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Reloading for Newbies

23K views 184 replies 23 participants last post by  Grumpy 
#1 ·
"Cash is King"

I need to learn how to reload. It'll be 223 and 308.

I've signed up for a class, Christmas season will probably put it off till early 2013.

I have nothing other than a good attitude and a willingness to watch 48 "you tube" videos telling you 43 different opinions.

I plan on loading in batches of 100. Use a plastic box of 100, reload that group of 100. I have been saving my 5.56/.223 brass and taking what others don't want, so I have an ample supply of those casings.

Don't have any 308s yet.

I would like this to be an open discussion. So that those of us that are new can learn.

Please keep in mind that even though there may be only a few folks offering opinions many may be watching and learning from the sidelines.

Thanks, MJ52
 
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#126 ·
I haven't shot since 12/3/12....this time off did not help...But I did have other things to do...

This Sunday I'm going to shoot standing from 200 yards as a guest.

So I figured how much could 8 days and really never shooting to 200 standing be a problem. I couldn't hit a church if I was standing in the Vatican. I S***k (stunk)

I hung steel (4MOA) and shot prone... No Problemo.. it was stupid easy. I stood up and I couldn't hit the ocean. 20 shots and I was able to put 7 on an 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper....It felt like I was trying to swat a fly....

Their field, their rules, their game. I want in and i have 4 days till Sunday.

Appleseed to the rescue..
 
#127 ·
FL vs Neck sizing,

Anything I'm going to load into a magazine should be FL sized and the magazine determines OAL.

What about when I must load 1 at a time? The 600 range is 1 at a time. I lay each round on top of an empty magazine, make sure the rifle is pointed at the target and with the safety on release the bolt. In this instance would neck sizing be a better option?


200 standing

Much better than yesterday but still well below what I'd like. 3 days.
 
#129 ·
FL vs Neck sizing,

Anything I'm going to load into a magazine should be FL sized and the magazine determines OAL.

What about when I must load 1 at a time? The 600 range is 1 at a time. I lay each round on top of an empty magazine, make sure the rifle is pointed at the target and with the safety on release the bolt. In this instance would neck sizing be a better option?
Maybe, probably not. There are a couple reasons for "neck size" only. One is to keep more case capacity. A fired case (about 1 thousand of an inch smaller than the chamber), will hold more volume, than a full sized case, which size has been reduced to SAMMI specs (usually considerably smaller than a standard SAMMI chamber......usually!).

So if you are shooting larger (longer/heavier) bullets and want the extra volume in the case for additional powder, to launch the larger bullet faster (provided the additional powder doesn't create pressure over maximum safe amounts for your rifle)......neck size only.......may......provide an advantage.

Neck sizing only, may (will usually) increase the life of the brass, especially if you anneal the brass often.

Neck sizing only, may improve accuracy.

.....there is a trend there wrapped around "may". If I were going to work up some loads for your AR using larger (heavier/longer) bullets for single feed, I would stick with FL sizing and standard COAL until I obtained a load with promising results. Then I would adjust the COAL. If I obtained better results by reducing the bullet jump and seating the bullet closer to the lands, I would return to making very small adjustments in powder to tweak the load for more improvement. All of this, of course, is while monitoring for max pressure signs.

If while neck sizing, I discovered the process was creating more bullet runout, I would either change the tools or methods used to neck size, or return to using better FL tools (like the type you ordered).

When you neck size only, the case body and shoulder never get reduced or set back to SAMMI specs. As you fire these neck sized only cases, they will enlarge to the point they will require more than normal effort to close and lock the breech (usually).

In a bolt gun, this condition is easier to overcome and easier to monitor. How many times a case can be neck sized and used in a specific chamber before it grows so large the bolt will not go into battery, depends on the type brass (headstamp, etc.), annealing, chamber pressure of the loads (minimum or maximum loads, etc.)......and perhaps how you hold your tongue when pressing the trigger!!:D: When the neck size cases will not go into battery, they need to be adjusted with a body die, bumping the should back, or full length sizing.

All these conditions are much easier controlled, monitored, adjusted, and achieve the learned skill, when using a bolt gun....such as your 308. They can be applied to the AR, but it would make it much easier, safer, and results orientated, for at least in the beginning.......to FL size (....you said it......walk, then run).

