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So...about that "accuracy", "reliability", and "stopping power" thing.

49K views 134 replies 92 participants last post by  SwifTst 
#1 · (Edited)
So...about that "accuracy", "reliability", and "stopping power" thing.

Warning; Long ass post. I hope to help anyone with this thread, not bash.

You know, I get a little frustrated with the whole "I shoot .5 moa" or "I killed Sasquatch at 1,500,000 yards with a .22" or blah blah blah. Almost none of this matters as much as you think, especially for SHTF and combat.

Before I go any further, For the record and a little background, my go to rifle is a PTR91k. My next, truck gun, and family handouts are all AK47s. This might make me biased, so what. Unlike a lot of bias people I've actually owned what I am bias against. (Ar15s) As far as the traits listed in the title, I recommend at the very LEAST a 5.56 or 5.45 rifle. That's at the absolute bare minimum. I recommend .308 personally.

but....to be frank....

What matters more than any ballistic table or myth is what YOU are comfortable with, and what YOU don't mind humping around, and what YOU trust with YOUR life. If you trust it, and you chose to carry it, that's YOUR preference. I'm not going to argue why I chose a MBR, or why you need to sell your AR.

So if you have no doubts about your rifle, and your abilities with said rifle, then you shouldn't pay any mind to anything, I, or anybody says about it. If you do, maybe you need to reexamine your choice. Consider your surroundings, possible and likely combat situations and your abilities.

Just make sure of a few things, no matter what tool you carry;



*Zero your rifle.


This to me, is common sense. But some people still don't mind hitting minute of barn at 50m. Also, check your zero from time to time, or after adjustments. Also, a lot of people don't even know how to aim their rifle. Proper sight alignment can mean a lot. Use your manual, or the google search bar, somewhere over there ---->

Here's some over simplified and all inclusive links.
(Russian sight alignment; http://www.ak-47.net/images/sight2.gif
American sight alignment; http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...sight_alignment_FM_3-22.9_(23-9)_Fig_4-17.png

AK47 zero; http://www.ak-47.net/ak47/sightingin.html
AR15 zero; http://ar15zeroing.com/)

Even you AK guys. There's a AK sight tool that can get your rifle 3moa or much better @ 100 w/ practice and time. That is more than enough, as, believe it or not, a 3moa group @100 is widely considered combat acceptable for M16s and M4s.

(AK47 sight tool; http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/49630-6.html )



*Learn your rifle, inside and out.


If you don't know how to completely disassemble your rifle for complete inspection or cleaning, learn. Get proficient with field stripping and cleaning specifically. If you are in the s**t and don't clean good enough, fast enough, you might get in some trouble. I also suggest learning how your rifle works, researching some common issues that could arise, and learning how to trouble shoot. You can't take your rifle to a smith while being chased by evil nazi zombies... or the batf, same thing.

AR15; http://www.ar15.com/content/guides/maintenance/
AK47; http://www.ar15.com/content/guides/assembly/akFieldStripping/ , http://www.guerrillagunsmith.com/akdetailed.htm

*Know your gear
Don't fear looking like a retard to your wife. Dress up in your gear, and practice changing mags, or drawing your ka-bar. Just do it. Learn how you like them situated, and keep them there. Practice it often. You don't want to be bobbling mags around while getting shot at. Having familiarity with where stuff is, and how to get it out is pretty important.

*Know your limitations

I really hope you know how to use your rifle, but also realize exposing yourself, and your position to fire a 450m shot with an AR15 might not be the best idea. Learn the max range of your rifle and what you are comfortable with. Without having to spend 10 minutes on a bench adjusting scopes or steadying on a sandbag. For most people about 250m is pretty much it, maybe a little further if you have a scoped rifle. (and know your rifle, your ammo, your weather conditions and your bullet drop.) Face it, most of us probably have no clue. Hell, most of us probably don't know 200m from 400m anyways. Practice range estimation. Use known distances, like a football field to practice. (Go to one, look from goal line to goal line, some people are truly taken in by how far and difficult a shot that can be.)

*Carry at least 120 rounds of anything.


For me, (Hk g3 pattern) that's 5 mags carried +1 inserted. To me, that's pretty light. I'm a big dude though. Plan on carrying a bunch of survival stuff too, so don't have 1K of .308 strapped on you. You'll get bogged down. No tealing how much other crap you will need to survive aside from ammo. Be sensible. I carry 8 mags+1 at the MAX unless I KNOW I will be in an extended fight with no resupply....(If I knew this I think my chances are pretty nill anyway.)

