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Old 09-20-2012, 12:18 PM
Jeff_H Jeff_H is offline
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Default Manual Pump for shallow well and electric pump.



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Hi,
I hope I'm posting this to a reasonably close forum for the subject.
I want to have a shallow well drilled primarily for survival source of water in case the city water goes away. Truthfully, I'd rather have a deep well with the better quality water, but I'm told the city won't allow it. So, I'm sort of stuck with a shallow well and filtering for fresh water source. My primary reason for the well is for operation using a hand pump, however since I'm doing it I also need an electric pump for a sprinkler system.
I guess what I want to know is whether anyone has this setup such that a pitcher pump coexists with an electric pump in a sealed well. What diameter would need to be drilled and what components? I had looked at this Lehman's pump - http://www.lehmans.com/store/Water__...__291682?Args=
I liked that it could pump uphill. I thought maybe getting a storage tank as well.

Anyone with experience?

Jeff
Old 09-20-2012, 02:22 PM
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I once saw a manual pump that looked like one of "stair-stepper" machines you see at the gym. You climbed up on the thing and began pumping with your legs and the well water came gushing out. Seeing as how our legs are way stronger than our arms, it seems like you could move a lot more water that way.
Old 09-20-2012, 02:26 PM
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Good choice on the handpump.

Here is a selection of self-priming electric pumps. http://www1.mscdirect.com/eCommerce/...rchandizedOk=N 3/4hp to 3hp. I'd go with a 2" well, at least 30 feet deep, if that is enough in your area. If not, go to a 4" well as deep as necessary and use a 2" drop pipe. Either way, the water level needs to be somewhat higher than 20' down when pumping. I'd not go over the 2hp pump, and that only if the well will produce 60 gpm. Less than that, get the pump that matches the output of the well. (Shop around. The link is just for reference.) I highly recommend Goulds pumps, by the way.

To hook both pumps to the well, (using galvanized pipe and fittings) put a 2" cross (or two 2" tees) on top of the well. On the top of the cross reduce the 2" to 1 1/4" pipe, add a nipple and 1 1/4" brass check valve, another longer nipple and screw on the pump.

In one of the side outlets of the 2" cross, connect the electric pump, using any reducer that might be needed, a check valve of the same size as the pump inlet, a nipple and union, another nipple into the pump. Though the self-priming pump has a flapper check valve in it, it can't be depended on to hold against the suction from the hand pump, thus the brass check valve.

On the other side of the 2" cross redice the 2" to 1" with a bushing and add a nipple and 1" gate valve. Go ahead and screw a 1" plug into the open end of the valve to reduce the chances of air being pulled through the valve.

The valve is to allow air into the well if it is freezing weather so it won't freeze. You will need to unscrew the pump and put something over the nipple to protect it and prevent contamination. Don't hard cap it as there will be water in it. You want to allow it to freeze and push up, not down against the check valve. Disconnect the electric pump and drain it. Put something over the remaining half of the union to prevent any contamination. You can still use the pumps in freezing weather, you just need to reconnect them and then disconnect again. They won't freeze while being used. There is a way to leave them hooked up and protect them from freezing, but it is complicated. PM me if you want to go that way. (Or just have them in a structure where they can't freeze.)

Be sure to build a platform for the hand pump if the well is plastic pipe. Probably not necessary for a galvanized pipe well.

Just my opinion.
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Old 09-21-2012, 07:24 AM
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Hi Jerry,
I will pass along your comments to my well driller. It's not that mechanical things are above me; I just don't have the experience with wells and pumps enough to adequately follow your recommendations. I have been hoping to find a manufacturer who has an electric pump with an optional pass-through, hand pump with all the parts and support required from one vendor. In fact, I'm kind of shocked that I cannot find such a thing, particularly given the increased need to provide oneself with an adequate emergency water supply. I say "increased need" based on the marxists who are running our government and our country into the ground.
This brings up another question - would I be better off building some kind of rain barrell/cistern than filtering shallow well water? Maybe both would be a good move.
I guess it also depends on how good the quality of the well water is.
Old 09-21-2012, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiddler View Post
I once saw a manual pump that looked like one of "stair-stepper" machines you see at the gym. You climbed up on the thing and began pumping with your legs and the well water came gushing out. Seeing as how our legs are way stronger than our arms, it seems like you could move a lot more water that way.
Fiddler, I agree with you in regard to what I've been reading about with deep well manual pumps. I would think that a chair with push peddles would be a great idea since I heard it is very hard to use one of those hand pumps over a hundred feet.
As for shallow wells, it probaby is more a matter that you'd be faster and more efficient, but certainly a pitcher pump would take up less space than your stair stepper. :-)
Old 09-21-2012, 07:58 AM
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Jeff, I would add the rainwater harvest simply as a given, even if you do get the well installed. But rain can be very sporadic, and a good well should provide water whenever you need it. When it comes to water, you need a primary source, secondary source, reserve source, back up source, emergency source and the means to purify it from any of those sources.

I don't know of any pump models that are feed through. You could set up the same system as a feed through, but it is much more complicated, not as efficient, and if you have to work on the electric pump, it pretty much takes the hand pump out, too.

I'll try to draw up something showing what I was explaining, but Fridays aren't good days for me. I will get around to it, though.
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Old 09-21-2012, 08:22 AM
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If you want to go electric than you have to know that you need a pump with a wattage of 1500W to push up to 5o m. The flow is already small. Do not expect more than 1000 liters per hour.


In fact we did drill a 80m deep well in africa for our own supply.
But these (stainless steel)pumps aren't cheap. You need to be able to supply 2000W for the pump and you need a thick silicone isolated power cable with a diameter of minimum 2.5mm².