Often, the competitor will step back from obtaining the very best, to consider the most reliable and consistent. If we consider self defense, the absolute 1st rule is reliable bang, then other considerations as to effect, accuracy, etc. Competitors who run against the clock, must also consider reliability as well.....trying to clear an AR-15, with a over size round slammed and wedged into the chamber under a clock to get off so many rounds in X amount of minutes.....can be frustrating and a game changer.


Best Regards.......Eagle Six
 
#128 ·
I was rotating my tires after changing my oil being guarded by dog when "that noise" approached. I know, it took me 2 hrs and I saved $0.37. My father would've been proud.

"Brown" shows up and Brown Jr comes struggling across the street. Dog is ready, but I put him in the carwith the windows up, didn't matter he's watchin for all he was worth. No barking or anything like that (he knows better), just watchin

2 boxes 50 lbs, I tell Brown Jr to take the top one. He's got 14 and I got 36. I was too proud to put the heavy one down and take the light one.

The only thing on backorder was the digital scale.

I understand there's a holiday approaching and I'm sure I'll have several things to take care of so it'll be after 12/25/12..unless the Mayans were right... before I can begin to learn how to reload.

I really hope I tightened all the lug nuts, I became distracted.

200 is not where I want it with 2 days left. I'm going to go and make my decision there. I'm not going to be unsafe or at least my version of unsafe.
 
#130 ·
They can be applied to the AR, but it would make it much easier, safer, and results orientated, for at least in the beginning.......to FL size (....you said it......walk, then run).


"Easier and Safer" words to live by.

I was just thinking since I had to use 77GR at 600, I made certain, shoot 20 pick up 20 and put them back in those schnazzy white plastic 10 round sleeves.

I wasn't sure if these cases were now more "valuable" since they were fire formed from my rifle. Just didn't want to make a silly mistake, so I asked.

"Easier and Safer" to FL size. Consider it done.


Please take no offense with my not offering an unrequested, uneducated opinion regarding the tragedy in CT. Evil simply is.
 
#131 ·
200 standing. Ever feel like the brown shoes worn with a tux?

The more exposure I get the more I learn. But, honestly doing anything for the first time is a little unsettling especilly when you really don't have any idea WTF you're walking into.

157 w/1x out of 200 with 2 off the target. I laughed when I saw the "X ". Blind stupid luck.

ALL 20 holes were found and I shot consistently low. I'm happy, I'm not satisfied but I am where I stand.

It was funny. I had 20 rounds in a plastic sandwich bag, ear and eye protection carrying a rifle that was built to be shot prone, basically a Mack truck. The other 3 in my flight were driving race cars. YOU DANCE WITH ONE YOU BROUGHT.

Walk in, say hello to all that look me in the eye, try to sit on the fringe and let it flow. When I can, I ask a question of those sitting at my table.

First timer, what are the rules, how is it done, what do I need.

Turns out I'm a Mack truck in a field of race cars. So be it, 1 rifle learn how to shoot it.

This fella I met at 0900 realized I was a fish out of water and out of the goodness of his heart offered to to show me the ropes.

The world is full of good people. Full of people that are willing to assist someone trying. I'm a very lucky man.
 
#133 ·
I lied,

Someone else scored my target and did it in about 3 seconds, wrote down my score on the "Score Sheet" and walked away.

This morning I looked at my own target and knew something was wrong. I could only get a score of 134. I certainly did try to get to 157 and would've been happy if someone could do it for me. But 134 just looks like a more realistic score. I had 2 misses thats 20 points right there.

I'm going to ask this same person to score all of my targets from now on.
 
#135 ·
First things first.

Happy Holidays to all. If the world should end tomorrow I love the ones I love and the hell with the rest of you.

134 12/16 2 misses
136 12/19 2 misses
147 12/20 2 misses These 2 misses are worth 10 pts/ea w/200 max.

I can and do call the misses. It doesn't make them any less grevious but at least I know.

I asked someone else whose aim I trust to dry fire at the same target I'm using at 200. I explained to him I'm interested in how much the muzzle actually moves in relation to what he feels/sees through the scope.

The first thing he said was WTF are you doing trying to do this. I explained it's the rules of the game. I go, I pay, I shoot.

He agreed to honor my request and proceeded to shoot from standing without any support at a target 200 yards away and describe his POA.

