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Old 01-08-2017, 04:24 PM
Revmgt Revmgt is offline
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This thread explains it well

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=23&t=591832

Sorry, I couldn't find a link with pictures
Old 01-09-2017, 01:42 AM
carolyn62058 carolyn62058 is offline
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You all get very technical and show that physics classes were not wasted on you. I rely on experience. I got my license in 1974. The first few cars I drove had steel wheels and I hit some BAD pot holes with those steel wheels. Bad enough to cause front end damage-- but those steel wheels were never damaged so badly that they had to be replaced. Then I got a brand new car that had aluminum wheels. In the 10 years I owned it, I had to have 2 wheels replaced and repairs made. Both were considered "accidents" and insurance paid for those new aluminum rims. The aluminum rims had chunks broke off and cracks too. I finally got an old 4 wheel drive truck and very high on my "truck to-do list" is buying steel rims. WHY because experience taught me that aluminum wheels are brittle and they crack and crumble--they are pretty but they are junk.
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Old 01-09-2017, 08:10 PM
kilowatt2736 kilowatt2736 is offline
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IMHO a BOV would be built as simple as possible ...no computers, plenty of spare parts like points caps etc or elec ignition modules etc if you choose them. Included in that perception which follows my personal desire to keep things K.I.S.S.
Therefore steel wheels, and plenty of spares.
In a perfect scenario all my vehicles would use same lug pattern, if not exact same wheel and tire size for optimum interchangeability along with same air, oil, & fuel filters along with same oil, grade of fuel.
My goal being max versatility, ability to swap parts and minimize stocking a bunch of different parts.
Saw a custom 4X4 on TV that had common u-joints (1 kind for everything) and common size of axle shafts etc. in addition to same leaf springs front and rear.
Industry is (it seems) never motivated for much overbuilding or interchangeability probably cuz its in their best interest (profit) or possibly some weight savings ... which for SHTF is easy to pass on (IMHO) as a very lofty goal.
Many parts don't fail that often but keeping a multitude of different spares is for all possibilities is easier to do if there is a lot of commonality.
Just my opinion and one of many lofty goals.
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Old 01-30-2017, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kilowatt2736 View Post
IMHO a BOV would be built as simple as possible ...no computers, plenty of spare parts like points caps etc or elec ignition modules etc if you choose them. Included in that perception which follows my personal desire to keep things K.I.S.S.
Therefore steel wheels, and plenty of spares.
In a perfect scenario all my vehicles would use same lug pattern, if not exact same wheel and tire size for optimum interchangeability along with same air, oil, & fuel filters along with same oil, grade of fuel.
My goal being max versatility, ability to swap parts and minimize stocking a bunch of different parts.
Saw a custom 4X4 on TV that had common u-joints (1 kind for everything) and common size of axle shafts etc. in addition to same leaf springs front and rear.
Industry is (it seems) never motivated for much overbuilding or interchangeability probably cuz its in their best interest (profit) or possibly some weight savings ... which for SHTF is easy to pass on (IMHO) as a very lofty goal.
Many parts don't fail that often but keeping a multitude of different spares is for all possibilities is easier to do if there is a lot of commonality.
Just my opinion and one of many lofty goals.
I did a lot of that when I rebuilt my old flat fender a few years back.



The suspension I built uses the same spring at all four corners. A 1310 u-joint will fit any driveshaft location, and the cross in the front axle is the same also. When I converted the rear axle to full float I used front spindles. Now the wheel bearings, bearing hub, and even the disc brake conversion I built all use the same parts at all the corners.

It lasted 70+ years the 1st time around, hopefully it will go another 70 now!
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Old 01-31-2017, 05:21 AM
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Mythbusters did a show on wheels one time. The strongest if remember was magnesium wheels.
Old 02-02-2017, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by dyingslower View Post

It will not.
This is a myth promulgated by off road shows and magazines trying to keep sponsorships for high-priced braking products. It sounds right, but is not true. Or, more accurately, the things they say about 'added mass' is tacitly true, but is not the whole truth.

"Rotating mass" in acceleration only really applies to engine parts. Everyone else is just along for the ride.

And in stopping, the entire mass of the vehicle is being arrested. The size, shape, and weight of the wheel/tire assembly is just more (or less) mass and nothing more than that. Adding 50lbs of weight in wheels is no different than adding a 50lb sandbag as far as the brakes are concerned.

Remember, the biggest variable in any vehicle is the DRIVER.

