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Old 05-17-2010, 08:54 AM
LatinoHeat LatinoHeat is offline
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Default Blackjacks. The ultimate close quarters weapon?



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Ok, so, we talk about firearms, tasers and knives all the time here. Things to carry for self defense. Well, my personal favorite self defense weapon is a blackjack. It seems to have the most stopping power of all close quarters weapons. A knife can cut the crap out of someone and they don't even realize it. People get shot with 45s and keep going. Granted, these people may die shortly thereafter, but while the struggle is going on, they are still on you, and still hurting you. I remember reading on another forum how one of the reasons police carry the plastic or synthetic nightsticks now is because of the damage the old wooden billy clubs incurred. Broken arms, broken legs, etc. Blunt force trauma, to a very high degree, is a greater deterent then the cut of a blade, or a small bullet.
Again, I am not talking lethality, I am talking stopping power.
A blackjack will pretty much destroy anything it touches. Granted, a little training is in order, but that's true of ALL weapons. Targeted at knees, collar bones, or elbows, and it will render the attacker pretty useless. Target the head repeatedly, and it's over. Target the back/base of the head it's lights out.
Again, there is a compromise. You have to get within arm's range to use one, but sometimes, it's where the fight happens. So, what do you guys think of blackjacks/slapjacks?
Old 05-17-2010, 08:57 AM
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carried them a long time back, replaced years ago by the ASP Collapsible Baton a much better device.
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Old 05-17-2010, 09:04 AM
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My first thoughts...its a usefull tool but to me its inferior for fighting to a gun or knife
Someone can grab the end of a blackjack and fight or overpower you with little or no injury to themselves.

with a gun/pistol...not so much...you dont want to grab the blade/muzzle

Also it requires more of your own swing and momentum. You have to have decent swinging distance between yourself and the bg to be effective.
Old 05-17-2010, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by madcritter View Post
carried them a long time back, replaced years ago by the ASP Collapsible Baton a much better device.
Really? I used to think so too, but have seen too many videos of police going at it on a suspect with their collapsible batons (more then one cop, mind you), and the guy still going, to trust them anymore. I still have it. I just don't...... I don't know.
Hmmm. Maybe some tests are in order.
Old 05-17-2010, 09:07 AM
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"Blackjack" that is like so old.
The new politically correct term is "African-AmericanJack".
Get with the times!
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Old 05-17-2010, 09:21 AM
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Had a great uncle that held the local sheriff's dept record for most prisoners in the back seat of a 78 chevy impala patrol car,after a bar fight. 9,asked him how he got em all in ,he pulled his blackjack and smiled.
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Old 05-17-2010, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by madcritter View Post
carried them a long time back, replaced years ago by the ASP Collapsible Baton a much better device.
I've carried and used both. ASPs are different but not necessarily "better." For police departments that don't really want to knock people unconscious anymore, the ASP is a better instrument.

ASPs used on the head are a no-no unless you find yourself in a lethal force situation and the ASP is what you have in your hand.

Flat Saps, a/k/a "Beavertails" are less likely to cause a depressed skull fracture, as the ASPs are, and therefore a technically "better" weapon for regular Citizens who cannot call for back-up or assault people over and over again (ASP Baton) until they comply, etc.

Blackjacks, proper, round body, can cause depressed skull fractures and are more than a little bit more dangerous to use than the ASP or Flat Sap.

"Pain Compliance" for regular Citizens is a non-starter for me and in most law enforcement situations, "Pain Compliance" doesn't mean some fancy nerve technique to make them hurt but involves beating their ass.
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Old 05-17-2010, 10:01 AM
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In Pennsylvania, get caught with a blackjack, and you go to jail.

Poor choice of weapon. Plus you need some momentum to actually use it.

A small blade, not a combat knife, maybe a box cutter, maybe a small simple lockback knife, can still be carried legally, invisibly and almost anywhere.

And you don't need any momentum to start defending yourself, or damaging bad guys.

Mr2020

PS: Pain compliance is an absolute joke. Glad to see some other folks here get that too. Someone who is trained well, on drugs, or plain old determined or nuts (maybe all the above) is almost impossible to "control" with pain compliance. Green belts who want to impress the Sensei, are the dummies that are easy to control, with silly pain compliance techniques.
Old 05-17-2010, 10:35 AM
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Why mess around? get a claw hammer.

