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Old 03-17-2010, 10:13 PM
punkwaffen punkwaffen is offline
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Default Best non-firearm weapon?



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I was thinking of picking up some pepper spray and an expandable baton. Any better suggestions or suggestions for products I mentioned?
Old 03-17-2010, 10:28 PM
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Are we talking hand to hand combat, everyday carry, all out fighting, or what, exactly?

My suggestions, assuming training and skill in usege: Knife; Baton, spray, or kongo; crossbow or long bow.
Old 03-17-2010, 10:34 PM
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Just to carry around. Mostly as defense items only to be used when needed or pushed to use them.
Old 03-17-2010, 10:42 PM
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And expandable baton or ASP Baton as it is often known, requires official training before one can be used, carried or owned. This may vary from state to state and you should check local laws in your state prior to purchasing such and item.

When I lived in Utah, I checked into this and was told that I would have to receive proper training before I could carry or use one. Reason for the training is because there are only certain places on the body that you should strike with an ASP. Any other locations may be lethal, or so I was told. Unless lethal force is required to save your life, improper use of an asp may lead you to jail time.

This is just from what info I found when I was living in Utah. Again I advise you to check your state statues regarding something like this.
Old 03-17-2010, 10:45 PM
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I am in Vermont so I dunno. How would I research it? If I EVER had to use it, I would never use it on sensitive areas. Well, I would at least avoid them at all costs. Ends of arms and legs would be my target. Avoiding elbows, knees, etc as best I could. However, the pepper spray would be my first line of defense, the baton my second, and my badass self the last.
Old 03-17-2010, 10:46 PM
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I have a collapsible baton, but more important than your weapon of choice is your skill with it. Whatever you choose, whether it be a gun, knife, pointy stick or your bare hands, take the time and energy to learn how to use it with skill. Preferably from an expert.
Old 03-17-2010, 10:50 PM
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Other than a knife, I have a trekking staff and if you remove the rubber tip it has a 1" carbide spike. Ouch!
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Old 03-17-2010, 10:51 PM
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I would suggest an expandable baton, but practice with it as short wands are not intuitive weapons. Here in Michigan the laws are a little different. Anything carried with the intent to do bodily harm is considered a deadly weapon.

As a joke, I used to keep a Spork in the back of my belt while teaching my Hapkido classes.

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Old 03-17-2010, 10:56 PM
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Baton illegal in TN without training certificate, which has to be renewed periodically.

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Originally Posted by punkwaffen View Post
I am in Vermont so I dunno. How would I research it? If I EVER had to use it..
VT state statues:
http://www.leg.state.vt.us/statutes/statutes2.htm
Or ask cop. Probably best, state cops, like Highway Patrol

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Originally Posted by punkwaffen View Post
I would never use it on sensitive areas. ...
That's absurd, sensitive area is of course where you SHOULD use one.

Are you too young to carry a gun, or what?

- OS
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Old 03-17-2010, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oh Shoot View Post
Baton illegal in TN without training certificate, which has to be renewed periodically.



VT state statues:
http://www.leg.state.vt.us/statutes/statutes2.htm
Or ask cop. Probably best, state cops, like Highway Patrol


That's absurd, sensitive area is of course where you SHOULD use one.

- OS
Not absurd at all. I do not want to kill anyone, just injure and/or stop them. Sensitive areas will cause serious injury or death.
Old 03-17-2010, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by punkwaffen View Post
Avoiding elbows, knees, etc as best I could. However, the pepper spray would be my first line of defense, the baton my second, and my badass self the last.
When I was researching this, and talking to law enforcement, elbows and back of knees were target areas. Never the chest area, or head area, as that was a lethal strike.

Quote:
§ 4001. Slung shot, blackjack, brass knuckles-Use or possession

A person who uses a slung shot, blackjack, brass knuckles or similar weapon against another person, or attempts so to do, or who possesses a slung shot, blackjack, brass knuckles, or similar weapon, with intent so to use it, shall be imprisoned not more than five years or fined not more than $1,000.00 or both. The provisions of this section do not apply to a law enforcement officer as to the possession and use of a blackjack, billy club or night stick.
Src - http://www.leg.state.vt.us/statutes/...&Section=04001
Since and ASP is a similar weapon close to a blackjack, possession of an ASP may or may not apply to this statue. In regards to this statue I seek legal advice to see if an ASP would be considered a similar weapon in the eyes of the law.