But in answer to the OP, on a Bugout Vehicle, for a Survival Bugout and not some 'happy fun personal bugout', I definitely have steel wheels. They're strong. They mend. And now that you got me thinking about it, I might just add some bolsters to them. Thanks.



DS
I'm gonna have to ruin your day with some math. Its really pretty basic math, so sit tight.

The amount of energy required to accelerate a rotating body of mass increases exponentially as the speed increases.

How far away from the axis of rotation that the mass is concentrated is also impactful because it is multiplied by the 2nd exponent of angular velocity.

To spin a wheel requires energy. The amount of energy required to accelerate a wheel to a certain rate of rotation is as follows

(.5) x (moment of inertia) x (Angular velocity^2) = Energy required to spin the wheel to that particular angular velocity.

If you don't believe me, get on an old school exercise bike that just has the big heavy wheel and brake pads dragging across it to provide resistance. Turn the resistance down to zero. The big heavy wheel provides quite a bit of resistance until you hit your top speed.
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Old 02-02-2017, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by carolyn62058 View Post
You all get very technical and show that physics classes were not wasted on you. I rely on experience. I got my license in 1974. The first few cars I drove had steel wheels and I hit some BAD pot holes with those steel wheels. Bad enough to cause front end damage-- but those steel wheels were never damaged so badly that they had to be replaced. Then I got a brand new car that had aluminum wheels. In the 10 years I owned it, I had to have 2 wheels replaced and repairs made. Both were considered "accidents" and insurance paid for those new aluminum rims. The aluminum rims had chunks broke off and cracks too. I finally got an old 4 wheel drive truck and very high on my "truck to-do list" is buying steel rims. WHY because experience taught me that aluminum wheels are brittle and they crack and crumble--they are pretty but they are junk.
Anybody who thinks that aluminum is a stronger material than steel was definitely a waste of a physics class. I work in a structural dynamics and statics testing laboratory in the automotive industry.

You also can't simply say that one metal is "stronger" than another. There are different types of strengths that metals have.

I'll get you all started on the basics, but you can absolutely not just simply say that "aluminum is stronger than steel end of story."

Here, I will help get some of you started on the basics.

•Yield strength measures the lowest stress that will result in permanent deformation.
•Compressive strength measures the amount of squeezing stress that will cause defects.
•Tensile strength measures the amount of pulling stress that will cause defects.
•Impact strength measures the amount of impact energy that will cause a fracture.

I always want you all to go on google and type in the words "Fatigue Limit".

Here is a link to some more of the most basic basics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strength_of_materials
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Old 02-02-2017, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by TacticalFarmer View Post
I'm gonna have to ruin your day with some math. Its really pretty basic math, so sit tight.

The amount of energy required to accelerate a rotating body of mass increases exponentially as the speed increases.

How far away from the axis of rotation that the mass is concentrated is also impactful because it is multiplied by the 2nd exponent of angular velocity.

To spin a wheel requires energy. The amount of energy required to accelerate a wheel to a certain rate of rotation is as follows

(.5) x (moment of inertia) x (Angular velocity^2) = Energy required to spin the wheel to that particular angular velocity.

If you don't believe me, get on an old school exercise bike that just has the big heavy wheel and brake pads dragging across it to provide resistance. Turn the resistance down to zero. The big heavy wheel provides quite a bit of resistance until you hit your top speed.
Technically correct, but irrelevant in the current context. Might matter to an engineer building an F1 car.
Old 02-02-2017, 04:45 PM
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I've bent steel wheels. And I've bent aluminum wheels. Generalizing outcomes based on generalized labels of what stuff is made of is dumb. All steel wheels are not the same. All aluminum alloy wheels are not the same.

To the OP's point:

I currently have no vehicles with steel wheels. Why? Because they didn't come with them. Because I'm not rock crawling to work every day. The stock aluminum wheels on my Jeep and on my Toyota seem to be just dandy.
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Old 02-02-2017, 07:48 PM
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I always thought aluminum wheels were weak, until this happend.



Twice. Within a 10 mile stretch of desert road. I only had one spare and I was 40 miles from cell service, 60 miles from a town. I ended up driving the 40 miles on just the rim at a very slow speed, but it made it.

When I finally took the wheel to the tire store they mounted a new tire on it and it's been running ever since. This totally proved to me that aluminum wheels are just fine on my BOV. I prefer them now due to the weight savings they give.
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Old 02-09-2017, 06:33 PM
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I am impressed but I am still getting steel wheels. Perhaps the aluminum wheels they put on Mazdas at the factory are poorly made and that is why my Mazda Protege had 2 cracked wheels and threw chunks of aluminum. This is a picture of a car like the one I owned for 10 years. https://www.pinterest.com/pin/531072981036704813/

Last edited by carolyn62058; 02-09-2017 at 06:36 PM.. Reason: Added a sentence to explain the picture.
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Old 02-09-2017, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacticalFarmer View Post
Anybody who thinks that aluminum is a stronger material than steel was definitely a waste of a physics class. I work in a structural dynamics and statics testing laboratory in the automotive industry.