The output is limited due to the storagge of water in the well, but you can fill up two drums of 200 liter within a couple of minutes.

The diameter of the well we use is about 5" to 6 " therefore the amount of stored water is limited. Bigger diameter drilling is possible, but expensive.
The more you use the well the more water you can pump due to faster refill and cleaning of the ground.

Hope that helps a bit.
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Old 09-21-2012, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry D Young View Post
Jeff, I would add the rainwater harvest simply as a given, even if you do get the well installed. But rain can be very sporadic, and a good well should provide water whenever you need it. When it comes to water, you need a primary source, secondary source, reserve source, back up source, emergency source and the means to purify it from any of those sources.

I don't know of any pump models that are feed through. You could set up the same system as a feed through, but it is much more complicated, not as efficient, and if you have to work on the electric pump, it pretty much takes the hand pump out, too.

I'll try to draw up something showing what I was explaining, but Fridays aren't good days for me. I will get around to it, though.
Thanks Jerry,
check out this Bison video ...
It seems so simple and would provide what I need. The problem is that I'm
not sure what the existing system is that they're splicing into. They say it's a submersible pump and then there's a hose they cut into that goes to a pressurized tank. He also talks about "inside the house". Could this submersible pump and the location of the well itself be many feet away outside house? If so, is the hand pump limitation of 25 feet only the vertical distance and would not include any horizontal distance traversed by that black pipe?
http://www.bisonpumps.com/resources-...ater-pumps.htm
Old 09-21-2012, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weasel View Post
If you want to go electric than you have to know that you need a pump with a wattage of 1500W to push up to 5o m. The flow is already small. Do not expect more than 1000 liters per hour.

weasel
Hi Weasel,
this is just a shallow well I'm talking about drilling, and it will only be for emergency water and sprinkler system. So, no need for that kind of thruput.

Jeff
Old 09-21-2012, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
Thanks Jerry,
check out this Bison video ...
It seems so simple and would provide what I need. The problem is that I'm
not sure what the existing system is that they're splicing into. They say it's a submersible pump and then there's a hose they cut into that goes to a pressurized tank. He also talks about "inside the house". Could this submersible pump and the location of the well itself be many feet away outside house? If so, is the hand pump limitation of 25 feet only the vertical distance and would not include any horizontal distance traversed by that black pipe?
http://www.bisonpumps.com/resources-...ater-pumps.htm
You can splice into the water line coming from a deep well at a distance from the house. You'll be pulling water with the hand pump through the deep well pump and that length of line. The 25' depth is with a straight lift. A little bit of head is added by going through the deep well pump and all that length of line. But that amounts to losing only a fraction of an inch of pumping depth for each foot of horizontal run, but it can add up. I honestly don't think you want to do it that way with a shallow well.

Here is the drawing I said I would do to try and help illustrate what I said in the post. I know this will work as I've hooked systems up like this. The key is how much is the draw down when the electric pump is running. As long as it is above the top of the well screen or drop pipe, you'll certainly be okay with the hand pump. But you need to size the electric pump to the output of the well so you don't over pump it.

If you have further questions feel free to ask.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Dual pump set up.pdf (20.7 KB, 52 views)
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Old 09-21-2012, 09:03 PM
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Might wanna look at this article. I haven't tried though.
http://www.motherearthnews.com/do-it...z84zloeck.aspx
Old 09-22-2012, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry D Young View Post
You can splice into the water line coming from a deep well at a distance from the house. You'll be pulling water with the hand pump through the deep well pump and that length of line. The 25' depth is with a straight lift. A little bit of head is added by going through the deep well pump and all that length of line. But that amounts to losing only a fraction of an inch of pumping depth for each foot of horizontal run, but it can add up. I honestly don't think you want to do it that way with a shallow well.

Here is the drawing I said I would do to try and help illustrate what I said in the post. I know this will work as I've hooked systems up like this. The key is how much is the draw down when the electric pump is running. As long as it is above the top of the well screen or drop pipe, you'll certainly be okay with the hand pump. But you need to size the electric pump to the output of the well so you don't over pump it.

If you have further questions feel free to ask.
Hi Jerry,
unfortunately, I'm not getting email notifications when updates are made to this thread. It is not enabled by default. After I started this thread, I enabled it, so maybe it has to be enabled before the thread is created.
Anyway, thanks again for the information and excellent drawing. I will also show this to my well guy and see if he thinks he can do it.

Jeff
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Old 09-22-2012, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanBTGoG View Post
Might wanna look at this article. I haven't tried though.
http://www.motherearthnews.com/do-it...z84zloeck.aspx

Hi Larrikin,
thanks for the url. I'll have to study several of these methods and see what looks the best. I'm really very surprised there is not a one vendor solution to this question. It just seems like some electric pump vendor would have a add-on pitcher pump kit to some electric motor(s). I'd buy it.

Thanks again guys. I might consider just doing a hand pump because I really have to have that work correctly. I cannot afford to jeopardize it by merging it and an electric pump and not have one or both work properly.
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Old 09-22-2012, 11:41 AM
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Jerry has the correct diagram shown for putting a hand pump in with a electric pump.

I usually put a ball valve in instead of a check valve right before the hand pump. Both will work , a ball valve has a longer life expectancey and is more functional. You can put a check valve between the hand pump and ball valve also fot double protection and ease of maintenence.
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Old 09-22-2012, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nimmer View Post
Jerry has the correct diagram shown for putting a hand pump in with a electric pump.

I usually put a ball valve in instead of a check valve right before the hand pump. Both will work , a ball valve has a longer life expectancey and is more functional. You can put a check valve between the hand pump and ball valve also fot double protection and ease of maintenence.
Thanks Nimmer.
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