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Old 03-19-2017, 12:34 PM
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Our Founders would certainly put a stop to such a practice if they were around today..
They are not & they didn't.

It is not for you to interpret what they clearly state. This argument gets used a lot with regards to 2a so also fits 1a

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Old 03-19-2017, 12:38 PM
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If and when you have a chance to read an untainted version of early American history and the letters and writings of our Founding Fathers you will clearly realize that their intent was NOT to create a nation for Muslims, Buddhists, and atheists but, rather, a nation for themselves (Christians) and their Christian posterity. Unfortunately, history has been ignored and the intent of our Founders has been twisted to mean something it was not meant to portray.

One of the first things our Founders began to do was to evangelize the American Indians. Whether we like that idea or not doesn't change the fact that the Founders intent was to create a nation of Christians and to convert anyone who was not Christian.
That's just your tainted version.

It's not what they wrote

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,

That is very concise and clear.

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Old 03-19-2017, 12:38 PM
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The old testament is in the bible.

Remember this ? I happen to use the Bible as the deciding authority concerning "right and wrong" .

Waylander
The Bible is a historical document. It's actually a bit progressive. The Old Testament was a "shadow" of things to come. The New Testament is the fulfillment of the promises and prophesies of the Old. Christ made it clear that mercy and love and charity should be at the forefront of a Christian's heart, mind, and soul. The Old Covenant gave way to the New Covenant. Christians are now under the New Covenant. Therefore, Christians use the Old Testament for historical purposes but the New Testament in day to day life.
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Old 03-19-2017, 12:41 PM
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That's just your tainted version.

It's not what they wrote

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,

That is very concise and clear.

Waylander
Your mantra is absolute proof that you don't know your early, American history.

Here's post #8 of this thread. Take a close look at what our early Congress had to say:

http://www.survivalistboards.com/sho...54&postcount=8
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Old 03-19-2017, 12:43 PM
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The Bible is a historical document. It's actually a bit progressive. The Old Testament was a "shadow" of things to come. The New Testament is the fulfillment of the promises and prophesies of the Old. Christ made it clear that mercy and love and charity should be at the forefront of a Christian's heart, mind, and soul. The Old Covenant gave way to the New Covenant. Christians are now under the New Covenant. Therefore, Christians use the Old Testament for historical purposes but the New Testament in day to day life.
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I happen to use the Bible as the deciding authority concerning "right and wrong" while folks who reject the Bible make that determination based on how they feel on any given day.
Ah okay, it's a progressive document. So you get to reject parts of it based on how you feel on any given day

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Old 03-19-2017, 12:48 PM
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Your mantra is absolute proof that you don't know your early, American history.

Here's post #8 of this thread. Take a close look at what our early Congress had to say:

http://www.survivalistboards.com/sho...54&postcount=8
So using the exact same argument, 2a means you're only allowed muskets

Or is,(like the Bible), the constitution a progressive document ?

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Old 03-19-2017, 12:50 PM
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Ah okay, it's a progressive document. So you get to reject parts of it based on how you feel on any given day

Waylander
I see you're a leftist. At least you use their tactics of "argumentation." As previously explained ... the Old gave way to the New but you clearly have your eyes tightly shut. Have a nice day. No need to waste anymore time.
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Old 03-19-2017, 12:55 PM
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I see you're a leftist. At least you use their tactics of "argumentation." As previously explained ... the Old gave way to the New but you clearly have your eyes tightly shut. Have a nice day. No need to waste anymore time.
Wrong again. I'm as capitalist as they come.

You cannot debate, when your own points are used against you, you resort to childish insults and turn and run

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Old 03-20-2017, 10:51 AM
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I wanted to bring up three (3) three points, then I would enjoy hearing anyone's thoughts. Of course in the end none of this matters because we are essentially discussing how we individually see America. It does me no harm if someone living in Iowa believes America was built for pagans who want to sacrifice cheddar cheese to some moon god. At least I see no one suggesting actual laws to be changed.


1st point) The Constitution: Wouldn't the American Constitution be the prime place to establish America as an official an exclusive "Christian Nation"? Wouldn't there be a some language, some indication that the founders wanted us to be recognized officially a Christian nation? Nothing in the bill of rights either.