Same results, a paintbrush all over the place. Meanwhile I was perpendicular to the muzzle and really watched it move.

It didn't move much at all.

Hold your hand at arm's length and with your thumb and forefinger describe 1/4 inch. This was all the muzzle moved in elevation. I wasn't going to stand of front of an unloaded rifle to check windage. I admit to being chicken.

The point I'm trying to make is what seems like wild motions to the eye of the shooter are actually a lot less severe and may seem imperceptible to someone standing close by.

Those 2 misses on my practice target may be worth a few points. But in reality they're misses.

NPOA and the natural pause in my breath will be my solution. I do need to reset though when I know it, rather than press.

To All and Every, a Merry Christmas. Give the ones you love a hug and the ones that make you smle a pass. The rest??

Reloading is coming. I can't wait to try this cronograph gizmopulator. But it's rained for most of the past week and I'm not going to ruin a tool I don't even know how to use.
 
#137 ·
I found this on a different site and thought others might find it useful

Q:

I'm new to this and haven't figured out the purpose of a chronograph. I understand it measures the speed of the bullet, but i can't seem to make it click in my brain what you do with the information. If your getting groups you like at the ranges you desire, is it really necessary?

A:

Using a chronograph isn't necessary, but there are a number of important things you can get from a chronograph.

A chronograph allows you to shoot further with better accuracy. How are you going to know what your MV really is if you don't use one? If you don't shoot past 100 yards, then this doesn't mean much, but if you shoot varying, or long distances then you need an accurate MV to calculate drops. Whether it's factory ammo, or handloads, MV varies from gun to gun, so if you're hunting or shooting competition you need to know what the ballistic curve looks like. You have two choices...start with an accurate MV from a chronograph, or test at every possible distance you might shoot. One is a hell of alot easier than the other.

Another thing a chronograph will provide is a direct measure of your reloading consistency. How much variation in MV, from round to round, will tell you if you're doing the right things reloading, or if something needs work. Average velocity, extreme spread and standard deviation are the usual statistics that will allow you to compare how you're doing overall or when you want to compare one load to another.

Ultimately it's up to the reloader if they want to use one. No, they are not absolutely necessary. Personally though, I think anyone who hunts, competes, or just wants to improve their reloading skills will benefit from using them.



Okay, now I understand a little more than I did yesterday.
 
#138 ·
As your post implies, the chronograph is a measurement tool. It's purpose is to aid in developing loads to meet a specific goal. One goal may be accuracy throughout a give range of distances, or a specific distance......or to achieve or maintain a minimum momentum.

For the vast majority of us, it also requires a ballistic calculator to assist in forecasting the desired results at longer distances (600/800/1,000 yards), based on the measurement we get at a closer distance (muzzle/100/200 yards).

Extreme spread, gives us an idea how consistent our handloads are. If we use a 10 round sample, the slowest being measured at 2,800 fps and the fastest at 2,825 fps.....our extreme spread would be 25 fps and that would be considered good. If the low was 2,750 and the high 2,820, the extreme spread climbs to 70 fps, not so good, and that would indicate we may have a problem with our loading technique (mixed brands of brass, extreme variation in neck tension, etc.), or perhaps the primers and powder we combined do not favor each other.

A large extreme spread is seldom good, but a smaller extreme spread is just part of the reading and may not indicate an accuracy load.

The average muzzle velocity can be used effectively to forecast momentum and at what distance the bullet will fall out of supersonic flight, but does not provide a lot of information for accuracy.

Standard deviation is a key measurement for accuracy. Uniformity of velocity is key to accuracy and standard deviation is a statistical measurement of uniformity. It is also the least understood and the more difficult to calculate (by hand anyway). It's the spread of difference within about 2/3 thirds of the sample. A standard deviation of 8 fps would be very good, as opposed to 20 fps which would be fine for many uses, but probably not for accuracy loads. The 2/3 of the sample are the 2/3 which are closest as to being the same.

Using the standard deviation as a reliable measurement requires a reasonable size sample. A statistician would like as large a sample as possible, often outside of reason. Probably the most recognized sample as useful would be 20 rounds. That doesn't have to be a 20 round group, it could be two 10's, four 5's, or any combination, as long as the sample was collected at the same time, or within reasonably same conditions (same temperature, humidity, altitude, pressure, same lot of components.....some of which has little effect, but you get the idea).

