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Old 01-14-2017, 03:19 PM
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One has no honest way to guarantee anything concerning actual combat
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Old 01-14-2017, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by fragout View Post
Would one rifle with the capability to fire in manual operation as well as the capability to fire in semiautomatic form via a simple turn of a slot screw in less than 2 seconds qualify here?

My one rifle for all purpose use ( hunting bunny's to bison, and all forms concerning security) has been the same rifle since 2005.

A custom built M14S tanker using a Norinco reciever, 18in chrome lined tube, synthetic stock, ARMS18 mount, 20rd cmi ss mags, and a spindle valve that works.

Small game hunting via rifle in survival mode uses either my subsonic loads, or 32acp chamber insert ( with or without a can), and spindle valve closed. A fast, simple, and reliable means of allowing the rifle to fire while preventing any residue from entering the gas cylinder. Also keeps the action noise quiet at the initial shot especially.

Very fast an easy to switch out to full on 308 commercial hunting ammunition capable of dropping any critter in this hemisphere with one shot out to 400 yards plus, or 7.62x51mm FMJ/ OTM in manual operation or semi.

If the rifle cannot have any semiauto capability whatsoever via this thread, then it would have to be my Ruger 18in bbl ss lh GSR with can. ( I have plenty of 32acp , 308 commercial, and 7.62x51mm stocked plus reload for it)

If I was stacked deep enough in 3030, I would have no problems using my lever action rifle either.

Not sure if a handgun is allowed to go for a ride alongside this rifle, but if its allowed for the purposes of this thread, mine would be me Ruger mk4 22 45 lite with can and std velocity ammunition. Primary purpose = small game and secondary " last ditch" defense firearm.
No thats cheating However, that sweet rig you got there.

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Originally Posted by fragout View Post
I agree with you, and for additional reasons in any terrain including urban. In terms of weight, 9mm is right there with 5.56mm. 357magnum and 30 carbine are close in weight with 7.62x39mm and 300 blackout. 44magnum is on par with 7.62x51mm.
After using all cartridges and then some against our feral pig population, 44 magnum comes close in terms of what I require via consistent terminal effects at relatively close distances. For the same weight per rd carried, I gain much more in terms of performance at much greater distances via 308.
32acp via chamber insert weighs less than 38spl optimized for small game. My sub loads are right on par with what 357mag can achieve. In short, 308 (or 3006 for that matter) are much more versatile than 357mag or 44mag in what the end user has in terms of operational/ practical and options there in.
Note:
Rifle itself weighs in at 8.5 lbs and OAL= 39 inches. A fully loaded 20rd M14 mag= 1.5lbs

Having a rifle and handgun in the same caliber is not an advantage to me in the least. ( Even if a sidearm is allowed for this thread) At any rate, Im a better shot using my 22/45 lite compared to my gp100......and this coming from a revolver fan.
Great point. I didn't even consider this when I mentioned lighter ammo. At this point being recoil sensitive, or have an abundance of pistol ammo, would be the only solid reasons to go with a pistol caliber rifle.

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Originally Posted by Stophel View Post
I do wonder just who many of you think you will get into a shootout with.... zombies, I suppose...

My enemy probably won't be roving bands of starving savages, but far more likely well-armed, well-armored soldiers with the advantages of IR, night vision, full auto, artillery, rockets, drones, and spy satellites that can see me (and you) everywhere, all the time.... I figure I might get a few shots off, at best...

As far as the savages go, I can guarantee I'm a more effective shot than any of them, with whatever gun I have.
Looters are my idea of a potential threat one could encounter should the day comes that the majority of the population wakes up without running water or electricity, and all the hardship that would come with it.

Military troops, with armor and artillery? Only a fool would attempt to hold a defensive position against such an adversary, with only small arms. One of those fools wouldn't me. IED's, ambushes, chemical attack, blowing up train track (and other forms of sabotage), etc would be the only effective means for an under equipped fighter to push back

In addition ,looters, whom will or won't possess the same weaponry as oneself, I see fending of groups of them ,from the safety of ones home, as realistic course of action.
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Old 01-14-2017, 04:35 PM
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Most of you will NOT like this at all, but...