2nd point: The bible We have no biblical mandate to establish a Christian nation. Not from Jesus, Paul or any new testament writer. Rather we have a bible mandate to focus on God's Kingdom as our eternal home.

(John 18:36) - Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

(Hebrews 13:14) For this world is not our home; we are looking forward to a home yet to come.

3rd point: Does it matter? Why does it do anyone any harm if some guy down the road sees America as something different than I do as long as he obeys our laws? As far as I know no one has suggested to changing any laws to fit a particular belief.

I absolutely believe our founders were mostly Christian believers of many denomination and beliefs. They often spoke of their faith and clearly our Christian faith guided them and they didn't make the same mistakes others made in Europe. One example is George Washington welcoming Jews and assured them they had nothing to fear.

The very fact we are believers and followers of Jesus Christ is why we have tolerated other beliefs or non-beliefs and let them live in peace with no harm, no special taxation, no special laws, no condemnation. I would go so far as to say that this separates us from savages who demand full allegiance in everything.

How am I wrong/right/off the mark?...thanks

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Old 03-20-2017, 11:55 AM
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1st point) The Constitution: Wouldn't the American Constitution be the prime place to establish America as an official an exclusive "Christian Nation"?

How am I wrong/right/off the mark?...thanks
You are off the mark because you have accepted the false premise that the only way to be a Christian nation is for us to be a theocracy, I.e., official statement by government.

The laws do not make the society; the society makes the law. Where is the 'official' words that America is a patriarchy? Racist? White privilege? Multicultural? The police of the world? Has to provide health care for people?

The FF we're men who believed in self-evident truths. The first amendment was to prevent Christian excess not establish a Christian floor.
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Old 03-20-2017, 02:50 PM
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Ohio man; Your third point - "Does it matter?" Yes it does. That is exactly what the LBGT community is doing, changing laws to suit them. Gay marriage laws are a perfect example. Their law now affects you if you are a florist, baker or photographer. You now not only must tolerate their sinful wickedness, you must partake of it by assisting in their ceremonies or lose your business and face fines and maybe jail time. There was a time not too long ago that government communities would never tolerate that kind of activity. The United States has moved away from Biblical Christian ideals we once had.

Your second point - No Biblical Mandate to est a Christian Nation. You are right. Nowhere in the Bible does God say "establish a Christian Nation". However, Christians are supposed to obey God and not commit sin. In doing that the founders of any nation would be creating a nation that was Christian. I am assuming the founders were all believers in the Lord Jesus Christ which is the only way to become a Christian. Where do you find out how to obey God and not commit sin. By reading the Bible. A nation made up of Bible reading Christians would be a Christian nation. So God is giving a mandate to establish a Christian nation in the Bible because God expects Christians to obey Him.
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Old 03-20-2017, 04:06 PM
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Thanks Peter

Quote:
=PeterEnergy;13995994]You are off the mark because you have accepted the false premise that the only way to be a Christian nation is for us to be a theocracy, I.e., official statement by government.
Seems that would help an "official" statement of some type. Seems Jefferson or Madison would have mentioned and most certainly in the Constitution/Bill or rights..something.

Quote:
The laws do not make the society; the society makes the law. Where is the 'official' words that America is a patriarchy? Racist? White privilege? Multicultural? The police of the world? Has to provide health care for people?
I would agree that the majority is Christian (society) but our FF's seemed not to have any problems say a Thomas Paine.

I still think it comes down how we as individuals decide to see America. We have no proclamations, no laws, no amendments suggesting we are to be an exclusive Christian nation.

I have absolutely no biblical commands to establish or even be apart of a exclusive Christian nation, in fact just the opposite. God's word is clear, we are in the world but not of this world.

Quote:
The FF we're men who believed in self-evident truths. The first amendment was to prevent Christian excess not establish a Christian floor.
The First Amendments prohibition against government regulation or endorsement of any of the diverse faiths have caused many to peacefully flourish and even thrive in America since the founding of the republic. It's not a weakness but rather a strength.

