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Old 02-16-2017, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Twilight View Post
Without salt, refrigeration or canning, I believe drying or smoking are your only options. And those are only medium term, not really good for more than a couple months
"smoking" uses nitrate salts as preservative.
Old 02-16-2017, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by RustyBoot View Post
.....Unless you own a large tract of land that's fairly remote and have a means of keeping other hunters off of it, in a true EOTWAWKI situation, you'll have a hard time relying on just hunting as a mainstay of your diet. Livestock (if you have the land) and a good supply of LTS foods are much more reliable.
One of the benefits of having a group of people (like a meat club) that share an interest in the domestic livestock on hand, is that there are enough hands to theoretically provide 24 hour security to protect the animals from all sorts of “varmints”.

CD in Oklahoma
Old 02-16-2017, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Xcellerating View Post
So basically the answer is no. What Im referring to is a scenario that lasts say, indefinitely. The area we live in will require some relocation for sure, but eventually the "preps/storage" will run out. I myself have no problem scavenging through town..but so will the other 100k people around here.
I just gave you a perfect option long term. Growing your own nitrate rich vegetables. Did you dismiss it because work was involved?

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Originally Posted by RustyBoot View Post
Zeke, do you know if all types of celery contain enough nitrites to be useful? Around here, stalk celery is a pain to grow because there are so many things that like to eat it, but leaf celery and root celery (celeriac) do well without much effort. Celeriac can also be stored in a root cellar and leaf celery does okay as a houseplant.
According to this science link you find that celeriac is not as strong a nitrate source.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/90...expansion.html

Excepting beets, most of your highest vegetable sources are green leafy vegetables. But beets are there likely because it is the beet greens that are so high in nitrites. I'm assuming the testers were juicing whole foods. Arugula, celery, cilantro, butter lettuce, water cress, oak leaf lettuce, basil, spinach, and swiss chard all are in the top category.

But how does that functionally help you? Not only do you need sources, but you need amounts as well to do the job. In my reference thread I made a over a year ago, I only found instructions on using beet, celery, and spinach juices. How much would you need to use of something else? As I said in the old thread I'm just learning about this concept too. I don't have precision use information or a ton of experience at it. More research and experimentation is necessary to get useful instructions on using a wide range of vegetable nitrite sources.

While that thread seemed interesting to several people, based on "likes", no one actually chose to participate in the thread. It will take a lot more participation to make it widely useful for preppers.
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Old 02-17-2017, 01:21 PM
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Thanks for the link, Zeke. I'll bookmark that for later. I hadn't seen that earlier thread, but I am interested in the idea, if nothing else than curiosity's sake. Smoking is one of the things I want to eventually learn, but I'm not in a location right now where it's feasible.

MikeK, I have some books on charcuterie on order from the local library. Given their great efficiency, there's a chance they'll arrive sometime in the next decade!
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Old 02-21-2017, 10:25 AM
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Has nothing to do with there being any " work" involved. Thats not the issue. Im just looking for various methods/information for long term. Short term can be adjusted on the fly but once you get to where you'll be then its a whole different ballgame. Basically the way Im looking at it is. Something happens this very second and it wont be fixed anytime soon. ie government break down, nbc scenario, invasion, anything. I have a 6 yr old disabled daughter who is tube fed and cant walk.So I may be limited to scavenging city to city. We'd travel a few miles outside of town, set up, wait until night and go find what can be used. So I may not be able to sit in one area long enough to grow/breed plants or animals. Always have 2-3 plans available because the one plan you count on most likely will never work out the way you planned.
Old 02-21-2017, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Xcellerating View Post
Has nothing to do with there being any " work" involved. Thats not the issue. Im just looking for various methods/information for long term. Short term can be adjusted on the fly but once you get to where you'll be then its a whole different ballgame. Basically the way Im looking at it is. Something happens this very second and it wont be fixed anytime soon. ie government break down, nbc scenario, invasion, anything. I have a 6 yr old disabled daughter who is tube fed and cant walk.So I may be limited to scavenging city to city. We'd travel a few miles outside of town, set up, wait until night and go find what can be used. So I may not be able to sit in one area long enough to grow/breed plants or animals. Always have 2-3 plans available because the one plan you count on most likely will never work out the way you planned.
Scavenging is another word for looting. What good are you to your heavily dependent daughter if you are shot for not having a realistic plan. You can't even guarantee the ability to eat, much less preserve.....much less be able to make special food for enteral feeding, if your plan is to wander like a refugee hoping you won't get shot for looting.

Being a refugee isn't a realistic plan. It's a last ditch prayer plan that has high odds of not ending well.

