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Old 01-06-2017, 04:52 PM
kx250kev kx250kev is offline
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Default BOV steel vs non-steel wheels/rims



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What wheels/rims do you have on your BOV? I've slid off iced roads with steel rims and hit a curb head on. The rim bent and wobbled, but the tire retained air. I also had a rim bead bend on my old travel trailer without a blow out. Just pounded it back into shape. I often see police cruisers with bland steel rims, and I'm thinking this is by design. What are your thoughts on this as being a more robust arrangement that aluminum/cast wheels.
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Old 01-06-2017, 05:01 PM
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What wheels/rims do you have on your BOV? I've slid off iced roads with steel rims and hit a curb head on. The rim bent and wobbled, but the tire retained air. I also had a rim bead bend on my old travel trailer without a blow out. Just pounded it back into shape. I often see police cruisers with bland steel rims, and I'm thinking this is by design. What are your thoughts on this as being a more robust arrangement that aluminum/cast wheels.
Cheaper, easier to repair, less likely to be stolen, and while forged alloy can be stronger than steel, most alloy wheels are cast, and NOT as strong as basic steel wheels.

The only advantages similarly priced alloys have over steel is weight savings, and looks.

You can spend more to get an alloy rim with more strength, but if/when that stronger wheel has a problem...you will have a hard time fixing it without specialized materials and equipment.

Make your decision based on your situation, skills and preps.
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Old 01-06-2017, 06:02 PM
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More important, how many extra you have...
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Old 01-06-2017, 11:46 PM
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One thing I have noticed over the years is that the bead retention on steel wheels doesn't seem to be as good as aluminum wheels. Typically, I think steel wheels are formed into a shape with a more rounded safety bead. Depending on manufacturing tolerances this fit can seem a little loose.

Aluminum wheels are typically cast or forged. Most of the wheels typically have machine marks from secondary processing. I believe this allows aluminum wheels, depending on the mfg specs, to have a tighter bead diameter. The safety bead lip can also be a sharper design which allows the tire to stay on the rim a little better. I have definitely seen some mfgs that have VERY tight wheels, other not as much.

The general reason why I mention this is bead retention when airing down the tires for more traction. I believe that is one of the best things you can do for overall vehicle performance in adverse, or off-road, conditions.

I've been pretty hard on both versions of the years. Honestly, I haven't had many issues with either as far as durability. Both eventually will get torn up if you drive long enough in the rocks.

I will say that a steel wheel can be hammered back into shape if you do manage to bend it. An aluminum wheel, especially cast versions, will typically just crack out a chunk. I have seen steel wheels rip the outer edge which isn't really field repairable for the most part.

The other thing is weight. Steel wheels are typically much heavier than the same size aluminum wheel. That won't count towards payload, but rotating mass sure takes a chunk out of vehicle performance both in acceleration and braking.
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Old 01-07-2017, 06:40 AM
Potawami II Potawami II is offline
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Maybe I'm just old but I don't want my truck riding around on my recycled beer cans.
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Old 01-07-2017, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by ajole View Post
Cheaper, easier to repair, less likely to be stolen, and while forged alloy can be stronger than steel, most alloy wheels are cast, and NOT as strong as basic steel wheels.

The only advantages similarly priced alloys have over steel is weight savings, and looks.
Not certain how this can be. Aluminum wheels (we can call them 'alloy', but that's just marketing thing, they're still just aluminum) cannot be as strong as a steel wheel of the same size.

So I agree, they're not as strong, I just don't see where they ever can be as strong without some serious stacking of the deck.

Though they can certainly be strong ENOUGH. And, for the size, they are certainly lighter (about 1/3 the weight). But that only matters if it matters.
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One thing I have noticed over the years is that the bead retention on steel wheels doesn't seem to be as good as aluminum wheels. Typically, I think steel wheels are formed into a shape with a more rounded safety bead. Depending on manufacturing tolerances this fit can seem a little loose.
The bead shape is a standard. A whole lot of steel wheels came out of Kelsey-Hayes in Sedalia, MO.

Like any forming process, tooling gets old, people are out to make it cheaper and quicker, and there's always some middle manager that's ready to say "that's not the way we used to do it, but it still meets the standard." Whether it's steel wheels, truck beds, or rifle brass, we've all seen it.