James Madison (Father of the Constitution) said this:

It was the belief of all sects at one time that the establishment of Religion by law, was right & necessary; that the true religion ought to be established in exclusion of every other; And that the only question to be decided was which was the true religion. The example of Holland proved that a toleration of sects, dissenting from the established sect, was safe & even useful. The example of the Colonies, now States, which rejected religious establishments altogether, proved that all Sects might be safely & advantageously put on a footing of equal & entire freedom.... We are teaching the world the great truth that Govts. do better without Kings & Nobles than with them
Old 03-20-2017, 04:13 PM
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=pinkerpv;13998458]Ohio man; Your third point - "Does it matter?" Yes it does. That is exactly what the LBGT community is doing, changing laws to suit them. Gay marriage laws are a perfect example. Their law now affects you if you are a florist, baker or photographer. You now not only must tolerate their sinful wickedness, you must partake of it by assisting in their ceremonies or lose your business and face fines and maybe jail time. There was a time not too long ago that government communities would never tolerate that kind of activity. The United States has moved away from Biblical Christian ideals we once had.
Yeah, I would agree with it on the other end as well. (Forcing Christians to bake cakes etc)



Quote:
Your second point - No Biblical Mandate to est a Christian Nation. You are right. Nowhere in the Bible does God say "establish a Christian Nation". However, Christians are supposed to obey God and not commit sin. In doing that the founders of any nation would be creating a nation that was Christian. I am assuming the founders were all believers in the Lord Jesus Christ which is the only way to become a Christian. Where do you find out how to obey God and not commit sin. By reading the Bible. A nation made up of Bible reading Christians would be a Christian nation. So God is giving a mandate to establish a Christian nation in the Bible because God expects Christians to obey Him.
We are told to obey laws unless they are in conflict with biblical commands. (Romans 13:1-7)

It does my personal faith and walk with Jesus Christ no harm if another commits sin.
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Old 03-20-2017, 07:41 PM
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I still think it comes down how we as individuals decide to see America. We have no proclamations, no laws, no amendments suggesting we are to be an exclusive Christian nation.
No proclamations? Where do you get the idea of exclusivity in the Land of the melting pot? Think about this. Seriously. As I said, the 1A was put in place to prevent one Christian sect or another from doing at the federal level, what they did at the State level in the former colonies - create State sponsored Christian religions.
Anglican / Church of England: Maryland, New York, North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia
Puritan / Congregational Church: Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Hampshire
https://sites.google.com/site/americ...he-13-colinies
I am suggesting that the question is not a matter of perspective or exclusiveness. There is such a thing as objective reality. I'm not talking about exceptions but rules. America was founded by men. America was founded by White people. America was founded by Christians. Not only was this the case, they remain the facts of the matter.

Are there women in America? Women in power? Are there non-Whites in America? Non-Whites in power? Are there non-Christians in America? Are there non-Christians in power? Sure, but these are exceptions not rules.

White Christian men predominately make up what moves and shakes America. 68% are White. 72% are Christian. And almost all power positions are held by men. This is reality. It has nothing to do with 'official' (aka government proclamation). It has everything to do with understanding the reality of American culture today and all the days since the Founding.
These and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation.
1892 Supreme Court Case,
Holy Trinity Church v. United States
I have said it several times in this thread. The only way to suppose American is not a Christian nation is to accept the Strawman that only a theocracy would make us a Christian nation. Nonsense. America is a patriarchy and always has been. It is not 'official' but it is reality.
From The Mayflower Compact
In the name of God, Amen. We whose names are under-written, the loyal subjects of our dread sovereign Lord, King James, by the grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland King, Defender of the Faith, etc.

Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine our selves together into a civil body politic...

From Search Findings
King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella (espically the queen) wanted to spread Christianity. Before Christopher Columbus's first expedition to the New World, the Islamic people had just been completely driven out. The queen wanted millions of other people to be saved and accept Christianity and Jesus Christ.
So, the evidence is clear: Christianity was the non-monetary reason Columbus came to America in 1492. Spreading Christianity is why the pilgrims settled in 1620. America is made up of an overwhelmingly large majority of Christians today. America is and always was a Christian nation (even if, as most Christian nations, we evolved to NOT establish a Christian theocracy). What could possibly confuse anyone given the consistent and irrefutable body of evidence that America is a Christian nation demonstrated over half a millennia?
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Old 03-21-2017, 05:21 AM
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If our laws are based on the ideals of the people then having legalized homosexual marraige, transgender laws, illicit drug laws seems to indicate what we have BECOME. At this point how we started seems to be a moot point. This world currently belongs to the devil. It will only get worse for believers in Jesus Christ. But one day that WILL all change. Currentlywe are the freest nation on earth. My government cannot tell me how to worship Jesus nor can they silence legally silence me......yet.
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Old 03-21-2017, 08:04 AM
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Thanks Peter for your thoughtful/intelligent points. Here are my views on this matter.

