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Old 05-09-2010, 12:31 PM
SHOfan SHOfan is offline
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Default 7.62X25 or 9X18?



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Hey guys, Im in the market for my first pistol. It is going to be mainly for home/self defense but also for SHTF. I am on a REALLY tight budget but think that these choices are best for me so far. The two choices are; a handgun in 7.62X25 like the Tokarev or CZ-52, OR a handgun in 9X18 Makarov or CZ-82

Im leaning towards the 7.62X25 because I have heard you can get adapters to fire it in mosin nagants? Is this true? If so I could use this ammo in conjunction with the X54R if my supply ever dwindled. Any advice?

Thanks- Jon
Old 05-09-2010, 12:41 PM
Herd Sniper Herd Sniper is offline
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If so I could use this ammo in conjunction with the X54R if my supply ever dwindled. Any advice?

Unless there is something new out there... 7.62 X 54R is rifle ammo. How do you mean to incorporate that into use of firearms that shoot 7.62 X 25 pistol ammo? I may be missing something here, probably because of the wording or something but unless you mean to use Russian/Communist pistol ammo in addition to Russian/Communist rifle ammo I'd be very careful.

I would for SHTF situations, if this were me, go with a good Tokarev pistol in 7.62 X 25 caliber because you can get spam cans of the ammo for a really good price and because the penetration of such rounds is really very good. The 9 X 18 Makarov is a good gun but the ammo is so much more expensive. I would be thinking long term use and storage so the idea of stockpiling the 7.62 X 25 ammo would probably better suit my needs.

Does this help out a little?
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Old 05-09-2010, 12:48 PM
SHOfan SHOfan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herd Sniper View Post
If so I could use this ammo in conjunction with the X54R if my supply ever dwindled. Any advice?

Unless there is something new out there... 7.62 X 54R is rifle ammo. How do you mean to incorporate that into use of firearms that shoot 7.62 X 25 pistol ammo? I may be missing something here, probably because of the wording or something but unless you mean to use Russian/Communist pistol ammo in addition to Russian/Communist rifle ammo I'd be very careful.

I would for SHTF situations, if this were me, go with a good Tokarev pistol in 7.62 X 25 caliber because you can get spam cans of the ammo for a really good price and because the penetration of such rounds is really very good. The 9 X 18 Makarov is a good gun but the ammo is so much more expensive. I would be thinking long term use and storage so the idea of stockpiling the 7.62 X 25 ammo would probably better suit my needs.

Does this help out a little?


It does, I understand the confusion let me clarify. I have heard you can fire the 7.62X25 in the Mosin, as well as its 7.62X54R BIG brother. I think its an adapter that goes in the breech I'll look around for it.
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Old 05-09-2010, 12:49 PM
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The tokarev is a great suggestion, but you don't just pick up a TT33 and drive tacs with it.
They have a crazy grip angle but when you learn to shoot it it's on par with anything out there today.
BTW- Herd sniper I think he meant he could get an adapter for the nagant that will allow him to use the x25 in it.
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Old 05-09-2010, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herd Sniper View Post
If so I could use this ammo in conjunction with the X54R if my supply ever dwindled. Any advice?

Unless there is something new out there... 7.62 X 54R is rifle ammo. How do you mean to incorporate that into use of firearms that shoot 7.62 X 25 pistol ammo? I may be missing something here, probably because of the wording or something but unless you mean to use Russian/Communist pistol ammo in addition to Russian/Communist rifle ammo I'd be very careful.
There's an adapter cartridge that lets you fire the 7.62x25 in the Mosin. There are a bunch of them out there that let you fire various smaller rounds in larger chambers. I use one to shoot .22 LR from my 5.56 guns.
Old 05-09-2010, 06:06 PM
whirlibird whirlibird is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SHOfan View Post
Hey guys, Im in the market for my first pistol. It is going to be mainly for home/self defense but also for SHTF. I am on a REALLY tight budget but think that these choices are best for me so far. The two choices are; a handgun in 7.62X25 like the Tokarev or CZ-52, OR a handgun in 9X18 Makarov or CZ-82

Im leaning towards the 7.62X25 because I have heard you can get adapters to fire it in mosin nagants? Is this true? If so I could use this ammo in conjunction with the X54R if my supply ever dwindled. Any advice?