If you are like me, and think "rifleman" first 120-180rds is nothing to laugh at. If the S has HTF I sincerely hope you don't need 500rds in one firefight, and I also hope you have a base, rally point, cache or depot with more supplies.

*Clean your rifle
I don't care if you can shoot 10,000,000 rounds of wolf through your ar15 (or AK) before it's outstanding reliability becomes an issue. Clean your rifle when you can, and know that your accuracy will diminish a little after a few rounds. Unlike at the range, you can't swab it out every other shot to hit that sub-moa group in the middle of a firefight. Get familiar with your accuracy after your barrel heats up, and gets fouled.

*Learn how to shoot combat style.

This is what i want to stress, if you ignored anything else, at least understand this. Here's to you Mr. I hit dimes at 200m and will be a "sniper" if the SHTF...

You're not going to have a comfortable bench, with a few sandbags in combat. Sorry, your .25moa rifle isn't much better than my 2moa battle rifle if you can only use yours on a steady platform.

I suggest not ever shooting from a bench except to zero. Learn to shoot correctly. Learn to shoot unsupported from prone, crouched, and standing. Practice breath control. Make it all second nature, if not, when the **** starts flying you will forget everything and do whatever feels right.

The importance of practice; making some initially uncomfortable things turn into comfortable muscle memory. Just shooting some paper is not suitable training. Especially not from a bench. Learn to go without bi-pods too.

A decent start is reading some simple FMs or finding a former soldier... (fm 3-22.9, section II works ok...)

I hope this helps someone...

(upd.) Also, while this might sound like "duh" to some or maybe weird to others, learn to shoot with both eyes open, and force yourself to keep them open while shooting. (Wear EYE PRO) Not only does this take all of the fear, and anticipation away from firing, but also allows you to have eyes on target up until the very last moment, and be able to track quick follow ups. (It will take what seems like decades off of your next follow up shot.) You'd be surprised how many people get scared, or anxious blink, fire, and then repeat. Yea, be honest.

-H&C
 
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#2 ·
Good post. You´re absolutely right about many things. I agree about the benchrest shooting.

Pfff shooting is hard. I'm training prone unsupported and after training every week a year long, I can hit a 5 or 6 inch plate at 100m fairly reliably (shooting AK). Shooting in unsupported standing position is hard. First shot is okay but then fatigue kicks in and you start shaking and stuff.

Am I the only one who finds it hard?

Is signed by Wolfe, who is dedicated but not very talented :-(
 
#3 ·
If you start shaking that fast you need to adjust your shooting position. A proper position should be fairly comfortable, but very sturdy and with good support. If you can try to find someone in the military (infantry) to show you. Basically, going from the ground up you want your feet a little more than shoulder width apart and either in line with each other or slightly offset with your weak side foot forward. Then you want your knees slightly bent, stick your butt out a little bit to create a lumbar curve in your spine. Your elbows should be in tight, almost resting on your chest.

It's kinda hard to describe over the internet, but once you get a good position down, you can move into other positions, shooting on the move, combat drills, and more advance techniques. It will probably feel a little uncomfortable at first, but with practice it becomes second nature.
 
#19 · (Edited)
If you start shaking that fast you need to adjust your shooting position. A proper position should be fairly comfortable, but very sturdy and with good support. If you can try to find someone in the military (infantry) to show you. Basically, going from the ground up you want your feet a little more than shoulder width apart and either in line with each other or slightly offset with your weak side foot forward. Then you want your knees slightly bent, stick your butt out a little bit to create a lumbar curve in your spine. Your elbows should be in tight, almost resting on your chest..
Sorry, but that's all wrong. You never want to rely on your muscles to shoot with( bending your knees?), you want use your skeleton, which means locking you knees( your lower body should be a solid base, a turret), relaxing your muscles, rest your elbow onto your hip bone, resting the rifle on the heel of your palm ( no fingers). The just relax and breath. Your breathing should be the only thing moving your rifle( which is why you hold your breath when you shoot).
 
#7 ·
Most of this stuff people never think of. I shoot out in the country on both a set range and in a running and walking area we have set up as well. When the SHTF you will not be in one place and you must learn to shoot under all conditions. Those who do not will fail and/or die. Practice is a shooters best friend.

Thanks for the info H&C

HH54r
 
#8 ·
Warning; Long ass post. I hope to help anyone with this thread, not bash.

You know, I get a little frustrated with the whole "I shoot .5 moa" or "I killed Sasquatch at 1,500,000 yards with a .22" or blah blah blah. Almost none of this matters as much as you think, especially for SHTF and combat.