What's coming is NOT "the grid going down", "without rule of law" (REALLY???), or wandering bands of looters/zombies (hell, we have that already, and they can be avoided). The idea that everyone will turn into raving bloodthirsty lunatics when the power is off is asinine. Sure, certain segments of the population will be, but again, they already are. Turn off your TV. What is coming is major, ultimately worldwide ethnic war. It is, in fact, well underway... even if most of those that should be on my side refuse to see it.
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Old 01-14-2017, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Frankthered View Post
Looters are my idea of a potential threat one could encounter should the day comes that the majority of the population wakes up without running water or electricity, and all the hardship that would come with it.

Military troops, with armor and artillery? Only a fool would attempt to hold a defensive position against such an adversary, with only small arms. One of those fools wouldn't me. IED's, ambushes, chemical attack, blowing up train track (and other forms of sabotage), etc would be the only effective means for an under equipped fighter to push back

In addition ,looters, whom will or won't possess the same weaponry as oneself, I see fending of groups of them ,from the safety of ones home, as realistic course of action.
This thread is largely in the realm of fantasy, kind of along the same lines as "What sword would you pick for SHTF?" Might as well throw a guerrilla war into the discussion. There's not really any logical reason for someone to be limited to non semi auto firearms. Even in the commie states people can still legally own at least some sort of semi auto, many of which are easily converted back to a non neutered form if a few parts are kept hidden for a rainy day. BTW, what sort of home do you have anyway? You're planning to fend off "groups" of looters from your home? That's a tall order.
Old 01-14-2017, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Stophel View Post
Most of you will NOT like this at all, but...

What's coming is NOT "the grid going down", "without rule of law" (REALLY???), or wandering bands of looters/zombies (hell, we have that already, and they can be avoided). The idea that everyone will turn into raving bloodthirsty lunatics when the power is off is asinine. Sure, certain segments of the population will be, but again, they already are. Turn off your TV. What is coming is major, ultimately worldwide ethnic war. It is, in fact, well underway... even if most of those that should be on my side refuse to see it.
Speculation on your part. If you are correct, good luck finding 357mag ammo that will penetrate body armor to the same degree as 308 or 3006 can from point blank out to 300m. ( Read post number 64 of this thread again please)

My M14 can't be utilized for this thread, so my GSR gets the nod.

Ill cover you.
Old 01-14-2017, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stophel View Post
Most of you will NOT like this at all, but...

What's coming is NOT "the grid going down", "without rule of law" (REALLY???), or wandering bands of looters/zombies (hell, we have that already, and they can be avoided). The idea that everyone will turn into raving bloodthirsty lunatics when the power is off is asinine. Sure, certain segments of the population will be, but again, they already are. Turn off your TV. What is coming is major, ultimately worldwide ethnic war. It is, in fact, well underway... even if most of those that should be on my side refuse to see it.
I presume you're some sort of divinely inspired prophet then? You seem very sure.
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Old 01-14-2017, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankthered View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by fragout View Post
Would one rifle with the capability to fire in manual operation as well as the capability to fire in semiautomatic form via a simple turn of a slot screw in less than 2 seconds qualify here?

My one rifle for all purpose use ( hunting bunny's to bison, and all forms concerning security) has been the same rifle since 2005.

A custom built M14S tanker using a Norinco reciever, 18in chrome lined tube, synthetic stock, ARMS18 mount, 20rd cmi ss mags, and a spindle valve that works.

Small game hunting via rifle in survival mode uses either my subsonic loads, or 32acp chamber insert ( with or without a can), and spindle valve closed. A fast, simple, and reliable means of allowing the rifle to fire while preventing any residue from entering the gas cylinder. Also keeps the action noise quiet at the initial shot especially.

Very fast an easy to switch out to full on 308 commercial hunting ammunition capable of dropping any critter in this hemisphere with one shot out to 400 yards plus, or 7.62x51mm FMJ/ OTM in manual operation or semi.

