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Tom Brown Tracker School Instructor Insight

66K views 142 replies 67 participants last post by  HeavyTakeMusic 
#1 · (Edited)
This is a post that was just made on the Campfire Talks Forums of an email from St Louis Tracker Clubs. Interesting insight as to how they treat senior instructors and that the instructors are making up content and it is not WHAT TOM BROWN DID. Seems that they are teaching their own cirricullum and not the teachings as what is being Smoke and Mirrored as teachings of Tom Brown's Apache mentor. This is appalling. :(

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Post:
Tom Brown Tracker School Instructor Insight
Hey Gang,

This is an email I received from the ST Louis Tracker Clubs from an Instructor from the Tom Brown Tracker School. I have not attended this school or classes and can not comment personally on the situation.
I am only posting the email I received, you make your own judgments.
------------------------------
Hi all. The following email was sent to me by another tracker student. I have worked with George and Vanessa more than once or twice - for them to send an email like this is very uncharactoristic but does bespeak some problems that are going on. I will only say to use your best judgment, follow your heart. I will not judge anyone for whatever they choose in relation to this subject, but I do think it is important. George and Vanessa are both very ethical, work very hard and deserve to be paid for the work they provided. Just my 2 cents...

Tim



Hello Everyone,
Vanessa and I hope you are all doing well.
The reason we're contacting you, is because we need your help. For those of you who do not know, Vanessa and I were approached and consequently hired by Tracker to improve the School's relationship with it's students.
I'm guessing it was because of our 22 year relationship with Tracker, and the well known fact that we as teachers, always put the students first. However, before we even came onboard, I told Karl Direske "If we are successful at doing the job you're hiring us for,then we won't last a year". There's a reason you don't see the same people on the Instructor Staff year after year. Egos are too fragile at the top, and we by being good at what we do, consequently stepped on those frailties.
Sure enough, we didn't last a year. However, judging from the comments we received from you guys while we were on staff, and the
emails we've received since, we had held up our end of the deal.
Unfortunately, Tracker hasn't honored theirs.
The Scout Protector Class was originally conceived, as well as named by Paul Bonner, Vanessa and myself and taught by the same, for the last 15 years with the Old Man's blessings. Last year Karl informed us that Tracker, for the first time, would collect the tuition for this class and then pay us. Needless to say, Vanessa and I had our misgivings, which were justified, as we are still waiting to receive the several thousand dollars for teaching that class we held the first week of September of 2007. Hell people, Vanessa just received the last of her payroll checks a couple of months ago (She finished working at Tracker in December 07). I'm thinking it was my non-to- subtle reminder to Karl that there are federal laws governing the withholding of an employee's payroll, that finally got Vanessa her last couple of checks.
Even though we have a signed letter from Karl stating that we would be paid for the Scout Protector Class by June 1st of this year, that deadline has come and gone. Vanessa has been in contact with Karl
almost weekly since April of this year. Each time it was some
excuse, but the gist of it was it was that Tracker was broke and just
didn't have the money.
I don't know about you, but in my mind's eye
I'm seeing two Hummers parked in the drive... we should all be that kind of poor. Even "perceived threats" (I called them promises) on my part, which were non physical in nature, had no effect.
What Vanessa and I are asking of you, that is if you thought we had a positive "affect" on your experience at Tracker, is to email Karl at this, his public email address KDireske@TRACKERSCHOOL.COM, and let him know how you feel about them not paying us for services rendered. We only had several hundred of you guys' email addresses, so feel free to pass this on to any other students you think might be interested.
Look guys, I'm no Saint and never claimed to be. However, Vanessa deserves better than this from the individuals at Tracker who constantly claim the high ground, by referring to the rest of society as "The Mindless Gray Masses", a label by the way, we've never agreed with.
Remember, we were the ones walking the roads with you before and after an exercise, shunning a ride out and back, as well as lending an ear when one was needed. Hell, we even tried to call you by your first names, a mental exercise in of itself with a new class every other week.
Truth be told, they were probably expecting a letter from our attorney, but I wanted to give them something more powerful to contend with for now, and I can think of nothing more meaningful or more
powerful, then you guys voicing your opinion concerning this matter.
Please accept our heart felt thanks in advance.
On a different note, Ness and I are both working uniformed security for the County's economic assistance (welfare) buildings. We moved into a 825 square foot "Art Deco" style 10 unit building, which is a 5 minute walk from the lakes here in Minneapolis, 8 minute walk to the gym and also a block away from a nicely stocked grocery store (I've really gotten into the cooking thing). We both ride our bikes to work together at 5:00AM every morning (it was snowing last Friday morning) and couldn't be happier! Instead of just talking about the environment, we're attempting to make ours a smaller "footprint".