Before I go any further, For the record and a little background, my go to rifle is a PTR91k. My next, truck gun, and family handouts are all AK47s. This might make me biased, so what. Unlike a lot of bias people I've actually owned what I am bias against. (Ar15s) As far as the traits listed in the title, I recommend at the very LEAST a 5.56 or 5.45 rifle. That's at the absolute bare minimum. I recommend .308 personally.

but....to be frank....

What matters more than any ballistic table or myth is what YOU are comfortable with, and what YOU don't mind humping around, and what YOU trust with YOUR life. If you trust it, and you chose to carry it, that's YOUR preference. I'm not going to argue why I chose a MBR, or why you need to sell your AR.

So if you have no doubts about your rifle, and your abilities with said rifle, then you shouldn't pay any mind to anything, I, or anybody says about it. If you do, maybe you need to reexamine your choice. Consider your surroundings, possible and likely combat situations and your abilities.

Just make sure of a few things, no matter what tool you carry;



*Zero your rifle.


This to me, is common sense. But some people still don't mind hitting minute of barn at 50m. Also, check your zero from time to time, or after adjustments. Also, a lot of people don't even know how to aim their rifle. Proper sight alignment can mean a lot. Use your manual, or the google search bar, somewhere over there ---->

Here's some over simplified and all inclusive links.
(Russian sight alignment; http://www.ak-47.net/images/sight2.gif
American sight alignment; http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...sight_alignment_FM_3-22.9_(23-9)_Fig_4-17.png

AK47 zero; http://www.ak-47.net/ak47/sightingin.html
AR15 zero; http://ar15zeroing.com/)

Even you AK guys. There's a AK sight tool that can get your rifle 3moa or much better @ 100 w/ practice and time. That is more than enough, as, believe it or not, a 3moa group @100 is widely considered combat acceptable for M16s and M4s.

(AK47 sight tool; http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/49630-6.html )



*Learn your rifle, inside and out.


If you don't know how to completely disassemble your rifle for complete inspection or cleaning, learn. Get proficient with field stripping and cleaning specifically. If you are in the s**t and don't clean good enough, fast enough, you might get in some trouble. I also suggest learning how your rifle works, researching some common issues that could arise, and learning how to trouble shoot. You can't take your rifle to a smith while being chased by evil nazi zombies... or the batf, same thing.

AR15; http://www.ar15.com/content/guides/maintenance/
AK47; http://www.ar15.com/content/guides/assembly/akFieldStripping/ , http://www.guerrillagunsmith.com/akdetailed.htm

*Know your gear
Don't fear looking like a retard to your wife. Dress up in your gear, and practice changing mags, or drawing your ka-bar. Just do it. Learn how you like them situated, and keep them there. Practice it often. You don't want to be bobbling mags around while getting shot at. Having familiarity with where stuff is, and how to get it out is pretty important.

*Know your limitations

I really hope you know how to use your rifle, but also realize exposing yourself, and your position to fire a 450m shot with an AR15 might not be the best idea. Learn the max range of your rifle and what you are comfortable with. Without having to spend 10 minutes on a bench adjusting scopes or steadying on a sandbag. For most people about 250m is pretty much it, maybe a little further if you have a scoped rifle. (and know your rifle, your ammo, your weather conditions and your bullet drop.) Face it, most of us probably have no clue. Hell, most of us probably don't know 200m from 400m anyways. Practice range estimation. Use known distances, like a football field to practice. (Go to one, look from goal line to goal line, some people are truly taken in by how far and difficult a shot that can be.)

*Carry at least 120 rounds of anything.


For me, (Hk g3 pattern) that's 5 mags carried +1 inserted. To me, that's pretty light. I'm a big dude though. Plan on carrying a bunch of survival stuff too, so don't have 1K of .308 strapped on you. You'll get bogged down. No tealing how much other crap you will need to survive aside from ammo. Be sensible. I carry 8 mags+1 at the MAX unless I KNOW I will be in an extended fight with no resupply....(If I knew this I think my chances are pretty nill anyway.)

If you are like me, and think "rifleman" first 120-180rds is nothing to laugh at. If the S has HTF I sincerely hope you don't need 500rds in one firefight, and I also hope you have a base, rally point, cache or depot with more supplies.

*Clean your rifle
I don't care if you can shoot 10,000,000 rounds of wolf through your ar15 (or AK) before it's outstanding reliability becomes an issue. Clean your rifle when you can, and know that your accuracy will diminish a little after a few rounds. Unlike at the range, you can't swab it out every other shot to hit that sub-moa group in the middle of a firefight. Get familiar with your accuracy after your barrel heats up, and gets fouled.

*Learn how to shoot combat style.