If the rifle cannot have any semiauto capability whatsoever via this thread, then it would have to be my Ruger 18in bbl ss lh GSR with can. ( I have plenty of 32acp , 308 commercial, and 7.62x51mm stocked plus reload for it)

If I was stacked deep enough in 3030, I would have no problems using my lever action rifle either.

Not sure if a handgun is allowed to go for a ride alongside this rifle, but if its allowed for the purposes of this thread, mine would be me Ruger mk4 22 45 lite with can and std velocity ammunition. Primary purpose = small game and secondary " last ditch" defense firearm.
No thats cheating However, that sweet rig you got there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fragout View Post
I agree with you, and for additional reasons in any terrain including urban. In terms of weight, 9mm is right there with 5.56mm. 357magnum and 30 carbine are close in weight with 7.62x39mm and 300 blackout. 44magnum is on par with 7.62x51mm.
After using all cartridges and then some against our feral pig population, 44 magnum comes close in terms of what I require via consistent terminal effects at relatively close distances. For the same weight per rd carried, I gain much more in terms of performance at much greater distances via 308.
32acp via chamber insert weighs less than 38spl optimized for small game. My sub loads are right on par with what 357mag can achieve. In short, 308 (or 3006 for that matter) are much more versatile than 357mag or 44mag in what the end user has in terms of operational/ practical and options there in.
Note:
Rifle itself weighs in at 8.5 lbs and OAL= 39 inches. A fully loaded 20rd M14 mag= 1.5lbs

Having a rifle and handgun in the same caliber is not an advantage to me in the least. ( Even if a sidearm is allowed for this thread) At any rate, Im a better shot using my 22/45 lite compared to my gp100......and this coming from a revolver fan.
Great point. I didn't even consider this when I mentioned lighter ammo. At this point being recoil sensitive, or have an abundance of pistol ammo, would be the only solid reasons to go with a pistol caliber rifle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stophel View Post
I do wonder just who many of you think you will get into a shootout with.... zombies, I suppose...

My enemy probably won't be roving bands of starving savages, but far more likely well-armed, well-armored soldiers with the advantages of IR, night vision, full auto, artillery, rockets, drones, and spy satellites that can see me (and you) everywhere, all the time.... I figure I might get a few shots off, at best...

As far as the savages go, I can guarantee I'm a more effective shot than any of them, with whatever gun I have.
Looters are my idea of a potential threat one could encounter should the day comes that the majority of the population wakes up without running water or electricity, and all the hardship that would come with it.

Military troops, with armor and artillery? Only a fool would attempt to hold a defensive position against such an adversary, with only small arms. One of those fools wouldn't me. IED's, ambushes, chemical attack, blowing up train track (and other forms of sabotage), etc would be the only effective means for an under equipped fighter to push back

In addition ,looters, whom will or won't possess the same weaponry as oneself, I see fending of groups of them ,from the safety of ones home, as realistic course of action.
Thanks.

125gr Hornady reduced recoil ( 308) SST fired thru an 8.5lbs M14S has about the same " felt recoil" as my Mini14 and 55g. GSR using same ammo " feels" like shooting an 80gr 243 via 110 Savage. With that said, everyone seems to perceive felt recoil in a different light.

Would agree that a 9mm carbine would get the nod if 9mm was the only cartridge stocked however......

What I get out of this thread = a general purpose rifle that allows as many options as possible within any types of terrain, climate, etc..... As discussions go, all types of scenarios pop up and most have to do with some type of direct fire altercations with other 2 legged critters. Regardless of anything else, I would prefer my specific semi auto rifle for any type of conflict regardless of any known or unknown factors about a threat .
Since this rifle has to be manually operated only, I would stick with the GSR, even thou I loves my " 336 Marlin".

As to hunting, I haven't seen a noticeable difference between 308, 7mm08, 270, and 3006 in the field after the critters are in the dirt to matter.
Old 01-14-2017, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stophel View Post
Most of you will NOT like this at all, but...