Finally, and we mean this from the bottom of our hearts, it was you and only you the students, that made our time at Tracker, memorable... everything else was "smoke and mirrors". :) Oh, I almost forgot, when we first started there we were told by the office staff and instructors to never give out our personal email addresses or phone numbers to you the students (something about "you'd always be bothering us at all hours of the day"). So, being who we are, we put them up on the board every class we could and told you that you could contact us anytime... that offer still stands. My phone number is
(612) *******. Ness's is (612) ****** and her email address is nessherbst@mac.com . Let us know how you're doing. Take care and thanks for the memories.
"May you be granted in life... that which you deserve"

George & Vanessa


Please feel free to contact me with any questions- Peace to you and your family, Tim Flynn Director, St. Louis Association for Primitive Skills and Tracking www.geocities.com/track_stl track_stl@hotmail.com "Where's Your Wild?" ***************** ATTENTION: Please let us know in advance of your attendance plans for upcoming meetings or workshops.
 
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#126 ·
Lief the Lucky, His classes are from Sunday eve at 5pm till about 11am Sat morning. We received 3 great meals a day. How many weekend retreats and seminars are 3 - 5 hundred and you pay for rooms and maybe meals.

Plus it was worth every penny. Most schools you will learn the physical skills, which are great and VERY limited. Any classes after the standard will teach you things you would almost never find unless you stumbled upon someone.

He takes you way beyond anything you could imagine if you were open to it.

Good Luck!
 
#3 ·
I am surprised that he is jsut putting his name on other peoples work like he is. He seems to be simply tagging his name on the efforts of others at this point. Other than his religion/"PHILOSOPHY" courses. LOL
He should be on the list for militia extremist watch list.
He pushes his "PHILOSOPHY" under the guise of Survival Tracker Teachings of the Bushcraft. I find this disgusting.
I will never attend another course.
 
#12 ·
I went to a few of Brown's training and I have to admit he became crazier as he became older. Most people are aware that Tom Brown made up most of his bio but then that is not unusual for wilderness type people, they are constantly reinventing themselves. His tracking skills, which at one time were excellent, seem to have faded as he spends more and more time talking in fantasy than he does in actual reality. Brown was the first person I took a formal outdoor education class from. I thought I learned alot. Now I would say do Elpel or Hood before you took any of TB's classes.

I wouldn't mind the religious context of his classes if they help a little substance. I put up with others trying to force their religious beliefs on me all the time. His classes just have less and less skills being taught and more and more new age ideas being thrown around. Not for me anymore.

BLT
 
#13 ·
Well said. couldn't agree more. It seems to be becoming more and more Cult Like than a school. You can definitely see a division among students who are looking for content vs. the groupies that are sold on the New Age ideology.
No wonder he lost his training contract with the Military. Seems he lost the Search and Rescue stuff as well according to his excuse for getting rid of the HUMMERS. Sounds like he is in financial trouble tho with Karl telling the Instructors that TRACKER is broke and doesn't have the money to pay them.
Maybe he can't afford them any longer. Attendance seems to have declined according to some of the guys. Perhaps his ego has outgrown his pocket book?
 