If we can get at least 2/3 of our handload to measure a very close to the same velocity, it implies the combination or case, primer, powder (and how much), bullet, seat tension, seat depth, bullet runout, and loading technique.....should.....be an accurate load, for at least some distances.

If we launch bullets at the same velocity, they should have the same trajectory. At a given point in the flight path of the bullets, they should all group close together. If one bullet is slower and/or faster than others, the trajectory is going to be different in comparison, and it goes to reason, the bullets will impact higher, and/or lower, than others.....opening up the group.

In application, we will never get all the bullets 9some maybe, but not all) to launch at precisely the same velocity, but we know the closer we come to the same, the more accurate and uniform the loads should be. For me, I strive for 6 fps standard deviation, with a maximum extreme spread of 18 fps. I don't always get it! But, I always attempt to reach that goal.

For a quick and dirty initial reading (usually in the field without a standard deviation calculator), we would chronograph 10 rounds, subtract the high reading, subtract the low reading, and average the remaining 8 readings. This method doesn't replace a standard deviation calculation, it just gives us a quick "look see" indicator. Fortunately, most chronographs provide standard deviation calculations for a specific string (sample).

So, a small standard deviation, combined with a small extreme spread, which obtains the minimum average velocity......should give us an accuracy load! In practice it accounts for one of the puzzle pieces......it's important, but may not solve, or provide, the accuracy we seek.

Not withstanding the breech, firing pin, chamber, throat, twist, barrel length, and rifling.......what at the loading bench effects standard deviation at the chronograph? Just about everything we touch and do! From the selection of component combinations, to our technique of preparing the brass and putting it all together. One thing which effect all the other specifics is.....consistency. We strive to use better techniques and better tools, but using those tools consistently, just like in our shooting skills, is a key component to success on target.

.......well not everything I have said is absolutely 100% correct, but for saving time and space, taking one step at a time, I think it is pretty close to being accurate!

Best Regards.......Eagle Six
 
#139 ·
I know some guys that like to "push the envelope" with their loads.

They will try to push a bullet faster and faster.

A friend of mine pushed a 55 grain .223 to 5300fps.

Have you ever seen a bullet explode at 20 yards?

Just past the chrony, a little puff appeared and no mark on paper.

Myself, I think speed kills.

I don't push my loads or rifle to the extremes.

Start on the lighter end of load development and work up.

EXAMPLE ONLY!!!!......
Starting load: 40 grains of X powder....load five rounds

Load#2 40.3 grains-five rounds
Load#3 40.6 grains-five
Load#4 40.9 grains-five

Test fire at 100 yards

Load #1 gave 2.5" group
Load #2 gave 2" group
Load #3 gave .75" group
Load #4 gave 1.5"group.

This info tells me that there is a sweet spot somewhere between 40.3 and 40.9.

Back to the press, this time in .1 grain increments.

Sweet spot found at 40.5.....chrony time.
 
#140 ·
.....well.....this is not just a great recommendation how to proceed, it is obviously words of wisdom based on direct experience......


I agree with Grumpy. It's been my experience, and I think most others, when it comes to accuracy, that accuracy node is not at the max loading point. In fact, usually I can find two accuracy nodes, one a margin back from the maximum load, and a small margin forward of the minimum load.

The load just above minimum is usually reduced recoil, and reduced barrel wear. The load under max, but on the higher side of the load range, is usually the better performance for longer distances, but not always the most accurate. As long as the bullet is still stabilized above transonic, the paper doesn't care how fast the bullet is going.....may as well go for the load that is more pleasant to shoot and is less barrel and throat wear on the rifle.

Those who are into extreme long range hunting have a desire to closely approach those maximum loads. They aren't necessarily pushing the limit, but approaching it, and closer than others may feel comfortable with (...and, as pointed out by Grumpy....some push it regularly!). They need to maintain a minimum velocity providing bullet killing performance at the maximum distances they plan to hunt. Some are hunting elk beyond 600 yards, while others are taking mule deer beyond a thousand yards!

I'm not a long range sports hunter, but I do seek out high performance loads, which are often pushing the envelope of the 308. Never at the expense of safety, but always within an accuracy node in around the 1,100 - 1,200 yard range (supersonic). I've never found a factory load that will provide this performance, so precision handloading is a way to get there. By handloading I can keep the velocity up, accuracy in check and use the component combination that keeps the loads under maximum pressure, even in the heat of our desert environment.

