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Old 01-17-2017, 08:23 PM
dmas dmas is offline
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Default New gas engines with compression ignition



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Old 01-17-2017, 08:40 PM
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Pretty cool,
That is no easy trick. NOX and detonation become a real problem at those comp. ratios.
Old 01-17-2017, 08:45 PM
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Maybe they use an SCR catalyst to reduce the NOX
 
Old 01-18-2017, 12:06 AM
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Can't imagine these will be available for "ordinary people". Purpose-built racing machines, maybe. But grocery getters? or Soccer Mom chariots? Too many variables. Too many ways to go wrong.

But then, they got some clever cookies at Mazda. So maybe they've cracked the code on this. I'll be impressed if it's all true.


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Old 01-18-2017, 12:47 AM
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It's been tried by quite a few but all have previously abandoned it. I'm always interested in new tech just for the sake of ideas. Do I see it coming to fruition? No. But good luck Mazda... prove me wrong!


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Old 01-18-2017, 09:12 PM
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Shouldn't be a terrible hurdle, essentially you are modeling the diesel combustion process, and with today's technology, is doable.

It is but a short hop from the DI gasoline engines that have been out for a decade now to compression ignition.

Another technology enabled engine that will be making its mark very soon............

http://www.hybridcars.com/achates-op...-size-pickups/

This one could really rock the market.
Old 01-19-2017, 08:11 AM
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GM was working on it when they went bankrupt. Honda, Hyundai, Mazda, etc. No matter what they do - diesel fuel has more work-energy per gallon, as compared to gasoline.
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Old 01-19-2017, 08:35 AM
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In theory it is a simple concept. You can manage detonation by changing injection timing and the cutoff ratio in response to a knock sensor.

The problems come in when trying to make it meet emissions standards, be as user-friendly as normal otto cycle engines, and maintain durability.

Raising the geometric compression ratio to 18:1 is one thing, but you can adjust the effective compression ratio with variable valve timing. By adjusting the effective compression ratio at various speeds, you effect the dynamic compression ratio.
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Old 01-19-2017, 10:23 AM
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The old muscle cars had high compression. I had a 1965 Corvette that was 13:1. The Mazda engines are 14:1. Most diesels are well over 20:1 compression.

This is really interesting in the fact that diesel technology still has a very steep learning curve. We are likely to have some major tech break throughs in the near future. Racing for 24 hours at LeMans has pushed the envelope of diesel tech. Now diesel knowledge is being adopted by gas engines. I hope this cross-pollinization continues.

Increasing the mileage of gas engines another 30 % has massive implications when it comes to oil production and global trade, not mention world politics and the need to fight wars over it.
Old 01-19-2017, 10:55 AM
gungatim gungatim is offline
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didn't cox airplane engines use CI back in the 60's/70's? I seem to recall no spark plugs on the little engines...

hopefully the engineers and gov't will make vehicles and their engines as complicated as possible, simple and reliable is never good. maybe the automotive industry will take over where the space program left off....
Old 01-19-2017, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gungatim View Post
didn't cox airplane engines use CI back in the 60's/70's? I seem to recall no spark plugs on the little engines...
The ones I know of were "semi-diesels" and did not use true compression-ignition. Had a glow-coil. To start you hooked a battery to it. Once started, internal-combustion heat kept the coil glowing. Many old farm tractors worked the same way (semi-diesel hot-bulb engines).
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Old 01-19-2017, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ppine View Post
The old muscle cars had high compression. I had a 1965 Corvette that was 13:1. The Mazda engines are 14:1. Most diesels are well over 20:1 compression.
Not many direct-injected turbocharged diesels with a mechanical CR over 17 to 1 that I am aware of.

In 1965, I don't think the technology existed to safely operate a gas engine at 13 to 1 on standard pump gas. Most of the hottest muscle cars I am aware of (or had) were maxed out at 11 to 1. I know GM made some special edition engines in 1963 primarily just for racing that had 13.5 to 1 like the first 427.
I thought the hottest engine Chevy offered in 1965 was the 425 horse 396 with 11 to 1 CR.
Old 01-20-2017, 09:05 AM
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In 1965 the hi-po small block made 365 hp. It might have 12.8:1 or something like that. It definitely liked high test gasoline.

Maybe my memory is off, but the numbers above are how I remember it.
Old 01-20-2017, 12:25 PM
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1965 Chevy

327 L30 10.5 to 1 CR 275 HP

327 L74 10.5 to 1 CR 300 HP

327 L79 11 to 1 CR 350 HP

327 L76 11 to 1 CR 365 HP

327 L84 FI 11 to 1 CR 375 HP

396 L78 11 to 1 CR 425 HP
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Old 01-20-2017, 01:44 PM
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There's a reason many of those hi-po motors didn't last very long.
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Old 01-20-2017, 01:53 PM
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Those old engines used the higher octane because it burns slower.
That knocking and pinging comes from two flame fronts starting in the same combustion chamber at the same time.
I think it's amazing Mazda can run 14:1 compression on regular gas, mechanical voodoo I guess
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Old 01-23-2017, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdemaris View Post
GM was working on it when they went bankrupt. Honda, Hyundai, Mazda, etc. No matter what they do - diesel fuel has more work-energy per gallon, as compared to gasoline.
We purchase fuel by the gallon, so we tend to think that is the measure that matters.

However, with aircraft, it's the weight of the fuel that matters, not the gallons.

Gasoline and Diesel fuel are extremely closely matched when comparing energy and weight (mass) .

Some new European truck engines run on Ethanol. They achieve 43% thermal efficiency, by mass, just like their diesel counterparts. They simply consume more fuel by volume (not by weight) .

However, the ethanol truck is not carrying more weight in fuel to achieve a particular task. Many people misunderstand this.

I believe we need to get over the measurement by volume, and purchase fuel by energy content.
Old 01-23-2017, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cujet View Post
We purchase fuel by the gallon, so we tend to think that is the measure that matters.

I believe we need to get over the measurement by volume, and purchase fuel by energy content.
I suspect some places are already basically charging per BTU energy content even though we see it priced per gallon. Like when I moved out of New York when gasoline was $2.90 per gallon and diesel was $4.15 per gallon. Kind of wipes out the diesel advantage.

I for one do not want to learn some new convoluted measurement system - like instead of asking for $20 worth of gas - asking for "1,100,000 BTUs please." The so-called conversion to Metric that never happened is bad enough.
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Old 01-23-2017, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajole View Post
There's a reason many of those hi-po motors didn't last very long.
Mostly a function of how people drove them. There have been built small block Chevy engines that can run at 9-10,000 RPMs or more.
Old 01-23-2017, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ppine View Post
Mostly a function of how people drove them. There have been built small block Chevy engines that can run at 9-10,000 RPMs or more.
Not to mention the requirement of looser clearances due to machining technology at the time, When you spun them up, you needed greater clearances ( and requisite thicker oil and higher oil pressure ) to assure that nothing touched.

They build WAY more horsepower today than we drove back then, they spin the bejesus out of then relative to our old hipo stuff, and yet they don't grenade.

That's not only a function of proper engineering, it is a huge testament to the uber precise machining the factories have made commonplace.
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