#15 ·
Reply]
Seriously, what are the specifics. Can anyone give me a number of specific examples that make him cult like? Can anyone describe is "New age" philosophy?

So far I have seen some general accusations, but no nuts and bolts examples of the underlying causes of those generalities.
 
#18 ·
Royal you need to read one of his "biographical" books. When you read them remind yourself that Tom is telling stories of incredible detail about a man named grandfather who of which there is no proof he ever existed. Not to mention the level of detail he sites from when he was 7 to 10 or so years old. It is a load of horseshlt.

From his original story of Grandfather to his new one he changes his entire meeting with Grandfather from one that is normal to one that is now mythical and epic.

He meets him from his friend Rick. Now the new story is that he and grandfather saw each other in a vision through "talking stones" years before they met.(I shlt you not)

Tom then blames editors for messing up the story haha. It is nothing more than snowballing his own legend as he became more popular.

That is just a tiny example of the bullshlt in his books.
 
#76 ·
Grandfather walked up to Tom when Tom was 7 years old. The editors didn't feel that this was a good thing to put into a book - old men approching 7 year old boys, so they changed it in his earlier books. They made Stalking Wolf into Rick's Grandfather (He was actually Rick's great uncle if I have my term right. Stalking Wolf was Rick's father's uncle).

I don't know why you'd call BS. Maybe it's true or maybe it's not, but it sounds reasonable.
 
#119 ·
I am sad to hear this ( not overly surprised, but saddened )
I read all of his earlier books and field-guides, as they were published, and aside from some of the 'magical mystical' aspects, I learned a great deal.
Granted, I have had an almost lifelong immersion in the Wilderness Survival Arts, so I was able to "Take what I needed, and leave the rest"
It is just unfortunate, that he got 'off track', and away from 'the earth' :(
 
#129 ·
Vanishing Nomad. Tom Elpel took classes w/ Tom Brown Jr. and he says it on the catalog page about Tom Brown and Jon Young. He said that to get Brown's magic, he had to get over the worship he had of Brown since he was a kid. After he did, it was magical. I saw it right a way, how anal and angry Brown was, but his teaching was so profound. Even one class outside of the standard class would do wonders for your passion and the experiences you could have with him. I did things I never did, not even close
 
#23 ·
If you are interested in primitive survival skills I recommend "Outdoor Survival Skills" by Larry Dean Olsen.

Amazon.com: Outdoor Survival Skills: Larry Dean Olsen, Robert Redford: Books

Larry Olsen wrote this book over 30 years ago, and he is the father of the modern primitive survival skills movement. Much of it is tailored specifically to the Great Basin and Rocky Mtns region, but I think most of it can be adapted to survival in other regions too.
 
#25 ·
His tracker knife is usefull, I am sure, but is it any more so than A Kabar? I just don't see it. It is, however, dumb and goofy looking. Others say it's grossly over priced. I am happy with the US Airforce/Army survival knife, and my KA-Bar. I carry both, but you only really need one.
 
#27 ·
I have a tracker knife, im not really impressed with it. It was fun to try it out when i first got it, after awhile i found it to be very unpractical. Maybe the smaller version is better? If i was forced to head out in to the woods i would rather have a hatchet and fixed blade knife. I have also attended the tracker school. In my opinion it was one of the craziest places i have ever been. There is some weird stuff going on there that i cannot explain. I looked into brainwashing techniques and cult recruiting techniques after my 2nd class and it described alot of the things i saw going on there. I dont know if that is what they are doing, but i know that i will never go back to that place. I did meet Mr. Brown when i was there. He is an awesome story teller and an arrogant jerk. My gut tells me he made up his biography. Just my opinion.
 
#28 ·
I think when you try to get a one blade that does all you end up with a one blade that does nothing really well.

I tried reading a couple of his books after they were recommended to me by an ER doc friend of mine. I thought they were BS then. Fun to read but BS.
 
#32 ·
hey toolman, was wondering if you could give examples of the differences you noticed, ive only read the newer books.