Now I wouldn't use a 308 to take elk at 600 yards, or mule deer at a thousand, but I would take a 400 yard elk shot, 600 yards on mule deer, and out to 800 yards for sheep, pronghorn or coyote, etc., under conditions I am comfortable with and the load that will perform at those distances with a 308. 2 legged varmints would be doable out to that 1,200 yard distance......fortunately, I don't have a need for that kind of hunting anymore!


Best Regards......Eagle Six
 
#141 ·
Gentlemen,

I'm referring to E-6 and Grumpy... I'm listing names alphabetically so as to not upset anyone.

This is the absolute truth.... I shot 5 rounds through my chrono (cool guy talk) today and was honestly petrified I would put the first round right through the GD thing.

Thankfully I was able to miss and the machine recorded my shots so I know it works.

The Gizmo is a "computer" of sorts and stores various data regarding the projectiles passing through its field of vision. Actually the shadow cast by the bullet as it passes over the eyes of the gizmo. You in turn press buttons and code is generated, make sure you hang on to the owners manual, telling you what the machine measured during a particular string of up to 10 shots.

The 5 shots I took averaged 3360 FPS. That is moving right along. There is a lot more data but I just wanted to verify I could actually use it and not blow it into numerous small pieces. This will be a very useful tool.

I'm going to have to read Grumpy and E-6's most recent posts at least four times before they make a lot of sense to me. But I will read them till they do.

I feel like the guy that just learned how to tie his shoes.

On a 200yPPN ( 200 yard personal positive note) 20/20 within the scoring rings with a score of 174/200. Whoever coined the term practice, practice, practice very well could've been on to something.

Life is good, mj52
 
#142 ·
At my friend's range, I found a piece of rod bent at a right angle on the pistol range.

I asked him what it was and he told me he'd been looking for that for two years.

Another friend was using his Chrony to work up loads and they were joking around about shooting the machine.

Well, it got shot...right in the rod.

The backstop for the pistols is 30 yards from the rifle bench at a 45 degree angle, the rod was behind the berm.

His chrony still works, just doesn't have the cool little "umbrellas" on it.
 
#143 ·
Years back Shooting Chrony offer a Plain Jane red unit that was refurbished. It had the standard pickup cells, large display face and cloud covers, but no remote, no download, no large memory or extra functions. It wasn't fancy, but it worked as well as their larger units. We called it the "shoot-a-way", as a spin off to "throw away", it was $49.99! On top of that, they would replace the unit under warranty if it got shot!!

Those days are past now, but they were good while they lasted. Us instructors would carry a couple and when they got shot, we would throw them away to a student to send back for replacement and then that student would get a repaired one to replace it and have their own.

Some were pretty much destroyed by one shot and others were like a Timex watch, they took the hit and kept on ticking! If I remember correctly over a 10-12 year period, maybe 4 got shot.

Now I'm down to just my Beta Master unit and I DO hoover over students when they are lining up for their string of shots. It wouldn't be the end of the world if it got hit, but it would be the end of the lesson, if one of the other instructors neglected to bring theirs as a spare.

MJ......how far out from the muzzle did you set up your chronograph? What were the five readings you got? What factory load did you use for the test (bullet type and weight)? How about the temperature, humidity, barometer pressure and altitude?

Best Regards.......E6
 
#144 ·
E-6,

"MJ......how far out from the muzzle did you set up your chronograph? What were the five readings you got? What factory load did you use for the test (bullet type and weight)? How about the temperature, humidity, barometer pressure and altitude?"

I was probably 12' from the Gizmopulator. It comes with a 16' cord so accounting for slack I think 12' is reasonable.

The readings were 3365, 3387, 3370, 3326, 3354.

Federal bulk ammo 5.56... 55 gr FMJ

Temperature...mid 30s, Humidity..very heavy. Mid 30s and wet/humid is bone chilling cold..and it was, barometer (falling ??) storm coming in (and it did). Altitude 400' +/-.
 
#146 ·
I'm making a few assumptions......sight height 2.5", Sierra 55 grain JMJBT bullet, 35*F, 80% humidity, pressure 29.12", altitude 400' ASL.....