This is what I turned up in my short search. While interpretation of law may vary from court to court and legal official to legal official, unless otherwise previously agreed upon in regards to the interpretation you may or may not be able to possess one. Since I am not a lawyer nor make any claims to official interpretation of this statue I again advise you to seek legal counsel regarding this statue.

Title 13 Chapter 85 Section 4001 in its entirety in regards to weapons for Vermont can be found here. http://www.leg.state.vt.us/statutes/...13&Chapter=085

This is what sucks about laws may laws take away our rights to defend ourselves and when state expect use to hand over our safety to the officers of the law they sometimes overlook the fact that it often takes an average of 5 - 20 min for and officer to respond, and in a life treating situation that is just too long. I prefer to defend my life rather then waiting for help.
Old 03-17-2010, 11:05 PM
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For everyday carry you should stay as legal as you can. It is real easy to go from being a victim to being a criminal perpetrator once lawyers get involved. Everything that you do that is not legal and presentable as the actions of a prudent citizen leaves you liable for depiction as being aggressive and belligerent. This can result in your criminal prosecution or in a civil lawsuit that can cost you big time.

The first step in defending yourself is to develop Situational Awareness. Knowing what is happening or about to happen around you and responding to it, will change the way you are seen by others. Predators like easy prey. They generally do not like to attack those apt to fight back. Look aware. Look confident. Don't look challenging. Avoid eye contact until conflict appears immenent. Avoid dark alleys, walk near the curb rather than close to the buildings. If possible, go out of your way to avoid passing loitering groups of gang members.

As for the defensive equipment, if you are not highly skilled and trained in its use, you are better off not having it. Criminals have little concern for the law or its consequences and will almost certainly be better equipped than you.

Avoidance is the best pollicy. For those situations where conflict is unavoidable, get the training, then select the equipment to fit your skill and lifestyle.
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Old 03-17-2010, 11:18 PM
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3 D Cell Maglite- legal in all localities, concealable- explainable and hits like a tornado! Also a good flashlight also!
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Old 03-17-2010, 11:23 PM
punkwaffen punkwaffen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyyuppie View Post
3 D Cell Maglite- legal in all localities, concealable- explainable and hits like a tornado! Also a good flashlight also!
I am looking to upgrade from this setup.
Old 03-17-2010, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oh Shoot View Post
That's absurd, sensitive area is of course where you SHOULD use one.

Are you too young to carry a gun, or what?

- OS
I agree that in a life threatening situation deadly force should be authorized any any means necessary to achieve this should be used. However some states require that you attempt escape or before even using deadly force. I am glad that South Carolina is not one of them.

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As a general matter, before using deadly force, even in self-defense, you have a duty to retreat in the following circumstances:

1.

on a public street or highway, even when in own automobile. State v. McGee, 185 S.C. 184, 190, 193 S.E. 303, 306 (1937).
2.

in a store where the public is invited. State v. Peeples, 126 S.C. 422, 120 S.E. 361 (1923).


As a general matter, before using deadly force, even for self-defense, there are situations in which you have no duty to retreat. These include:

1.

in addition to in your home, there is no duty to retreat within your home’s curtilage. State v. Jackson, supra, or beyond the curtilage. State v. Quick, 138 S.C. 147, 135 S.E. 800 (1926).
2.

in your place of business, even if the aggressor also has a right to be there. State v. Kennedy, 143 S.C. 318, 141 S.E. 559 (1928).
3.

if a guest in home of another unless required to leave by the householder. State v. Osborne, 202 S.C. 463, 25 S.E.2d 492 (1942).
4.

where attacked in your “club room”. [“A man is no more bound to allow himself to be run out of his rest room than his workshop.”]
5.

where both parties own the premises, neither has the duty to retreat where the other is the aggressor. State v. Gibbs, 113 S.C. 256, 102 S.E. 333.
6.

Where both live in the same home, neither has the duty to retreat if the other is the aggressor. State v. Grantham, 224 S.C. 41, 77 S.E.2d 291 (1953).
7.

Where both are guests in the same home, neither has the duty to retreat if the other is the aggressor. State v. Smith, 226 S.C. 418, 85 S.E.2d 409 (1955).
8.