Thanks- Jon
Tight budget and prepping for SHTF. Always a challenge.

First, I hope you can put back enough ammo to feed your choices for a goos long while.
As the chances of finding either post-SHTF is going to be slight at best.
Since the ammo is imported and mostly Berdan primed and very difficult to reload which you obviously don't do yet.

Checking gunshops, gunshows, pawn shops and the like you should be able to come across a decent wheelgun in .38 Special or .357 Magnum for the same general price as the Tok or 52.

By going this way you open your ammunition sources and possibilities up to reloads of both homebrew and commercial flavors, commercial loads and scrounged ammo that aren't available easily for the russian rounds.
Defensive ammo is readily available for the 'commercial' chamberings unlike the soviet products. There's few if any shooters out there that don't have at least a partial box of .38's laying around somewhere even if they don't have a gun in that chambering anymore.

Next by choosing a standard round, you open yourself up to being able to produce (purchase) rounds suitable for hunting if need be. A 158gr LSWC is a great game getter at 800 and 1300fps.

The most effective defensive loads for current home defense use aren't loaded for the Tok and Mak guns, yes there are a few but they're pricey and somewhat rare.

As to the chamber adapters, a handful of brass Boxer primed cases, some lead bullets (round balls also work nicely), some Red Dot powder and an Original Lee Loader will keep you fed long after the rounds for the adapter are gone. And for little over the price of the adapter and a box of ammo.

I do have several adapters, I keep them around for several reasons (mostly toys) but the more accurate and useful sub-loads I have and use often are home-rolled.

The advantage to the Lee Loader is the ability to also load full power ammo for the rifle also, again using lead bullets (if you are out of jacketed) that's still quite effective on game or other vermin.

Another consideration in favor of the wheelgun is the availability of spare parts. The commie guns have no spare parts around to speak of, and few who can work on them if they do fail (52).
While the old wheelguns seldom "break", they do occasionally do fail and there's not a gunsmith out there over the age of 40 who doesn't have at least a few K-frame Smith parts somewhere in his parts boxes/bins. A couple of mainsprings and trigger return springs are the basic spare parts kit for the K-frames.

No the wheelguns don't belch fire when the hammer falls (okay the .357 does but....), no they're not glamorous or cutting edge. But you can leave one loaded for 50 years and it'll still work when you pick it up. They're simple, unpretentious and are a thousand times better in a scrounging situation than an autoloader. And the ammo is eminently more effective in the game fields.

If I just 'had' to have an autoloader, I'd be on the lookout for one of the P-1 Walther's (P-38) that are available for @$300 if you scrounge enough.
Reliable, decently accurate most of the time and a common caliber (9mm) they're again not something you're going to see a SWAT guy pulling out, but they're eminently serviceable and a much better choice than a great many other choices out there including the 52 and Tok or Mak.

All my opinion but having worked as a smith, working in the LE field currently and having owned more guns than I'd care to consider, my opinions are fairly well grounded in experience rather than hyperbole.
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Old 05-09-2010, 06:09 PM
davis davis is offline
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7.62x25 is a lot hotter of a round, its even hotter than 9x19, u could pack about as much ammo in either caliber, plus surplus 7.62x25 is cheap enough
Old 05-09-2010, 06:12 PM
davis davis is offline
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i love the 7.62x25 cound, wish modern firearms makers offered modern pistols like glock or a 1911 in 7.62x25, theres a company that custom builds 7.62 ar 15 uppers i want one!!
this ones a SBR but they make civilian legal 16in uppers as well that are semi,
Old 05-09-2010, 07:28 PM
Big Horn Big Horn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SHOfan View Post
Hey guys, Im in the market for my first pistol. It is going to be mainly for home/self defense but also for SHTF. I am on a REALLY tight budget but think that these choices are best for me so far. The two choices are; a handgun in 7.62X25 like the Tokarev or CZ-52, OR a handgun in 9X18 Makarov or CZ-82

Im leaning towards the 7.62X25 because I have heard you can get adapters to fire it in mosin nagants? Is this true? If so I could use this ammo in conjunction with the X54R if my supply ever dwindled. Any advice?