This is what i want to stress, if you ignored anything else, at least understand this. Here's to you Mr. I hit dimes at 200m and will be a "sniper" if the SHTF...

You're not going to have a comfortable bench, with a few sandbags in combat. Sorry, your .25moa rifle isn't much better than my 2moa battle rifle if you can only use yours on a steady platform.

I suggest not ever shooting from a bench except to zero. Learn to shoot correctly. Learn to shoot unsupported from prone, crouched, and standing. Practice breath control. Make it all second nature, if not, when the **** starts flying you will forget everything and do whatever feels right.

The importance of practice; making some initially uncomfortable things turn into comfortable muscle memory. Just shooting some paper is not suitable training. Especially not from a bench. Learn to go without bi-pods too.

A decent start is reading some simple FMs or finding a former soldier... (fm 3-22.9, section II works ok...)

I hope this helps someone...

(upd.) Also, while this might sound like "duh" to some or maybe weird to others, learn to shoot with both eyes open, and force yourself to keep them open while shooting. (Wear EYE PRO) Not only does this take all of the fear, and anticipation away from firing, but also allows you to have eyes on target up until the very last moment, and be able to track quick follow ups. (It will take what seems like decades off of your next follow up shot.) You'd be surprised how many people get scared, or anxious blink, fire, and then repeat. Yea, be honest.

-H&C
H&C,
That post rocks bro! It IS what it is! I sure could not have said it better myself! Definitely one in the bank for ya! SemperFi!:thumb:
 
#15 ·
I would only add, that in addition to the great advice you gave is to learn different shooting positions and get familiar with them, and practice with them.

Standing offhand is a great position to become accurate with, but not always the best position for the situation. Standing will expose you in a lot of instances.

In addition to standing unsupported, I work on standing supported (weak and strong side), kneeling unsupported, kneeling supported, sitting, and prone and urban prone. It's also a good idea to spend some time doing these with weak side, as well.

Running gun battles aren't always where you find yourself. In fact, it's downright stupid in a lot of instances. A lot of your fighting will be from cover, and different types of cover and concealment will not always lend itself to your favorite shooting position.

Just add more tools to your box, and you will be better prepared.
 
#25 · (Edited)
For combat shooting, as we were talking about that is not the proper firing position. If you are firing slow fire well aimed shots then maybe, but regardless you don't lock your knees... As far as skeleton versus muscle issue, I think this is opening a door for some confusion. Like, when firing kneeling where do you put your firing elbow? On the meaty part of your leg or on your boney knee? (The answer is on the meaty portion). When shouldering your rifle you place the butt on the far end of your pectoral muscle and roll your shoulder forward to make a little pad of muscle behind the rifle. Not on the bones of your shoulder. The reason why, is bone on bone, or bone on hard surface tends to roll during firing.

I was in the Army for 8-years, 5 of which as an infantryman, never once was I ever instructed to lock my knees. I was a DM in my company and am pretty well versed when it comes to basic and advanced marksmanship. You learn real quick how to properly hold your weapon and assume firing positions as not doing it properly is tantamount to throwing a football like a girl to your fellow grunts ;)

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-22-9/c07.htm#sectioni

Goto part 7-23, about 2/3's down the page. Remember, there is a difference between basic marksmanship and advanced; advanced firing positions imply that you have things like breath/finger control and are able to accurately engage and handle your weapon properly. Though not complete, the marksmanship manual does get into some of the advanced firing techniques.
 
#24 ·
Considering I wear plates, and hope to have them if SHTF, I train the way I was instructed with them. Just as GOFO and fs19 have posted.

Now, I do understand what you are saying letsgetreal, and quentin; but I wholefully disagree. I use a MBR, that's .308, you cannot POSSIBLY control recoil and have rapid target acquisition from shot to shot unless you are leaning into it, balenced correctly, and slightly bent. You can get tired, and you can get weak, but it's better than getting shot under my plate while looking into the sky with my muzzle at the treeline...GOFO is completly correct on that. Just TRY IT. It might not be a huge difference with .223, but .308 will but an exclamation point on your stance.

As far as crouched and prone, I use BONE SUPPORT. It can hurt like hell until you get used to it. IMHO you should never really get tired or be excessively shaky when prone or crouched, the whole bone support thing is just too easy. When standing that's when it's up to your endurance.

Try this link for more info;

http://www.aihpa.com/Training&Guides/US Marine Shooting Team Guide.htm
 
#29 ·
Excellent, well thought out, and well articulated post.

Among the key points are:

"Use and know your gear..." I have met a lot of gear junkies - even at tactical training courses - who had a lot more "stuff" than practice.