In the day of CNC machining, forming is becoming a lost art. It makes the accountants (they're the ones in charge, now) all jittery and squeamish. The tooling is solid and heavy and expensive. The oils and heat make the EPA all nosy and stern. And someone running the machine STILL has to know how to do it and he was just laid off to hire a youngster... or move it to India. This adds up to a bottom line that moves around. Accountants lose sleep over that.

Knowing no other solution - because in our day, 'higher quality' is seldom a solution - they let the radius slide a little; maybe let the concentricity slide a bit; and are always on the lookout for a lighter gauge, cheaper steel to use.

I agree with your concerns, btw. But if a guy keeps a sharp eye open and looks for very old wheels, the good stuff is still out there.
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Steel wheels are typically much heavier than the same size aluminum wheel. That won't count towards payload, but rotating mass sure takes a chunk out of vehicle performance both in acceleration and braking.
It will not.
This is a myth promulgated by off road shows and magazines trying to keep sponsorships for high-priced braking products. It sounds right, but is not true. Or, more accurately, the things they say about 'added mass' is tacitly true, but is not the whole truth.

"Rotating mass" in acceleration only really applies to engine parts. Everyone else is just along for the ride.

And in stopping, the entire mass of the vehicle is being arrested. The size, shape, and weight of the wheel/tire assembly is just more (or less) mass and nothing more than that. Adding 50lbs of weight in wheels is no different than adding a 50lb sandbag as far as the brakes are concerned.

Remember, the biggest variable in any vehicle is the DRIVER.

But in answer to the OP, on a Bugout Vehicle, for a Survival Bugout and not some 'happy fun personal bugout', I definitely have steel wheels. They're strong. They mend. And now that you got me thinking about it, I might just add some bolsters to them. Thanks.



DS
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Old 01-07-2017, 12:26 PM
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We, sports car road course, race on alloys wheels. Curb them, go off course and hit a rock, or make wheel to wheel contact with another car and they break you get a flat.

Nascar races on steel wheels. They can take big hits which bend the rim but chunks don't fly off, they tire stays sealed enough to get you back to the pit.

When was the last time you saw alloy wheels on a rock crawler? There is a reason for that. They do run bead locks for when they lower the pressures.

My off roader has steel wheels. My sport SUV has alloy wheels.
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Old 01-07-2017, 12:42 PM
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It will not.
This is a myth promulgated by off road shows and magazines trying to keep sponsorships for high-priced braking products. It sounds right, but is not true. Or, more accurately, the things they say about 'added mass' is tacitly true, but is not the whole truth.

"Rotating mass" in acceleration only really applies to engine parts. Everyone else is just along for the ride.

And in stopping, the entire mass of the vehicle is being arrested. The size, shape, and weight of the wheel/tire assembly is just more (or less) mass and nothing more than that. Adding 50lbs of weight in wheels is no different than adding a 50lb sandbag as far as the brakes are concerned.

DS
Sorry, I disagree. A change in mass, at the same radius, has a BIG effect on rotational kinetic energy. That is basically moment of inertia. What we don't really know is the distribution of that rotational mass. That is the hard part. If all the additional mass is concentrated near the center of rotation it doesn't have a huge effect. If the increase in mass is mainly at the outer limits of the radius of the object spinning it has a much larger effect on the system.
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Old 01-07-2017, 12:54 PM
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When was the last time you saw alloy wheels on a rock crawler? There is a reason for that. They do run bead locks for when they lower the pressures.
Um.....all the time?

2016 King of the Hammers winner...

http://www.drivingline.com/articles/...h-winning-car/

Alloy wheels.

2016 WeRock rock crawling champion....alloy
2016 Baja 1000 trophy truck class winner...alloy

There are very few companies actually making steel beadlock wheels compared to manufacturers that make alloy based wheels. Alloy wheels have basically completely taken over all aspects of the sport. Many people run beadlocks, yes. That isn't generally always about bead retention, but also about the durability of the outer bead of the rim along, the ease of replacement of the exposed edge of the wheel, and to prevent rotation of the tire on the rim at lower pressures. All that said, the inner bead on most beadlock wheels is a typical design and exposed to a lot of the same conditions.
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Old 01-07-2017, 01:07 PM
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I ve repaired alloy rims or people.... I weld for a living, and our local roads are pot hole filled... As lond as people use lowprofile tires and rims? .... I have a extra income.
Old 01-07-2017, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dyingslower View Post
Not certain how this can be. Aluminum wheels (we can call them 'alloy', but that's just marketing thing, they're still just aluminum) cannot be as strong as a steel wheel of the same size.