When i was attending his school the farther you went the more crazy it got. the guy is huge into black magik, sorcery, spirit conjuring, whatever you want to call it. He claims it is native american religion and good for living with the earth. He also uses spells and chants beliving they work too. Part of his basic philosophy is there is no such thing as right and wrong. Do I dare say there is a criminal element in that school? There is and mr. brown knows all about it. Im wondering how long until it all comes out, and who is he going to pin the blame on?
 
#33 ·
I just took a look at that tracker knife .. what a mess!
No single aspect of that knife makes sense and it just
looks clunky as hell. I'd take a Becker or RAT over it any
day.

A saw tooth edge on the top ridge of a knife is probably
a good option, but it must be long enough to be usable,
not just an inch or two. Same goes for the cutting edge;
interrupting the smooth cutting profile with stylish whoop-
dee-doos is just BS artwork that inhibits cutting ability.

Finally, leather is probably the worst sheath material you
can find for a survival blade. The tracker knife, IMHO, is
eye candy for romancing D&D types into buying one.

As for the course: well, it sounds like wild fruitcake in the
boonies to me.
 
#34 ·
in defense of Tom brown Jr. debunking the debunkers..

Hi everyone- OK..i read through the things people were saying about TBJ. The payment issues and the controversy etc..the religion things- the cult ideas..etc etc etc..i don't buy it- i have to say although Ive never met the guy- i have to stand up for him- what i do know is 1. i have read every book he has ever written- twice! 2. i have practiced all his teachings as best i could. 3. i knew a guy who i am going to keep anonymous who paid 5000.00 to spend a week alone with him and i will tell you about what he has told me - this man i speak of is extremely reliable as a witness testimony and i have known him for years - i know he walks his truth- is a Taoist- and is one of the most highly respected people in my community. an activist etc.

this guy who ill refer to as john- told me some amazing things about his time with TBJ... about experiences i could only call psychic and true to what tom teaches in "awakening spirits" in my opinion the guy is bona-fide. he has been the biggest influence in my life to date and has led me to discover, some amazing skills unrelated to what Tom teaches in his earth based philosophy. All this just through what his books teach!!
water-tracking being one of them...(ask me about that sometime- perhaps its one thing Tom doesn't teach or at least i hope so cuz my ego wants that teaching to be my discovery!..lol) anyway the things John told me about were in direct line with what Tom teaches and speaks about- and one thing all agree on about Tom- the guy is a master tracker! Im sure if people dug deep enough they would find there are eye witness accounts of stalking wolf by people who grew up with tom... has anyone thought to ask Toms parents or relatives about the facts??? or even asked Tom himself to take him to the house or people he healed the women in the vision? asked Tom for Proof?...im sure if we dug for it we would find the evidence..

John told me he easily helped my friend find that inner vision. and could see things far beyond the area they were in.. he also told me a time when Tom dipped his foot into a stream and was able to tell what animals were up ahead. I asked John if he thought Tom and Stalking wolf were fake?..and he said he doubted it..and he paid 5000.00 for 7 days alone with him. to me if he'd got screwed out of 5000.00, id have heard about that. but my friend was satisfied and recommended his courses to me which i plan on taking one or two of..although for my path- they are not really applicable too much.