With a 100 yard zero, the bullet should fall transonic at about 775 yards. Require 12 MOA (3.5 Mils) in elevation to strike target at 600 yards, and require a wind compensation of 2.25 Mils for a full value 10 mph crosswind.


 
#163 · (Edited)
1/2/13.. things back to normal and education resumes. G David Tubbs is an interesting fellow.
Beyond interesting, I think he is a bit on the weird side......course there are those who think I'm weird (....hell, I'm one of them !). No doubt that boy can shoot, and no doubt he has contributed to the shooting sport, like many other icons of the greats. He is, in my opinion, one of those guys driven by commitment, focused on his art, and blessed to be one of those God Like Grand Master Champions.

We may not agree with everything he says or does, but there can be no argument about the authority of accomplishments from which he speaks. When G. David Tubbs opens his mouth, I close mine and open my ears!


Best Regards......Eagle Six
 
#149 ·
Great read!
Thank you, all of you.

Two things if I may,
1) has anyone ever had the need for small base dies?
2) Has anyone addressed the muzzle movement seen by mj52?

My brother was an instructor for the BIA for a while, and he told everyone he taught that it's impossible to hold completely still while shooting from your hind legs. His advice was to try and keep the movement up and down - not side to side or round and round - and fire either on the way up or on the way down. He preferred going up, but either worked as long as the trigger finger was consistant.

Thank you for your indulgance.
 
#151 · (Edited)
I did notice that my LR-308 did not like the reloads that were done with the lee die set, I purchased the small base sizer die set by RCBS and it cured the problem, how ever my Mauser long rifle chambered in 308 didn't seem to care as much. RCBS makes a cartridge head-space check gauge that seems to cure all these problems. I use it a-lot, after every step. Just my experience. OOPS the gauge is a Lyman
 
#150 ·
This has been a great read, I will be asking some questions, as i want to hand load for the 308, 223, 45acp, 380,and the 9mm, also the 12 Ga shotgun.
Thanks to all who have posted in this thread, I have gleaned a lot of information from all. I am into casting my own bullets ( or is that Boolits ) and shot. I will post my queries as they come up.
Thanks Riv
 
#152 ·
This has been a great read, I will be asking some questions, as i want to hand load for the 308, 223, 45acp, 380,and the 9mm, also the 12 Ga shotgun.
Thanks to all who have posted in this thread, I have gleaned a lot of information from all. I am into casting my own bullets ( or is that Boolits ) and shot. I will post my queries as they come up.
Thanks Riv
Boolits- As God laid it into the soil, Grand Old Galena, the silver stream graciously hand poured into moulds for our consumption.

Bullets- Machine-made, utilizing full-length gas checks to provide projectiles for the masses.

^^^^^^^^^^^
Plagarized from castboolits.com
 
#157 ·
Everyone,

Thanks for honoring E-6, Grumpy and others.

I've got everything needed to reload now except primers, powder and bullets. I had no idea something extremely evil would occur. Tomorrow I'll be trying to take care of that and will move forward as I can.

Some good reading though.

This link is a long read and should be given the time it deserves.

http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2012/12/20/an-opinion-on-gun-control/


This link simply adds evidence to the truism, Figures lie and Liars figure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ooa98FHuaU0


I can't copy and paste this link (Stpid Computer) but you can figure it out.

Breaking: TX Theatre Shooting Stopped At Mall by Concealed Weapon Hlde


ATTEND AN APPLESEED. Learn a little history, at least from the winner's perspective.
A semi-auto 22 and 500 rounds, a weekend. It will change your point of view.

God bless and protect our children.
 
#158 ·
Everyone,

Thanks for honoring E-6, Grumpy and others.

I've got everything needed to reload now except primers, powder and bullets. I had no idea something extremely evil would occur. Tomorrow I'll be trying to take care of that and will move forward as I can.

Some good reading though.

http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2012/12/20/an-opinion-on-gun-control/
You might find some of the higher priced stuff....match grade bullets, match grade primers.....but pretty much most places are sold out of the 223 rifles, ammo and loading components. I did well at a small local shop, but that was well over a week ago.......good luck with your quest!

I think manufacturers and suppliers are better prepared to recover from the shortages than in 2008, but by the time they catch up, maybe our pea shooters will be illegal!!!!!

Best Regards.......Eagle Six
 
#164 ·
Morning,

Swallow your coffee before reading this. Don't want you spitting on yourself.