Thanks- Jon
If I could have only one handgun, I wouldn't consider either of these. I would only get something that used ammo available at Wal-mart or similar places. You may be able to buy ammo for these locally now, but what about the future. The Winchester 7.62x25 was imported.

Starline does make the brass for either; and you can cast the same bullet for either. For handloaders it's an OK choice. I'd say the same thing about the 7.62x54R.
Old 05-09-2010, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Big Horn View Post
If I could have only one handgun, I wouldn't consider either of these. I would only get something that used ammo available at Wal-mart or similar places. You may be able to buy ammo for these locally now, but what about the future. The Winchester 7.62x25 was imported.

Starline does make the brass for either; and you can cast the same bullet for either. For handloaders it's an OK choice. I'd say the same thing about the 7.62x54R.
i would agree, unless u already have a common caliber dont get either, unless u plan on buyings CASES(plural), with the gun.
Old 05-09-2010, 08:34 PM
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LD 50/50 LD 50/50 is offline
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The CZ-52 is one fine firearm, I used to own two of them. They will out shine any 9mm period.
Reload rounds in the 1700-1900fps range.
9mm can touch it
Old 05-09-2010, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LD 50/50 View Post
The CZ-52 is one fine firearm, I used to own two of them. They will out shine any 9mm period.
Reload rounds in the 1700-1900fps range.
9mm can touch it
my uncle 'borrowed a tokarev from a c&r dealer buddy, i shot it next to a p95 9mm, the 7.62x25 was so much louder than the 9mm, and it shot realy flat unlike the 9. we were in southern arkensas at the time so i was just shooting a grass clumps off in the rice vields to see how far it dropped. it shot flat for a pistol
Old 05-10-2010, 08:39 AM
MarksInnerDemon MarksInnerDemon is offline
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look.. These are ok guns.... Frankly though the 7.62x25 isn't the best ballistics in humans. We are talking about 12" penetration that you get from any pistol, no temporary wound cavity. It's essentially a heavy hitting small caliber pistol. Plus everyone says surplus but if you are carrying surplus ball ammo you need a education in ballistics. Hollowpoint 7.62x25 isn't to cheap, and frankly 9-45 is easier to get.

Also 9x18 is fine, but the ammo was harder to find and more expensive most times then 9x19 if I was just going to grab a box real fast.

Get a decent cheap 9-45 probably 9 due to price since the ballistics are all about the same.

Hell get a friend search craigslist etc and have your educated friend get you a used gun.
Old 05-10-2010, 08:45 AM
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heres a comment buy a guy posting on my thread, sum one said it was no better than a 9x19....
'The 7 .62 x 25 outperforms the 9mm by quiet a bit on both penetration and muzzle velocity that reaches up to 1700+ fps. The x25 will penetrate body armor the 9mm just bounces off of.

The Wolf Gold HP ammo is made by Prvi Partizan they also carry the same load but it's a few bucks cheaper than than the Wolf,both are boxer primed and reloadable. Hornady make both a SP and XTP HP bullet for reloading and Sierra makes a FMJ.''
Old 05-10-2010, 08:47 AM
davis davis is offline
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heres another quote by another post on my thread,

''Really? I've assisted in conducting a live fire test using the 7.62x25 against a bullet proof vest on a mannequin. It went through both front and rear of the vest and completely through the mannequin. A 9mm wouldn't penetrate the front of the vest.
There is a significant difference between the 9mm and 7.62X25.

The 7.62x25 is a super fast round and would make an excellent semi auto carbine caliber or even bolt action rifle for survival purposes.

I plant to build a bolt gun for it myself in the not too distant future''
Old 05-10-2010, 08:53 AM
Norinco982lover Norinco982lover is offline
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Basically, it comes down to this.

I refuse (and everyone I have ever spoken to refuses as well) to carry the 7.62x25mm because it is TOO FAST of a bullet for self defence purposes. It over penetrates and I would not use it as a home defence gun either for the same reasons.

There is nothing wrong with the 9x18 and I used to have a CZ-82 which I liked a lot...I only know of 1 brand of hollow points made for them and some CZ-82's will not feed hollow points at all (there is a lip in the feed ramp).

I say--go with 9x19, .38, .40, or .45 if you can afford it. If not, go with 9x18.

~Norinco
Old 05-10-2010, 09:03 AM
davis davis is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norinco982lover View Post
Basically, it comes down to this.