If you don't want your daughter's end to be parked in a wheel chair alone and starving as the fire burns out because daddy isn't coming back then perhaps you might want to use this time now before the disaster to make better plans.

Diabetics come on this forum all the time asking about how to handle SHTF and when pharmacy supplies run out. For those that must have insulin the answer is actually having insulin. No magic scavenging answer. No fairy dust you can gather off the roadside to solve the problem. The best working answer is being prepared in advance and accepting there are limits even to the best plan. Better to have a safe place to hunker down around supplies carefully hoarded or grown and then riding those as long as you can. Then accepting the limitations involved. Get a better plan than the one you are working on now.

Take your copy of The Road and throw it out. It's not a how-to guide for survival. It's just a depressing movie.
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Old 02-21-2017, 02:41 PM
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Don't forget that dehydrating and/or canning meat (now rather than later) is also a good method of preservation for anyone wanting to learn. I know most of you know that but just throwing it out there. That does however require having a place to hunker down as Zeke said.

Also Zeke, there are a significant number of herbs and things that can actually control blood sugar to some extent. I eat horribly (I work a lot so it's more that I simply don't eat often enough rather than what I'm eating) and had blood sugars that were way out of control. Several supplements later and it's under control.

Will they do the same as insulin? Of course not, but they can help manage things enough to feel better. It's a secondary prep that most diabetics overlook since the majority of people simply aren't interested in taking the time to learn which ones work best. Once the insulin runs out our spoils, those supplements and oils may be the only thing that keeps their blood sugars at least somewhat reasonable.
Old 02-21-2017, 02:43 PM
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Dehydrating is the way to go.
Old 02-21-2017, 06:59 PM
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Don't forget that dehydrating and/or canning meat (now rather than later) is also a good method of preservation for anyone wanting to learn. I know most of you know that but just throwing it out there. That does however require having a place to hunker down as Zeke said.

Also Zeke, there are a significant number of herbs and things that can actually control blood sugar to some extent. I eat horribly (I work a lot so it's more that I simply don't eat often enough rather than what I'm eating) and had blood sugars that were way out of control. Several supplements later and it's under control.

Will they do the same as insulin? Of course not, but they can help manage things enough to feel better. It's a secondary prep that most diabetics overlook since the majority of people simply aren't interested in taking the time to learn which ones work best. Once the insulin runs out our spoils, those supplements and oils may be the only thing that keeps their blood sugars at least somewhat reasonable.
I was referring to those who must take insulin. A Type 1 diabetic needs insulin, not herbs or a diet.

We try to be polite about it here and not say it so bluntly, but some folks will not live through a long term disaster because, well, they are fundamentally broken. Enteral and parenteral feeders (nose tube and IV feeding) are alive because modern science and industry can support them. Just a few decades ago they were hospital or clinic only options. A few decades before that there was nothing but a gentle hand to calm them while they died.

No one can live on a tube feeding diet as a refugee for any realistic amount of time. We can have all the heart and love in the world, but primitive conditions will be remorseless on the infirm. Darwin will get an extra vote.

I can sympathize with this person's plight, but unless they accept that they need a fully supplied fixed location to work from then their child's chances drop to basically zero. And yet instead of accepting this unavoidable fact they flail about asking about unrealistic options as a refugee trying to loot their way to survival. Even the healthy and strong will have a brutal time trying to do that for just a short time. Trying to live off the land is a fool's choice for survival.
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Old 02-21-2017, 07:08 PM
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I couldn't imagine taking my family from town to town hiding out in the woods and hoping to find food at night. Could you imagine your daughter being out in the woods for 3 or 4 days in a continuous rain, or out when a snow storm hits and dumps 10 inches of snow on you.

Start now to get you supplies in order and keep your daughter in her own bed at night.

Not trying to be a smart***, just thinking of your daughter's comfort.

If you are going to a BOL try to have it within a tank of gas away and supplied. You won't have to travel from town to town.

PS: I can meat. It will last a few years. I have been eating bacon that I canned over 4 years old. In that 4 years you could can more meat from hunting or raising meat.
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Old 02-21-2017, 08:05 PM
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I was referring to those who must take insulin. A Type 1 diabetic needs insulin, not herbs or a diet.

We try to be polite about it here and not say it so bluntly, but some folks will not live through a long term disaster because, well, they are fundamentally broken. Enteral and parenteral feeders (nose tube and IV feeding) are alive because modern science and industry can support them. Just a few decades ago they were hospital or clinic only options. A few decades before that there was nothing but a gentle hand to calm them while they died.