Old 05-17-2010, 11:12 AM
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There is a significant between deterrence and disability. I have carried and used most of types of striking tools: Straight sticks- Riot Baton, wooden nightsticks, steel collapsible,aluminum, plastic Side handle batons in various materials and configurations as well as the old " Slapper" and Blackjacks ( Which by the way are similar but not at all the same) as well as tactical flashlight and Ku-batons. Like firearms as tools they are not interchangeable just because they are all generally impact weapons. The selection of the best tool for the situation depends on several factors.
#1.Range- Distance to target or lack there of.
#2.Force type needed:
A.Control/ Compliance as in various body bars, locks, or strikes designed to move, prevent movement of the target area or person as a whole, or to encourage the following of an order given by an LEO by creating pain.
B. Deadly force-The higher level of force needed to disable/disarm via serious physical harm which could cause death.
Understand that LEO use of impact weapons is primarily intended to fill a control/compliance role with offensive or defensive uses being secondary. Leo's have to follow a use of force continuum which dictates how and when they may escalate force. The point is that they are required to get the job done using only the amount of force required and no more. Survival situations are not at all the same.
For me it was never which to carry, but which to use. Many times that boils down to what you happen to have on hand when things go south. Along with weapon selection goes technical ability. That relates to your training and skill level for each type of weapon.
So- Full sized batons in all their configurations allows you more distance from a hostile target. Unless they have a projectile weapon this is good for you. Side handled batons add speed and better defense with blocks and hooks and somewhat better weapon retention. They are generally better for defense against multiple attackers as well due to the area they can control using speed. However, my preference for one on one when there is room is the straight stick because I have a better command of control techniques.
Close in is where the short stick "Billy" club and slappers or blackjacks come into their own. Weapon retention is generally better as there is less length for an assailant to grab.The slapper or blackjack can be used to strike very quickly and unnoticed from out of a pocket. Because it is so easily carried I found that I always had it available and could run with it while keeping both hands free (one of the reasons for the collapsible baton btw).
A straight stick expandable or otherwise can be used to break bones. But you really need some distance to put that kind of power into them. All manner of things can get in the way of the striking arc of the weapon, in addition to the fact that they can be seen coming and blocked. The slapper can break bones with a single strike using a very small arc and the edge of the weapon. In addition because of the small arc many strikes can be delivered quickly. It can be much more effective in situations where you are on the ground or otherwise do not have the space for a weapon that requires a larger arc of strike. So you see one type of impact weapon does not equal all others.
Police use does not equal civilian use because the differences in training and overall purposes. The ASP type expandable batons are a good tool but they don't even teach various of the old straight stick baton tactics because the the lethality of some of them. LEO's have to be ultra concerned with department policy and liability issues.For these reasons they are restricted to department sanctioned impact weapons and tactics. Certain areas of the body are completely off limits as are some types of strikes and holds unless deadly force is called for.
In terms of liabilities you also should be aware of them before you decide what tools and tactics you will plan to use.Lastly be sure to check your local laws concerning carrying of slappers/ blackjacks.

Last edited by Oldschool2; 05-17-2010 at 11:34 AM..
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Old 05-17-2010, 11:47 AM
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it does seem old school. like from a black and white movie..
i like my tomahawk -a cut down drywall hammer.
even older schooler?
but its bad to be walkin the streets with things
that can get you a weapons charge..
you can carry a cane anywhere.
and configure it in many ways.
i often have a 4'' masonry trowel in my pocket.
it fits on the cane..
i have an old broadhead on my keychain.
it fits too.
a couple rolls of quarters
to drop in my gloves...
you get the idea..
i once had a talk with a pretty gritty street guy
he carried a tin can lid doubled over..
i stick with deputy fife
my whole bodys a weapon andy..
Old 05-17-2010, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LatinoHeat View Post
Really? I used to think so too, but have seen too many videos of police going at it on a suspect with their collapsible batons (more then one cop, mind you), and the guy still going, to trust them anymore. I still have it. I just don't...... I don't know.
Hmmm. Maybe some tests are in order.
State of NC stopped LEO caring slap jacks in the 70's I expect most states did the same. I have used both out on necessity. Seen some stop after one pop from the jack but many just got pizzed off more and fight harder.
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Old 05-17-2010, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOTCHKISS GUN View Post
it does seem old school. like from a black and white movie..
i like my tomahawk -a cut down drywall hammer.
even older schooler?
but its bad to be walkin the streets with things
that can get you a weapons charge..
you can carry a cane anywhere.
and configure it in many ways.
i often have a 4'' masonry trowel in my pocket.
it fits on the cane..
i have an old broadhead on my keychain.
it fits too.
a couple rolls of quarters
to drop in my gloves...
you get the idea..
i once had a talk with a pretty gritty street guy
he carried a tin can lid doubled over..
i stick with deputy fife
my whole bodys a weapon andy..
I like the tomahawk! The others are great as expedient weapons too. Full pop cans (or beer if you prefer) with judicious tapping can provide a drink after the ruckus. A large spike nail in a pocket (Not a back one)or finishing nails taped to the old M-80's even have their uses.The possibilities of being charged for traditional weapon types under various laws are real and need to be considered for anyone carrying them. As are the possibilities that your opponent may be armed with some innocuous object that can be used as a weapon. I love expedient weapons are they are only limited to the creativity of the user.Dual ability weapons are always preferred. Stick (Impact) combined with blade/spike (Edged) for slashing or stabbing abilities are always handy.
Old 05-17-2010, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr2020 View Post
In Pennsylvania, get caught with a blackjack, and you go to jail.
Everything is illegal somewhere, might as well stop discussion of many things then.