What's coming is NOT "the grid going down", "without rule of law" (REALLY???), or wandering bands of looters/zombies (hell, we have that already, and they can be avoided). The idea that everyone will turn into raving bloodthirsty lunatics when the power is off is asinine. Sure, certain segments of the population will be, but again, they already are. Turn off your TV. What is coming is major, ultimately worldwide ethnic war. It is, in fact, well underway... even if most of those that should be on my side refuse to see it.
Everything on here (and every survivalist forum) is a "what if"? what if, I get lost in the woods with no water? what if, I get snowed in my cabin? what if, there an earthquake. what if, some guy trys to kill to me for my food, because he doesn't have any. etc.

Those that convince themselves that nothing happens or ever will happen, so they need not prepare or acquire skills, have the freedom to do so. I would be nice, if they'd stop trying to convince and/or berate people who dont think like them,into thinking like them.

Most survivalist type scenarios will sound asinine until they happen (the LA riots would of probably sounded asinine to many, until they happened). Regardless of the low probability that I'll ever have to use my knowledge to stay alive and not rely on walmart or fema to provide for me. Its better to know how to be self reliant and not need to, than to need to and not know how to.

So, despite the low potential of something extreme happening, "IF" I ever need to defend myself against "bloodthirsty lunatics" (like the korean shop owners did during the LA riots) try to destroy my property, Ill be ready. IF, I ever need carve a spear from a piece of wood or find a way to hydrate myself while stranded in the desert, Ill know how. etc.
Old 01-14-2017, 05:31 PM
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This thread is largely in the realm of fantasy, kind of along the same lines as "What sword would you pick for SHTF?" Might as well throw a guerrilla war into the discussion. There's not really any logical reason for someone to be limited to non semi auto firearms. Even in the commie states people can still legally own at least some sort of semi auto, many of which are easily converted back to a non neutered form if a few parts are kept hidden for a rainy day. BTW, what sort of home do you have anyway? You're planning to fend off "groups" of looters from your home? That's a tall order.
Thats exactly what it is. Being limited in choice is what makes the question interesting. My home isn't by any means a fortress and no I don't lol. If i had a say in what happens the looter would never set foot on my block. Its all "what if". Yes, the thread has detracted a bit, but its fun to discuss.
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Old 01-14-2017, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palma View Post
If others have semi's and I can't. I want one of these.
http://troydefense.com/pumpactionrifle/ .......

But would also be content with a Remington pump, Win. 94, Marlin 30/30, or any number of good bolt actions.
Interesting concept.

I was wondering why a pump action hadn't shown up on the discussion yet. Don't own one myself, but wouldn't they help keep your eye on target better than a lever or bolt action?
I would think a bolt action would be better than a pump or lever in the prone position. I would rather have a bolt or lever in seated position as well as kneeling. Standing unsupported might be a toss up and come down to a personal preference, depending on utilizing a sling as a shooting aid or not.
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Old 01-16-2017, 04:48 PM
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I have said many times on this board there is no such thing as one tool for all jobs.

Personally, as often as possible, I am hoping my "combat engagements" will be by my choice and at long range. That being said, when I get my choice I have an old Lee Enfield 30.06 on a sporting stock that I will comfortably snipe with at long ranges most of my adversaries will likely be unable to reach. I will then move on before any guys I did not hit get there. Rinse, repeat.

Would I use that same rifle in engagements of 20-100ft? Heck no; not if I had a choice.

On the other hand, I used an old Marlin camp rifle years ago with an action so smooth that, though it was lever action, I would have been comfortable using it at close contact. Would I prefer a semi auto in CQB? Sure, but if you had no choice.

I have also long been an advocate that .22LR has a place in some combat situations. For example, I have a wood stock Ruger 10/22. There is a woman in my MAG who is quite uncomfortable with shooting high cal, but loves that Ruger. I always intended to get one of those 120 rd mags (before they banned em in Canada) for her to be able to do things like suppressive fire and such with it. In the heat of battle, no one is going to notice the caliber she is shooting; their concern will be to stay low.