Where both are fellow workers on same job site, neither has the duty to retreat if the other is the aggressor. State v. Gordon, 128 S.C. 422, 122 S.E. 501 (1924).
9.

you need not retreat “if to do so would apparently increase [your] danger.” State v. McGee, 185 S.C. 184, 190, 193 S.E. 303, 306 (1937).

Src - http://www.sled.sc.gov/Reciprocity.aspx?MenuID=CWP#2
That is what SLED says. State Statue says

Quote:
Title 16 Article 6 Section 16-11-420

The General Assembly finds that no person or victim of crime should be required to surrender his personal safety to a criminal, nor should a person or victim be required to needlessly retreat in the face of intrusion or attack.
The last one that says retreating would increase my danger means that if I can't safely retreat I am authorized to used deadly force.

There are others things but I won't post at lot of info that you can't really use in your state. Researching laws is sometimes a time consuming process. But something I think everyone should know or learn how to do. Know your laws and your rights, but like everyone always says when the SHTF and the officer is asking you questions STFU until you have a lawyer, cause otherwise you may hang yourself.
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Old 03-17-2010, 11:40 PM
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You have to realize that most States have laws that intend to equalize an encounter. If you use more force than your opponent, you have broken the law, regardless what weapon or spork you used.

If you win an encounter, you are likely to have some answering to do in front of a Judge. However, if you lose an encounter, you may have some answering to do to your grieving family. Not a tough choice in my eyes.
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Old 03-17-2010, 11:46 PM
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Default Regular household/car weapons

Keep a bat in your car. Also a tire iron at arm's reach works. For personal carry a heavy sap type object works well ie leather punch or quarter roll. A good SHTF weapon is the crossbow. SBD.
Old 03-17-2010, 11:54 PM
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I saw on tv just holding a car key inbetween your middle and index finger can be very effective. One hit to the cheek can peirce the eye socket. Very useful and you already carry your keys with you.
Old 03-18-2010, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CowboyPride View Post
And expandable baton or ASP Baton as it is often known, requires official training before one can be used, carried or owned. This may vary from state to state and you should check local laws in your state prior to purchasing such and item.
You can purchase an ASP or other extendable batons online, there is no need to go through any type of "official training before one can be used, carried or owned."

There are some places, like Texas, where you cannot carry them on a Texas Concealed Handgun License even if you were to go through ASP's Program or some other training program for batons, telescoping or otherwise unless you have a Guard Card for that State.

It is such a hodgepodge of laws, it's all over the place. But you can purchase them online.

Quote:
When I lived in Utah, I checked into this and was told that I would have to receive proper training before I could carry or use one. Reason for the training is because there are only certain places on the body that you should strike with an ASP. Any other locations may be lethal, or so I was told. Unless lethal force is required to save your life, improper use of an asp may lead you to jail time.
Targeting the head, all of it as well as the neck area, again, all of it is lethal force according to ASP as well as other baton training programs. ASP also includes the subclavian area, the collarbones, which will fly in the face of a lot of martial arts training where that area is a preferred striking target. The reason being is, the clavicles can be broken and the sharp tips driven into either the subclavian vein or artery or the top of the lung, or all of the above.

So, you would only be justified in striking those areas if it were a lethal force situation.

Quote:
This is just from what info I found when I was living in Utah. Again I advise you to check your state statues regarding something like this.
Yes, everyone should. And they should do their level best to also obtain real information away from law enforcement who excel at talking Citizens out of owning and carrying various weapons while protecting their own access to them.
Old 03-18-2010, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rippelz4me View Post
I saw on tv just holding a car key inbetween your middle and index finger can be very effective. One hit to the cheek can peirce the eye socket. Very useful and you already carry your keys with you.
That's a really inefficient way to hold a key to use it as a weapon. Just hold it in a slightly modified way from common usage so you are holding it tighter and then go straight for the face if the key is your choice. Even if you don't believe that, you should take this into consideration - in a self-defense situation, don't risk destroying your escape vehicle by bending the key on someone's facial bones or skull, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adamfury View Post
Keep a bat in your car. Also a tire iron at arm's reach works. For personal carry a heavy sap type object works well ie leather punch or quarter roll. A good SHTF weapon is the crossbow. SBD.
Crossbows have their place in a survival battery but you have your impact weapons both long, intermediate and close range in there with a crossbow.
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