if you agree- and people here have- that Tom goes into unreal detail in his books..its almost impossible to make up that stuff with such accuracy and consistency- the case of real life being stranger than fiction...that somewhere in his book there would be contradictions and to date i have scoured them looking for flaws and i cannot find much. there is the odd little inconsistency - like how in the Tracker he explains how he and Rick took kung-fu around when he would have been about 13...and somehow after that he learned wolverine fighting skills-to be fair there is a problem here because Tom at this point would have had years with Stalking wolf - why would he need to learn kung-fu? if he was being taught the sacred fighting skills?? and he did spend a lot of time in society because he used guide books and field guides etc. not all was taught by stalking wolf...but you cannot learn what tom knows from trial and error and field guides...the fox walk alone and the weasel walk is long long forgotten skills ...no one even knew about them till Tom came on the scene- to me that says he was taught!...by and large even if there is some embellishment- it cannot be so much that his whole story is fake...i trust there was a stalking wolf because i consider myself to be pretty aware in nature because i grew up in it...feel i am pretty in tune with nature and Toms stuff is genius and puts my way of thinking to shame at times leaves me in awe of how he could know so much.... he amazes me with his straightforward and simplistic ways...someone had to have taught him the stuff he knows its impossible he just invented it all- his teachings are all encompassing - practical and incredibly detailed and provable. and i for one would in no way be able to learn all of what Tom did in just one lifetime without a guru or teacher.- no way - no how- i don't care how smart you may be..that would be impossible unless someone taught you-- ive watched Mr Mears and Toms philosophy and abilities far outreach his. .... but that's just my two cents...lol--
in the end ..if you become better and learn new skills and new fulfilling ways to live and find yourself in tune with nature in more profound ways through what Tom teaches-- does it matter if stalking wolf existed or not??
 
#42 ·
Hi everyone-
OMG!
Hi Tom....getting so desperate you need to cop alter egos and bomb a thread?
You guys gotta read this wackos thread on how he can track fish in the ocean based on the sound of waves hitting the hull of a boat.
It's a riot.

What I have heard about Brown:
Tom Brown has lost his friggin mind.
He learned what he initially learned about bushcraft from the Society of Primitive Technology in New Jersey.
He took classes there and is remembered by the instructors.
He's a huge fraud. There was no Stalking Wolf or a Rick.
No one but Tom and apparently his politician brother know or have ever seen Stinky Drunk or Rick.
He marketed himself and his school well.
He hired, initially anyway, very competent instructors from the university where HE LEARNED from their anthropology program that ran the Society.
Mind you much of that is hearsay but it's hearsay from numerous sources.
He writes conflicting accounts of the same incident(shot twice in the exact same spot in his back by two different people but has never been hospitalized for a severe gunshot wound).
Claims he hunted assassins for the government.......yup....another CIA agent I guess.
Says he tracked and defeated a bunch of UDT in some field exercise somewhere.
He can make himself invisible.


I know a dude who took one of his classes and walked out about 4 hours into it.
He said it was just wacky, Tom was supposed to be teaching it but the class was told he was off doing things for the government....last minute high security stuff.
The dooods a looon
 
#35 ·
How does a (presumably) grown man get so enamored with another person? This is mysticism meant to sucker cash out of willing participants-the guy is a preacher. It's questionable enough for someone who espouses the ideas of simpler living, a stronger connection to the earth and spirits to be asking so much cash for the "privilege". Your friend spent $5000 for one week, what makes you so sure he'd be dying to tell you he thought it was a total waste and what a fool he was.

Something tells me by your sudden appearance, and the blathering on about nonsense, that this is wasted breath.
 
#40 ·
I have to give you a BIG AMEN on that one. :thumb:

Funny how being new to the Forum and he jumps on this Thread and that long of a post for a 1ST POST. WOW...Sounds like damage control from Tracker Police.:rolleyes:

I know prostitution you paying to do the screwing but what is it when you pay to be screwed??:confused:

did I really just say that..hmmmm...
 
#36 ·
My brother went out to NJ to the TB school, spent his time there, and came back jaded by his interaction with the "great" Tom Brown. The guy acted like a complete jerk to almost everyone there, including my brother. As for the things in his books, all that stuff already has been written about in multitudes of other books, nothing is new there. Personally, I am only impressed with his ability to sell himself, and his books. That is good capitalism in action. He invented a product, and then figured out how to market it effectively. His "religion" I could care less about, however. His supposed Apache Yoda, ha! That's just my opinion, of course. Could be wrong. Personally, my only "Yoda", Sensei, etc., is Jesus of Nazareth. All others are pretenders.
 
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