I refuse (and everyone I have ever spoken to refuses as well) to carry the 7.62x25mm because it is TOO FAST of a bullet for self defence purposes. It over penetrates and I would not use it as a home defence gun either for the same reasons.

There is nothing wrong with the 9x18 and I used to have a CZ-82 which I liked a lot...I only know of 1 brand of hollow points made for them and some CZ-82's will not feed hollow points at all (there is a lip in the feed ramp).

I say--go with 9x19, .38, .40, or .45 if you can afford it. If not, go with 9x18.

~Norinco
this is true but i damn sure want that 7.62x25 ar15 upper, that round in a 16in brl is gonna be truckin, u probably arent gonna grab the m4 when u hear a bump in the kitchen, hell u might though, any way im getting off track here i know we are talkin pistols.
Old 05-10-2010, 09:18 AM
MarksInnerDemon MarksInnerDemon is offline
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Davis most people will tell you there gun can kill ninjas at 500 yards, because JMB made it, glock made it, the 45 has amazing knock down power, the 9mm is to fast, the 45 is to slow bla bla bla. Thats all BS and frankly the above is mostly BS if not all.

The frank point is if you are shooting a bullet a bit smaller in diameter then a 32acp a bit faster from a pistol then a 9mm. If you aren't shooting hollow points in your pistol your just being ignorant of good self defense. That said average BALL ammo for a 9mm hits 70cms and the 45 hits 65 cms(around 27"). That's over penetration compared to your round of a whoping 16" according to most true ballistic experts.

As for its hollow-point capabilities..... 11-13 which is just average... with a even smaller diameter then most. Wheres the advantage?

Lastly if they are hitting 1700 then they are lieing, the electronics aren't calibrated, or its over-pressured which is dangerous and stupid and wont do much better for this round. Well maybe its out of a rifle which would make sense, but is irrelevant data for pistol choices.

FMJ 7.6x25


Wolf HP 7.62x25


Hornady XTP 7.62x25


Now you tell me is it that amazing?
Old 05-10-2010, 09:26 AM
davis davis is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarksInnerDemon View Post
Davis most people will tell you there gun can kill ninjas at 500 yards, because JMB made it, glock made it, the 45 has amazing knock down power, the 9mm is to fast, the 45 is to slow bla bla bla. Thats all BS and frankly the above is mostly BS if not all.

The frank point is if you are shooting a bullet a bit smaller in diameter then a 32acp a bit faster from a pistol then a 9mm. If you aren't shooting hollow points in your pistol your just being ignorant of good self defense. That said average BALL ammo for a 9mm hits 70cms and the 45 hits 65 cms(around 27"). That's over penetration compared to your round of a whoping 16" according to most true ballistic experts.

As for its hollow-point capabilities..... 11-13 which is just average... with a even smaller diameter then most. Wheres the advantage?

Lastly if they are hitting 1700 then they are lieing, the electronics aren't calibrated, or its over-pressured which is dangerous and stupid and wont do much better for this round. Well maybe its out of a rifle which would make sense, but is irrelevant data for pistol choices.

FMJ 7.6x25


Wolf HP 7.62x25


Hornady XTP 7.62x25


Now you tell me is it that amazing?
the round isnt meant for hollow points, its meant to go through armor. it DOES shoot flatter than a nine, thats the only reason i would be interested in it in ar platform over the nine. i didnt say i was shooting one 500yds, i said i was comparing how far the nine dropped as oppose to the 7.62, i was just watching dirt fly, not realy checking accuracy, i would say this was maybe 100yds, the 7.62tok has a longer case and smaller bulletso of coarse the nin DID drop more. NO I WOULDNT CARRY A 7.62x25 AS A DEFFENSIVE WEOPON, or a primary home defense pistol for that matter, this would just be a toy, or i would love to have that AR upper. more ammo, plus cheap ammo, HIGH VELOCITY especialy in a 16in brl. just sounds like the AR could have a practical use, a 7.62 pistol? not so much. though a 7.62x25 glock would be awesome!!
Old 05-10-2010, 09:31 AM
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My choice is the Makarov round in a CZ83. Most bang for your buck. If you were shooting out of a long gun the I would take the 7.62x25. It depends on if you consider over penatration a good thing or a liability.
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