I think the best rifle for combat engagements is the one you have. I went many years of prepping with no guns at all. Then I inherited a bunch of almost exclusively hunting rifles and a couple pistols. I after that purchased some firearms specifically with prep goals in mind.

Point is, for some time there, the best rifle I would have had for any battle was one ill suited to the task. It would have been, on the other hand, better than nothing.
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Old 01-16-2017, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Frankthered View Post
Thats exactly what it is. Being limited in choice is what makes the question interesting. My home isn't by any means a fortress and no I don't lol. If i had a say in what happens the looter would never set foot on my block. Its all "what if". Yes, the thread has detracted a bit, but its fun to discuss.
I've no problem discussing it, (obviously). We just have to recognize that it's not a realistic question. Discussing unrealistic scenarios is fine but I think sometimes people start to get the idea that we're talking about something that could possibly happen. A discussion that is limited to only non semi automatic firearms in an SHTF situation in the US is very much along the same lines as being limited only to butter knives. Could it happen on a limited individual basis? Sure, possibly. Is it realistic to plan around that concept? No, not really.
Old 01-16-2017, 09:44 PM
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I've no problem discussing it, (obviously). We just have to recognize that it's not a realistic question. Discussing unrealistic scenarios is fine but I think sometimes people start to get the idea that we're talking about something that could possibly happen.
Really? Im certain people in austrailia, england, and the majority of the world would STRONGLY disagree with you. I know for a fact that in most (if not all) of south america and europe, the only long guns legally obtainable are manual action.

However, from an americans POV, yeah the question is unrealistic, if I was implying that a time would come when we'd only have access to manual action rifles.

Quote:
A discussion that is limited to only non semi automatic firearms in an SHTF situation in the US is very much along the same lines as being limited only to butter knives. Could it happen on a limited individual basis? Sure, possibly. Is it realistic to plan around that concept? No, not really.
Like I said, its all "what if" (to some its reality, scary).
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Old 01-17-2017, 06:02 AM
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Savage Model 24 O/U .223 or .357 Rem Max over 20 gauge.--If price were no object a Drilling of 30.06, .22, 12 gauge
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Old 01-17-2017, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Frankthered View Post
Really? Im certain people in austrailia, england, and the majority of the world would STRONGLY disagree with you. I know for a fact that in most (if not all) of south america and europe, the only long guns legally obtainable are manual action.

However, from an americans POV, yeah the question is unrealistic, if I was implying that a time would come when we'd only have access to manual action rifles.



Like I said, its all "what if" (to some its reality, scary).
I was specifically talking about the United States since the vast majority of people posting in this thread are from there. Sorry if I didn't make that clear enough.
Old 01-17-2017, 01:44 PM
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I was specifically talking about the United States since the vast majority of people posting in this thread are from there. Sorry if I didn't make that clear enough.
California could easily be looking down the barrel of a complete semi-auto ban anytime.
Old 02-17-2017, 01:28 AM
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The best gun I own is a Winchester Model 70 Featherweight in .308. The .30 caliber is about the most versatile round out there and the rifle is accurate out of the box, fun to shoot and as easy to carry all day as a 10-22.
Old 02-17-2017, 01:39 AM
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So we could all agree that the sun has set on single action rifles (bolt, break, and lever action) as the standard for all combat type engagements. However, if today in 2017, you had to choose a single over a semi, what would you choose?

You were only able to pick one rifle. Discuss.
Contender G2 stainless with custom built (not rechambered) 23" fluted SS bull 30-30 AI barrel with target crown, D/T for sights, Tony's stock and forend in Fiddle Back maple, with walnut nose and grip caps, topped with a nice Vortex scope of some kind.
Old 02-17-2017, 12:56 PM
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I would probably go with a Swiss K-31 for a surplus type or a Ruger Gunsite Scout in .308 for a new production rifle (if I owned one).

I prefer having more rounds available in a magazine than the standard five round bolt action hunting rifle and I like a full powered cartridge as opposed to a pistol cartridge fired from a rifle.
Old 02-17-2017, 01:11 PM
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A Mauser K98k carbine fitted with the 4-power Hensoldt sight with adjustable mounts.
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