Saw many people struggling with setting up gear to move, shoot and maneuver comfortably with while wearing/saw others casting off gear due to heat, fit problems, or restriction of movement at a tactical course...

I remember one course in particular that I shot my caveman's club (plain jane, iron sights only, beater WASR) while there were numerous people with electro whiz bang 007 sniper reticle sights on their 15 lb. AR-15s. It was funny to me how some people at first have that arrogant way about them where they are looking at my rifle with the "what a piece of junk" look relative to their "top of the line" hardware... Its a funny thing about iron sights.... despite the 90 degree heat, my sights/scopes never gave out, whereas more than a few of the top contenders for the coveted "Most DooDads on a super slick looking AR-15" title, had a lot of trouble. Message here - over reliance on technology at the expense of knowing how your rifle works, being able to shoot it effectively with iron sights (and for some - amazingly enough to me - not even having back up iron sights) is a recipe for defeat (death) in a true life or lose situation...

I also really liked the have a weapon you can trust with your life section... I couldn't agree more. For me, that's the Kalashnikov platform hands down...

Hapy New Year, y'all!!!
 
#31 ·
Great post H&C!! I agree with all you have said, and only have this to add; I am rather new to shooting (about a year and a half), and had no military training as some of you have had.

I have, however, attented two Applseed Shoots (http://www.appleseedinfo.org/), and was given some really helpful basic firearms (rifle) instruction. my accuracy and patterns increased greatly after the first day of the first course. we were instructed in sling usage, breathing, and positioning (standing, kneeling, and prone).

it was one of the best things I have ever done as regards firearms and learning. practice is great, but if you are not practicing the right things, you're largely wasting your time. basic instruction is key. then, at least you are practicing sound techniques.

of all the things they showed us, I found sling usage and breathing to be THE most important to a new shooter. FWIW, they taught us to fire at the bottom of the exhale (not holding breath), and it works wonderfully. we were taught to find the Natural Point of Aim once positioned (NPoA), and the breathing was the only thing that moved the muzzle once in a proper position. it's pretty cool when you come to that realization. very cool.

FWIW, the Appleseed instructors are all volunteers, and use a really low-pressure style of teaching. it was great, and I highly recommend it.

agree with you that other than siting the firearm, bench shooting is a complete waste of time. even before Appleseed instruction, I practiced standing, kneeling and prone, as well as what I called "snap" shooting (having the firearm slung in front, brining it up fast, acquiring the target ASAP and firing ASAP. was fun stuff.

the other thing I'd add is, use your local ranges full availability of firing/target distances. my outdoor range has 50, 50/100 combo, 100 and 200. I do all of them. works for me. :)
 
#34 ·
Training is what I consider most important to spend money on. I am far from an expert shot, but practice helps.

Also, playing tactical first person shooters is a fun training method. It really hones your hand-eye coordination. I am a grizzled veteran of digital combat, and though it is no substitute for hands-on rifle training, you would be surprised at how helpful it is.
 
#35 ·
FPSs are pretty fun, but honestly they do not count as a training method. This coming from someone who used to be seriously into FPSs, it really does nothing for you. The hand-eye coordination you gain in a video game doesn't transfer to holding a real weapon, wearing a real vest, and aiming through a real sight. Nothing wrong with playing video games, but trying to pretend they are a real training aid is just ignorant.
 
#37 ·
Wow. What a great post. And no Wolfe, you are not the only one. Anyone who has stuck a playing card on a target at 100 yds then stood on his hind legs and tried to hit it knows how hard it is to hit from standing position at anything over 50-75 yds. My son and I played that game one day a couple of years ago while zeroing deer rifles. We make it a part of practice now regularly. The great lesson here is :get proper instruction and practice, practice, practice.
 
#38 ·
A lot of good info here as well as a spirited debate on shooting styles. To each their own, use what works for you and build upon that.

One of the things I was taught in the service, which I don't recall reading here in this thread, is to also practice shooting with your non-dominant side. I'm a righty, so naturally I shoot right handed. But, the scene or an injury may dictate that I am now faced with a firing situation using my left hand. For exp. if you have to shoot from behind the left corner of a bldg you'll need to fire, and aim, using your non-dominant side.

Practice loading, firing, and re-loading with not just your MBR but also your sidearm as well.
 
#42 ·
(upd.) Also, while this might sound like "duh" to some or maybe weird to others, learn to shoot with both eyes open, and force yourself to keep them open while shooting.

-H&C

Love this suggestion. I have been shooting with both eyes open since I was a small boy. I don't know why it works so much better, but it just does! I tell other people this, and they think i'm crazy! I'm happy to hear it coming from someone else.
 
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