Quote:
Poor choice of weapon. Plus you need some momentum to actually use it.
If you have a spring-loaded 'Jack, I guarantee you that you can absolutely knock the sh!t out of someone by thumbs down to thumbs up or the reverse of that with about 6 inches of forearm movement. Some momentum required.

Quote:
A small blade, not a combat knife, maybe a box cutter, maybe a small simple lockback knife, can still be carried legally, invisibly and almost anywhere.

And you don't need any momentum to start defending yourself, or damaging bad guys.
Momentum, yeah...well, the momentum angle you're citing drops out of the southern end of horses but you're right about the rest of it, re: the small knife.

The great thing about Blackjacks and Saps is, they knock people out. Don't worry about them freaking out that they have been cut and they decide to end the fight or they lose consciousness from severe or cumulative hemorrhage or you stab and cut them to death by hitting more vital areas.

The bad thing about edged weapons is those are your choices up above.

I'm not condemning edged weapons, I'm just saying that they are not necessarily "superior." It all depends on what you want to accomplish.

Quote:
PS: Pain compliance is an absolute joke. Glad to see some other folks here get that too. Someone who is trained well, on drugs, or plain old determined or nuts (maybe all the above) is almost impossible to "control" with pain compliance.
Agreed.

That which doesn't kill me, usually regrets it later.
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Old 05-17-2010, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr2020 View Post
In Pennsylvania, get caught with a blackjack, and you go to jail.

Poor choice of weapon. Plus you need some momentum to actually use it.

A small blade, not a combat knife, maybe a box cutter, maybe a small simple lockback knife, can still be carried legally, invisibly and almost anywhere.

And you don't need any momentum to start defending yourself, or damaging bad guys.

Mr2020

PS: Pain compliance is an absolute joke. Glad to see some other folks here get that too. Someone who is trained well, on drugs, or plain old determined or nuts (maybe all the above) is almost impossible to "control" with pain compliance. Green belts who want to impress the Sensei, are the dummies that are easy to control, with silly pain compliance techniques.
+1

There were times in the past when I carried a GI lensatic compass in my back pocket (and a map from the hotel front desk) - good flail weapon.

Never had to use it though
Old 05-17-2010, 01:56 PM
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Seems to be such a waste for such a good compass when a padlock will do nicely.
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Old 05-17-2010, 02:05 PM
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Any "club" (includes saps and the like and batons) is illegal to carry in TN unless you have certification from a certified class; and there aren't many statewide.

Carry a knife up to 4" blade, but not a sap. Go figure.

- OS
Old 05-17-2010, 02:15 PM
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Interesting, you say while shot with a .45, they continue to fight, but then propose a blackjack is superior to that.
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Old 05-17-2010, 02:58 PM
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Interesting, you say while shot with a .45, they continue to fight, but then propose a blackjack is superior to that.
Well, you know, those big ole slow .45's.
Lucky if you break the skin with them.

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Old 05-17-2010, 03:06 PM
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I have black jacks and have used them a time or two, I now carry and ASP or similar baton. Easier to hide and easier to use in my experience, and a good strike with any of them will give some putz pause. Try a shin shot with a baton, or knee, takes the fight right out of folks. As for legality, who cares? I carry mine hidden and they NEVER come out unless they need to be used and at that point all bets are off, I behave myself and don't have to worry about being frisked. Lot's of stuff is "illegal" like breaking the speed limit, yet we ALLdo it everyday...
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