No one can live on a tube feeding diet as a refugee for any realistic amount of time. We can have all the heart and love in the world, but primitive conditions will be remorseless on the infirm. Darwin will get an extra vote.

I can sympathize with this person's plight, but unless they accept that they need a fully supplied fixed location to work from then their child's chances drop to basically zero. And yet instead of accepting this unavoidable fact they flail about asking about unrealistic options as a refugee trying to loot their way to survival. Even the healthy and strong will have a brutal time trying to do that for just a short time. Trying to live off the land is a fool's choice for survival.
I know. That's why I tried to convey that they aren't a cure. More of an "extend it until they can't" situation. Can it cure? No. Can it extend their life a bit? Yes. I know as a diabetic myself (albiet type 2), I would want to do everything possible to stick around in a TEOTWAWKI situation; even if it was for no other reason than to assure my daughter's safety or survival for a bit longer. I didn't mean it for the OP. Was more commenting since you had mentioned diabetics. Apologies if it came across that I was directing it at the OP.

My mother is one of those people that you mention and as such, I've had to come to terms with the fact that if things were to become catastrophic nationwide, I would likely never see her again. She is 100% bedridden, in complete renal failure, in a nursing home, etc. In all honesty, if things ever do get that bad, I would hope she would go quickly. Otherwise, she would likely lay there and suffer once staff abandon patients. She's in Ohio and I'm in Texas so at that point, it would be out of my hands. Even if it wasn't, I have a child to think about which means that no matter how much I love my mother, my daughter comes first.

With that said, it seems as if the OP is pretty new to preparing in general. If so, that's likely where his unreasonable plan came from. We were all new once and all of us still have things to learn. It's a good thing he's here. It gives him the chance to learn and (hopefully) take advice from others that have been getting ready for whatever may come for longer.

I may have a slightly skewed view since I'm very Momma Bear about my daughter, but I don't see the harm in trying to prepare for his daughter provided he does it intelligently. He asked here which means he knows that his current plan won't work. He knows her health issues. He also knows the risks of a true SHTF situation and the quality/length of her life after. I would rather see a parent trying to prepare for that situation than see one simply give up, not prepare and condemn the child to death. (No, I'm not trying to say that's what you're suggesting. I know it isn't.)

I stand by canning and dehydrating and, again, like you said, a stocked BOL. If he is willing to learn to smoke or salt meat, he should be willing to learn to can and/or dehydrate. I haven't picked up how to smoke yet, but I can't imagine it would be much harder than canning a quart of meat.

One thing that I do think he needs to think about is how to get that food into the tube. If he's using a finite resource such as Ensure or Pediasure (given her age) that's one thing; but if he's pulverizing it in a blender at home, he needs to find a second and then a third option. That electric blender may not always be an option and eventually Pediasure will run out/expire.
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Old 02-21-2017, 09:33 PM
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All good comments there, OFP.

The first part is to get grounded and reasonable about what happens when business shuts down and then build from that point.

Since being a refugee as a healthy young person has a high fatality risk, and the idea of living off the land has been mostly debunked as improbable, then most preppers accept they have to make survival plans around a fixed structure.

With his special needs he will need to come up with a liquid food plan that is sustainable.

A manual vegetable juicer, and a tons of spares and spare parts, and the foods to put through it.

Home canned goods, a garden plot, and beans. Probably lots of beans of a softer variety. If he can learn to plant field pea beans he would have a good sustainable nutrition base to start from. Sweet potatoes would be smart too. Between field pea beans and sweet potatoes he would have two solid food bases to start from as both are nutrition powerhouses that don't require a lot of additives to form a complete meal. Both are also productive growers and have a wide climate growing range. If he was home canning meat then he would only need the juice from home canned meats to cover the few micronutrients that meat are primary sources of.

Menu One:
Boiled/mashed/strained lentils or field pea beans
Home canned meat broth
Juiced leafy green vegetable
Juiced onion
A pinch of potassium heavy "lite salt"
A pinch of powdered papaya to aid digestion and reduce gas
A small bit of highly pulverized fiber leftover from the juicing steps

Menu Two:
Cooked mashed sweet potato pulp
Juice from home canned fruit
A pinch each of pulverized calcium and magnesium tablets
A bit of smashed soft fruit

Enough added safe water to both to get the necessary consistency for tube feeding.

Food fatigue would set in if that were the only menu options for a normal person but with enteral feeding the food bypasses the mouth and the child has not built up a taste expectation.

Alternating between those two should cover basic nutrition needs.

I would also suggest owning a molcajete to truly mash any included plant fiber added to aid digestion.

Growing citrus would be good if his region can do it. Citrus fiber is easily digested and the juice has lots of natural vitamins.
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