So I agree, they're not as strong, I just don't see where they ever can be as strong without some serious stacking of the deck.

Though they can certainly be strong ENOUGH. And, for the size, they are certainly lighter (about 1/3 the weight). But that only matters if it matters.


The bead shape is a standard. A whole lot of steel wheels came out of Kelsey-Hayes in Sedalia, MO.

Like any forming process, tooling gets old, people are out to make it cheaper and quicker, and there's always some middle manager that's ready to say "that's not the way we used to do it, but it still meets the standard." Whether it's steel wheels, truck beds, or rifle brass, we've all seen it.

In the day of CNC machining, forming is becoming a lost art. It makes the accountants (they're the ones in charge, now) all jittery and squeamish. The tooling is solid and heavy and expensive. The oils and heat make the EPA all nosy and stern. And someone running the machine STILL has to know how to do it and he was just laid off to hire a youngster... or move it to India. This adds up to a bottom line that moves around. Accountants lose sleep over that.

Knowing no other solution - because in our day, 'higher quality' is seldom a solution - they let the radius slide a little; maybe let the concentricity slide a bit; and are always on the lookout for a lighter gauge, cheaper steel to use.

I agree with your concerns, btw. But if a guy keeps a sharp eye open and looks for very old wheels, the good stuff is still out there.


It will not.
This is a myth promulgated by off road shows and magazines trying to keep sponsorships for high-priced braking products. It sounds right, but is not true. Or, more accurately, the things they say about 'added mass' is tacitly true, but is not the whole truth.

"Rotating mass" in acceleration only really applies to engine parts. Everyone else is just along for the ride.

And in stopping, the entire mass of the vehicle is being arrested. The size, shape, and weight of the wheel/tire assembly is just more (or less) mass and nothing more than that. Adding 50lbs of weight in wheels is no different than adding a 50lb sandbag as far as the brakes are concerned.

Remember, the biggest variable in any vehicle is the DRIVER.

But in answer to the OP, on a Bugout Vehicle, for a Survival Bugout and not some 'happy fun personal bugout', I definitely have steel wheels. They're strong. They mend. And now that you got me thinking about it, I might just add some bolsters to them. Thanks.



DS
When you get time Google Unsprung Weight.
The weight of the tire/wheel combo has a drastic effect on braking and acceleration. When braking a lighter wheel/tire combo allows the brakes to work against slowing the vehicle because they don't have to fight the weight of the wheel/tire.
When accelerating the engine doesn't have the additional load of turning a heavier wheel/tire combo.
Also, it improves the steering response because the lighter the combo the less of a gyroscopic effect the wheels have on changes in direction.
That's why drag cars use the lightest wheel possible.
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Old 01-07-2017, 01:54 PM
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Sorry, I disagree. A change in mass, at the same radius, has a BIG effect on rotational kinetic energy. That is basically moment of inertia. What we don't really know is the distribution of that rotational mass. That is the hard part. If all the additional mass is concentrated near the center of rotation it doesn't have a huge effect. If the increase in mass is mainly at the outer limits of the radius of the object spinning it has a much larger effect on the system.
A big change in mass has a big effect; a small change in mass has a small effect. Tires and wheels are a very small fraction of the overall vehicle mass.

While it is true that the moment (radius X force) changes with both wheel and tire changes, and the braking moment remains unchanged because the calipers, and therefore the centroid of the pads, remain at the same radius, so it appears to be an increased moment with respect to an enlarged tire, except the rotational velocity is slower, anyway. But that's only in the case of larger radius tires - which are often mounted on the same size rims.

Locally, the brakes stop the wheels. But with respect to the entire system, the brakes stop the momentum of the vehicle. The momentum is changed almost negligibly with the addition of steel wheels.

DS
Old 01-07-2017, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Revmgt View Post
When you get time Google Unsprung Weight.
The weight of the tire/wheel combo has a drastic effect on braking and acceleration. When braking a lighter wheel/tire combo allows the brakes to work against slowing the vehicle because they don't have to fight the weight of the wheel/tire.
When accelerating the engine doesn't have the additional load of turning a heavier wheel/tire combo.
Also, it improves the steering response because the lighter the combo the less of a gyroscopic effect the wheels have on changes in direction.
That's why drag cars use the lightest wheel possible.
Really? Is that why they put those tiny little tires on the back of a drag car?
So they accelerate faster without that 'additional load'?