You also can't simply say that one metal is "stronger" than another. There are different types of strengths that metals have.

I'll get you all started on the basics, but you can absolutely not just simply say that "aluminum is stronger than steel end of story."

Here, I will help get some of you started on the basics.

•Yield strength measures the lowest stress that will result in permanent deformation.
•Compressive strength measures the amount of squeezing stress that will cause defects.
•Tensile strength measures the amount of pulling stress that will cause defects.
•Impact strength measures the amount of impact energy that will cause a fracture.

I always want you all to go on google and type in the words "Fatigue Limit".

Here is a link to some more of the most basic basics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strength_of_materials
Perhaps the wheels on my Protege were made with "bad" aluminum alloy. Not all aluminum wheels are made the same, right? So how can the average joe or jane figure out which wheels are the best and strongest?

Last edited by carolyn62058; 02-09-2017 at 06:44 PM.. Reason: correct a spelling error
Old 02-09-2017, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DadeMurphy View Post
To the OP's point:

I currently have no vehicles with steel wheels. Why? Because they didn't come with them. Because I'm not rock crawling to work every day. The stock aluminum wheels on my Jeep and on my Toyota seem to be just dandy.
Rock crawling is child's play compared to Michigan potholes. Only New York can beat 'em for breadth and depth. Pennsylvania comes third. Massachusetts is top five, I'm sure.

One thing about alloys that hasn't been mentioned yet. If you don't retorque the lug nuts within 50 miles or so of having had the wheel off, the nuts can loosen and fall right off. Then the wheel falls off. Happened to me in the middle of the night in western New Jersey, with a full load in the van, (I was moving).

As I pointed out earlier, most aluminum wheels supplied by the vehicle makers are cast. Casting alloys and forging alloys are miles apart on tensile and ductility. And cost, which is why OEM wheels are cast. The casting process is much more likely to leave flaws in the metal than forging. This is why aircraft builders will take a 400 lb block of wrought aluminum and whittle out a 40 lb. part from it. A casting would be much, much cheaper, but not nearly as strong or reliable.

If you can afford forged alloy wheels, have at it. If you've had an alloy wheel break, it was very, very probably cast.
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Old 02-13-2017, 02:38 AM
carolyn62058 carolyn62058 is offline
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so-- a forged alloy wheel is tougher than a cast wheel. Are wheels labelled as "forged alloy" or cast alloy, so that people can choose? Looking at my alloy wheels on my truck and they don't have anything on them even hints at what they are made of and how the wheel was made. BTW -- should always tighten up the lug nuts a few days after rotating the tires. Finally --have you all seen the pot holes in Maryland and West Virginia? could lose a whole VW Bug in one!
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Old 02-13-2017, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by carolyn62058 View Post
Perhaps the wheels on my Protege were made with "bad" aluminum alloy. Not all aluminum wheels are made the same, right? So how can the average joe or jane figure out which wheels are the best and strongest?
Correct. Forged wheels are generally stronger in all regards. Another thing that affects the wheel's strength is size of the rim and the size of the outside diameter of the tire.

A wheel that is likely to survive impacting forces such as hitting a rock or pothole is one with the following traits:
- Steel construction
- Small rim diameter
- Large outside diameter tire

The tire will roll more easily over objects due to the bigger diameter. Think about hitting a bump on the sidewalk with a skateboard wheel vs a bicycle wheel. Large diameter helps the ability to roll over things more gradually.

The tire will also absorb more of the impact if there is more sidewall to deflect during the impact. Its like backup suspension.

The steel wheels have a better fatigue limit. Say you had an aluminum rim and a steel rim that were made to have the exact same strengths. After 10 years of driving in totally identical conditions, the steel rim would be measurably stronger than the aluminum rim would be. Metals degrade as load cycles are applied to them. Aluminum degrades toward failure more steeply than steel does due to load.
Old 02-13-2017, 10:50 PM
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There have been some pretty nice forged aluminum wheels from OEMs over the years that you can find floating around....

1994-96 Ford F150/Bronco had a nice Alcoa 15x7.5, 5 on 5.5, 3.63" backspacing forged aluminum wheel option.