Day1 Mistake 1.

Sierra 77 gr .224. Bought some but there is no cannelure.

Since these will be loaded 1 at a time there won't be any recoil banging on them. The only whack will be the bolt coming forward.

Can the lack of a cannelure be worked around or do I need a Binford 2000 canneluring tool? Can I add a slight crimp without a cannelure?

I weighed the bullets, a 0.1 gr difference in the entire lot. 77.1-77.2 gr and that was it.

The 55 gr had a 0.5 gr spread. 55.0 to 55.5 gr.

I'll never be out of work mainly because every village needs an idiot.

I must agree that G David is one consumed fellow and would shudder at what I consider to be good practical shooting (I'm not referring to 200 standing, all 20 inside the 8 ring would meet my idea of practical and i haven't done that yet)

Funny how we humans strive for mechanical perfection (pick any sport) but don't like the coldness of many of the machines we need to interact with.
 
#165 ·
Sierra 77 gr .224. Bought some but there is no cannelure.

Since these will be loaded 1 at a time there won't be any recoil banging on them. The only whack will be the bolt coming forward.

Can the lack of a cannelure be worked around or do I need a Binford 2000 canneluring tool? Can I add a slight crimp without a cannelure?
....Yes, No, Yes.....

"Can the lack of a cannelure be worked around"......yes, just load them and shoot them 1 at a time.

"do I need a Binford 2000 canneluring tool?"......no, most likely the tool process will destroy the accuracy value of the bullets.

"Can I add a slight crimp without a cannelure?".......yes, it's referred to as a taper crimp, but it's tricky.


I taper crimp some 308 loads. The crimp is about 1.5 thousands. Sometimes it will improve, or not effect accuracy, often it will degrade accuracy. Cases have to be trimmed to the exact same length and cut square to the neck. But even then, if the necks are not turned to the same thickness, or the brass has been over-worked from repeated firings (without being annealed), the taper crimp can cause misalignment of the bullet when it gets started out of the neck from building pressure. I'm referring to sub-MOA accuracy, not hunting or machinegun accuracy.

For those bullets which will seat deep enough to fit in the magazine, the normal friction/tension of the neck should prevent the bullet from being pounded into the case from previous recoil. If you are using a standard set of FL dies and the standard size expander ball, there should be 3-5 thousand neck tension. This tension/friction should hold the bullet at seating depth for 4-5 rounds. This might not be true with a 20-30 round magazine full (which provides 19-29 recoils), but only a test of your loads will tell the tale.

Precision shooters normally use no crimp of any kind......it normally will add to the frustration of tuning an accuracy load. So, I avoid it when I can, and that is anytime it doesn't provide an advantage over the accuracy loss.

I do crimp battle ammo. Mostly for 223/556, it is a roll crimp in the cannelure. For 308/7.62 I taper crimp .001-.0015", which by the way is almost impossible to measure accurately!

A standard Federal 308 Gold Medal Match case neck is .0145 - .015". A typical FL sizing die will compress the OD of the neck to .330-.332". That produces an ID of .300-.302" and yields about .006" neck tension. I have never had a Federal Gold Medal Match bullet slide into the case when fired in box magazine rifles. Usually, .003"-.004" neck tension is sufficient to hold the bullet under the impact of repeated recoil from previous rounds fired.

Your mileage may be different, but a simple test will provide the answer.


Best Regards.......Eagle Six
 
#166 ·
For my "one-at-a-time" ammo in my bolt gun, I use no crimp at all.

For the magazine-fed ammo and hunting rounds, I decided to go with the Lee Factory Crimp Die.

It adds another step to the process, but gives pretty consistant results.

Then again, I use a wide variety of brass that I don't sort by headstamp, weight, age, sex, or national origion.

I sort by caliber and rifle.

Tumble, size/deprime, trim(if needed), deburr, tumble, throw in a bucket.

When I have some down-time (or just get bored), I'll clean the primer pockets and seat primers, then put 'em back in a bucket.

When the mood strikes me, as it did over the holidays, I break out the dies.

I did over 1500 .308, and 1000 .45acp's. Not to mention a couple hundred 30-30's.

All on a single-stage press!

I cast about 100 pounds of .30cal, .357's and .45's too.

Everyone has heard of "tennis elbow".....I have reloaders elbow.
 
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