Gyroscopic effect? Really? Is this what's on the internet these days?

When you get time, Google... no... wait... when you get time, go get some college classes.

I knew this would happen.


DS
Old 01-07-2017, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dyingslower View Post
A big change in mass has a big effect; a small change in mass has a small effect. Tires and wheels are a very small fraction of the overall vehicle mass.

While it is true that the moment (radius X force) changes with both wheel and tire changes, and the braking moment remains unchanged because the calipers, and therefore the centroid of the pads, remain at the same radius, so it appears to be an increased moment with respect to an enlarged tire, except the rotational velocity is slower, anyway. But that's only in the case of larger radius tires - which are often mounted on the same size rims.

Locally, the brakes stop the wheels. But with respect to the entire system, the brakes stop the momentum of the vehicle. The momentum is changed almost negligibly with the addition of steel wheels.

DS
I'd agree that on a normal vehicle, with OEM size tires/wheels, that changing the wheel material isn't going to have a HUGE effect on vehicle performance. There is only so much we can change the weight of those parts in regards to overall vehicle weight.

I'd agree that the figures you see spouted off in magazines exaggerate the issue, but the physics hold true. A decrease in rotational mass, especially at a larger radius, is going to have a greater effect on vehicle performance than the same decrease in non-rotational mass. I understand where you are coming from, I am just coming from the other side. On some vehicles it is way more cost effective to reduce weight from other places.

Personally, I spend a lot of time in the off-road vehicle world where tires/wheel package take up a significant portion of overall vehicle weight. This is not only an drastic increase in rotational mass which sucks power, but also a drastic increase in the un-sprung weight we have to contend with for suspension tuning as the sprung weight becomes less and less.

Anyhow. I think we agree, but are just coming at it from a different place.
Old 01-07-2017, 06:01 PM
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Um.....all the time?

Okay I stand corrected. I have been out of that sport for a couple decades now, since there is no rocks around here to crawl over.
Old 01-08-2017, 07:04 AM
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Having been in the auto mfg. biz, I can assure you that OEM alloy rims are all castings. Castings are porous. So much so that they have to infuse them with sealant before they are machined, or they leak air. Cast wheels are also brittle. Severe blows can start microcracks which will grow, or leak air. OEM alloy wheels are more for customer preference than functionality, I think. I doubt that any are actually lighter than steel, and they're certainly not cheaper. They may offer less runout, but in my experience 98% of tires have more runout built in than a steel rim is likely to have.

For a rough service vehicle it's steel for me. My OTR van has alloys, but it never sees anything but the occasional pothole. Pickup has steel.

Serious off-road alloy wheels are, (I assume) forgings. The prices I see would seem to bear that out. Forging presses that big are a.)expensive b.)slow
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Old 01-08-2017, 07:26 AM
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It's a common misconception that aluminum doesn't corrode. The corrosion may not be called rust and it may not be red, but that white powder that forms, especially along the bead and in bolt holes, is material that used to be aluminum. Tire shops have a profitable sideline cleaning and resealing aluminum wheels.
Old 01-08-2017, 04:42 PM
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I found the alloy spare of the wife's 2007 SUV totally without air. The tire has never been used. It is mounted by a winch under the rear cargo area. I dropped it down cleaned the bead and reseated it. Still holding air two months later. I suspect that some corrosion occurred around the bead on the side that was up due to water and debris.
Old 01-08-2017, 04:53 PM
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Your better quality alloy wheels are coated in copper, the chromed.... Resist corrosion better.... I still prefer steel for offroad.
Old 01-08-2017, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dyingslower View Post
Really? Is that why they put those tiny little tires on the back of a drag car?
So they accelerate faster without that 'additional load'?

Gyroscopic effect? Really? Is this what's on the internet these days?

When you get time, Google... no... wait... when you get time, go get some college classes.

I knew this would happen.


DS
I didn't say anything about diameter I said weight. Practice your reading before you talk **** to someone, or have someone read it to you, I don't want you to hurt yourself sounding out the words.

Drag cars use the larger tires but get the lightest ones possible because of what I said.
It reduces Unsprung weight.
As for gyroscopic effect, Google angular momentum. All of that is taken into consideration by the engineers when they design the suspension.

Maybe next time try more info than bluster
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