASP (The Company, Armament Procedures and Products) considers to be a lethal target because of the possibility of the broken clavicle piercing the top of the lung or the subclavian artery or vein on whichever side is struck.

So, yes, you can get into a situation where you could shoot someone with a .45, single action Colt Army if you prefer or a Colt 1911 or variant and it might not knock them unconscious or otherwise take them out of the right. You should repeat as necessary in that case. But you could have a buddy come right up behind the guy and (classic term) Buffalo him with the butt or barrel of a pistol or a Blackjack or Sap and knock him unconscious instantly. Something that an ASP will not usually do, by the way. It doesn't have the weight to carry real knockout power but a pistol or Sap - does. You usually get a bent ASP that won't close when you hit someone that hard and if you are lucky, you just lost a rather expensive baton, if not, you have someone on the other end of it with a depressed skull fracture and it had better have been a lethal force situation for you to hit them in the head. ASP won't stand with you as a Citizen unless you are Law Enforcement or Security and have went through the training program and I am not betting money they would stand behind private security.
Old 05-17-2010, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by madcritter View Post
if given the choice please beat the hezl out of me with a blackjack. I carried a 1911as a back up in Nam I think those over there would have taken the blackjack also.
All depends on who was doing the beating and with what you were being beaten with, brother. I'd rather get hit with a flat sap than a blackjack and I'd rather be hit with a sap or a jack instead of the butt end of a 1911. The 1911 will definitely crack your skull if the guy using it wants to see some lasagna.
Old 05-17-2010, 04:53 PM
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Growing up in the 1970s, we had neighborhood cop who even the toughest criminals would not take on. He had a reputation for knocking them out in one punch, even though he was one of the smallest guys on the force. I met him years later after he retired. The secret of his success? Sap gloves.
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Old 05-17-2010, 04:55 PM
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yep they do work just got to make sure they are handy.
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Old 05-17-2010, 05:34 PM
Katrina Guy Katrina Guy is offline
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Great, I've got to pack a 1911 45, a Jack, and now a buddy.
When will it end!
Old 05-17-2010, 07:20 PM
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Sap gloves, black jacks, asp are illegal to conceal on your person in most states and would be frowned upon in a courtroom and if encountered by LEO's. A good maglite type light is easy to carry and deploy as a defensive tool if needed, and can be carried almost anywhere.
Old 05-17-2010, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by talon115 View Post
Sap gloves, black jacks, asp are illegal to conceal on your person in most states and would be frowned upon in a courtroom and if encountered by LEO's. A good maglite type light is easy to carry and deploy as a defensive tool if needed, and can be carried almost anywhere.
See my post above RE: claw hammer.
Old 05-17-2010, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Katrina Guy View Post
"Blackjack" that is like so old.
The new politically correct term is "African-AmericanJack".
Get with the times!
Damn, you are right, I am so sorry.
I feel like such a heel.
LOL.
Old 05-17-2010, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by letsgetreal View Post
Interesting, you say while shot with a .45, they continue to fight, but then propose a blackjack is superior to that.
well.... yeah.
Old 05-17-2010, 10:17 PM
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several lead fishing weights can be sewn into your hatband making a very discrete weapon.or tie your big fat keychain on the end of your hankie.
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Old 05-18-2010, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oh Shoot View Post
Well, you know, those big ole slow .45's.
Lucky if you break the skin with them.

- OS
Don't have to break the skin when you can just hit 'em in the chest with a dinner plate at 900-1100 fps.

--DL
Old 05-18-2010, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Viking View Post
+1

There were times in the past when I carried a GI lensatic compass in my back pocket (and a map from the hotel front desk) - good flail weapon.

Never had to use it though
A good flail weapon and multi purpose tool.

Love it! And it weighs about next to nothing.

And you could get it into a court house, airport terminal, etc....

Nice.

Mr 2020
Old 05-18-2010, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr2020 View Post
A good flail weapon and multi purpose tool.

Love it! And it weighs about next to nothing.
A "good flail" weapon tends to weigh "something" or it's not that good as a flail weapon.

The USGI Lensatic would definitely knock some teeth out, cut someone up fairly bad, I don't know that it would have the knockout power and it would definitely ruin that compass. Those are tough, I have had the same one for about 25 years now, but it's not so tough when used as a bludgeon.
Old 05-18-2010, 10:58 AM
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Retractable Baton guy here. Effective, fast to use, easy to conceal and takes the fight out someone really quick.

When I was doing nightclub security, I have seen head strikes with it that cracked a person's skull open like a melon. I had never seen that much blood in my life, I thought he was dead. At that point I never used it on the head as it scared the hell out of me. So I used it only if I really needed to and did arm, hand and knee strikes. Believe me it take the fight out of them fast even if they have a weapon which is the only time I used it.
Old 05-18-2010, 01:12 PM
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They have had incredible failures to stop with ASPs down here, cops using them. Opinions vary.

And I actually like ASPs.
Old 05-18-2010, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vegasrandall View Post
several lead fishing weights can be sewn into your hatband making a very discrete weapon.or tie your big fat keychain on the end of your hankie.
Love it. When the police ask why you have fishing weights sewn into your hat, I would say, "Well officer, the wind kept blowing it off my head. Little did I know that it would come in so handy in such a stressfull situation. Being in fear for life and limb, I just swung it to keep that angry fellow away from me."

Last edited by City Boy; 05-18-2010 at 05:50 PM.. Reason: spelling mistake
Old 05-18-2010, 06:35 PM
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Everyone is so concerned about the law enforcement contact in the aftermath. Defend yourself, they don't bring out the forensic experts to see if someone used a sap on someone's nut unless you kill them which you are more likely to do with an ASP baton than a flat sap.
Old 05-18-2010, 06:42 PM
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Here in Florida blackjacks, saps, brass knuckles are all allowed to be carried IF you have a valid concealed weapons license. I own all of the above, but very rarely carry any of them. The way I see it, it would not look good in front of a jury. Much better to just shoot them nice and dead.

A good attorney will ask you a couple of questions...
1. why would you carry this if you own a gun?
2. why would you use this on an attacker if you have a gun?

The only real answer you could give would be that maybe you didn't really want to kill the guy?..
If so, you just admitted that you just used a deadly weapon when you didn't feel it was necessary to use deadly force.
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