2003-2010ish Dodge 2500/3500 4wd trucks that had the 'polished' factory wheel option are actually the same 17x8, 8 on 6.5, 6" backspacing forged aluminum wheel that was offered with the PowerWagon package.

There are others...
Old 02-14-2017, 12:10 AM
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Torque required to change speed as it relates to rotational weight is immaterial, for a daily driver. The weight makes much less difference than the total diameter. And the weight will matter as a function of how much is at the outside. Which will be a linear amount. Diameter increase will take an exponentially greater amount of force to achieve the same acceleration. But as angular momentum is built, it is stored energy contributing to the steady achieved cruising speed of the vehicle.

Mathematically we can view this as P-all.

As a viewed from a strength aspect, there will be compressive and tensile forces acting on the wheel. Without delving too much into metallurgy, and manufacturing differences, we can roughly say that pound for pound, there is not too much difference. So if we put about 2x the volume of aluminum alloy that a steel wheel has we would achieve an equivalent strength.

For toughness and ductile flexibility, steel wins. It will deform before it ultimately yields, and has more plasticity.

Steel seems to stick to the rubber a bit better, too. Whereas a slight rust only seems to seal it better.

For me, it seems pretty straightforward that steel is a better choice for resiliency and capacity for punishment. In the grand scheme of handling, and weight, it's a very small percentage of difference.

Handling and unsprung weight would make a bigger difference on a bike, but as the complete front differential with wheels and tires attached is somewhere around North of 800 lbs., I won't stress over the difference that 40 pounds will make.
Old 02-14-2017, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Tactical Lever View Post

Steel seems to stick to the rubber a bit better, too. Whereas a slight rust only seems to seal it better.
I've noticed many more issues at low tire pressure with steel wheels vs aluminum wheels. Most steel wheels have a spun formed safety lip that is much more rounded. This let's the bead work off the rim easier. Most aluminum rims seem to have the safety bead machined during another operation.

I've tried just about every bead retention trick in the book over the years. The best bang for the buck ended up being two to three wraps of good quality gorilla tape over the safety bead but only half way across the bead flat. That seems to be fairly good down to about 3psi. It increases the diameter of the safety bead and rim slightly. The tire generally tries to peel the tape off in shear. With good tape that takes a decent amount of force.

We have tried bead sealant, rubber cement, roof sealant, screws, salt water, etc.

Eventually bead locks became more common and affordable. They are superior to all the home brew methods, but have their own set of quirks. It is still uncommon to see steel beadlocks today. For a bit they where more common, but I would say 90 percent or more of the aftermarket production is an aluminum version.

Chrome steel wheels are the absolute worst for bead retention and spinning the wheel in the tire.

Why does this matter? There is no better way to improve the performance of a vehicle in adverse conditions than adjusting the tire pressure. It can get really amazing in the low single digits....
Old 02-16-2017, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metcalf View Post
I've noticed many more issues at low tire pressure with steel wheels vs aluminum wheels. Most steel wheels have a spun formed safety lip that is much more rounded. This let's the bead work off the rim easier. Most aluminum rims seem to have the safety bead machined during another operation.

I've tried just about every bead retention trick in the book over the years. The best bang for the buck ended up being two to three wraps of good quality gorilla tape over the safety bead but only half way across the bead flat. That seems to be fairly good down to about 3psi. It increases the diameter of the safety bead and rim slightly. The tire generally tries to peel the tape off in shear. With good tape that takes a decent amount of force.

We have tried bead sealant, rubber cement, roof sealant, screws, salt water, etc.

Eventually bead locks became more common and affordable. They are superior to all the home brew methods, but have their own set of quirks. It is still uncommon to see steel beadlocks today. For a bit they where more common, but I would say 90 percent or more of the aftermarket production is an aluminum version.

Chrome steel wheels are the absolute worst for bead retention and spinning the wheel in the tire.

Why does this matter? There is no better way to improve the performance of a vehicle in adverse conditions than adjusting the tire pressure. It can get really amazing in the low single digits....
I don't imagine chrome does much favours where a little "grip" is desirable.

My next set will probably be steel bead locks, if I find a set reasonable.
Old 02-16-2017, 08:07 AM
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Ive broken and chipped a lot of alloy wheels in my days on the track.

I would go forged billet (or just billet) steel wheels (either solid or the hole pattern, not spokes) with a composite run flat tire inserts. Though this will be heavy and ultimately sacrifice some 0-60 and handling, it will ensure you get to where you are going.

The inserts run around $600-800 set.


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