Quote:
=PeterEnergy;14001322]No proclamations? Where do you get the idea of exclusivity in the Land of the melting pot? Think about this. Seriously. As I said, the 1A was put in place to prevent one Christian sect or another from doing at the federal level, what they did at the State level in the former colonies - create State sponsored Christian religions.
Anglican / Church of England: Maryland, New York, North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia
Puritan / Congregational Church: Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Hampshire
https://sites.google.com/site/americ...he-13-colinies
Completely agree (reason for 1A). Specifically the establishment clause prohibits the government from "establishing" a religion. The exact definition of "establishment" has been unclear and hotly debated ever since.

I agree historically, it meant prohibiting state-sponsored churches, such as the Church of England and what you mentioned above.

Today, what constitutes an "establishment of religion" is often governed under the a 3 part test set forth by the U.S. Supreme Court in*Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602 (1971).

Under this "Lemon" test, government can assist religion only if the primary reason of the assistance is secular, the assistance must neither promote nor inhibit religion, and there is no excessive entanglement between church and state.

Quote:
I am suggesting that the question is not a matter of perspective or exclusiveness. There is such a thing as objective reality. I'm not talking about exceptions but rules. [B]America was founded by men. America was founded by White people. America was founded by Christians. Not only was this the case, they remain the facts of the matter.
I would agree, that is how it was and for the most part still is.

Quote:
Are there women in America? Women in power? Are there non-Whites in America? Non-Whites in power? Are there non-Christians in America? Are there non-Christians in power? Sure, but these are exceptions not rules.
I would argue they are "rules" and not exceptions according to our Constitution. The Fifteenth Amendment gives blacks the right to vote (former slaves).

The RULE: 19th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution: Women's Right to Vote. IMO, not a change but more clarity. "Persons" now officially include women.

Clearly the Constitution did not even mention women or limit any of its rights or privileges to just males. The word "persons" was used, which sounds a little gender neutral which caused future debates. However common law was inherited from Brits which was used for the interpretation of the law. And many state laws were not gender-neutral. However right after the Constitution was adopted, New Jersey as example accepted voting rights for women and we went on from there.


Quote:
White Christian men predominately make up what moves and shakes America. 68% are White. 72% are Christian. And almost all power positions are held by men. This is reality. It has nothing to do with 'official' (aka government proclamation). It has everything to do with understanding the reality of American culture today and all the days since the Founding.
Except we don't run things by "percentages" in America. I agree it's not official and has everything to do with individual understanding. I have a Christian home, attend a Christian Church, had a Christian marriage, raised my children in Christian traditions but "Others" are different and don't share my convictions.

1) We have ZERO legal claim to legally call this a Christian nation other than our own individual perceptions.

2) We have ZERO biblical commands, mandates, suggestions to even establish a "Christian" nation. NO where in scripture are we told this. In fact just the opposite is true. This in NOT our home. I am thrilled we have so many Christians here and have the freedom to worship as we see fit.

I love the fact our heritage was shaped by men of many Christian sects but had the wisdom not to install their particular religious views on the rest of us and have that change with new calculations of percentages.

Quote:
These and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation.
1892 Supreme Court Case,
Holy Trinity Church v. United States
Justice Brewer published a book in 1905 titled The United States: A Christian Nation. In it he wrote this to clear up any confusion:

But in what sense can [the United States] be called a Christian nation? Not in the sense that Christianity is the established religion or the people are compelled in any manner to support it. On the contrary, the Constitution specifically provides that 'congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.' Neither is it Christian in the sense that all its citizens are either in fact or in name Christians. On the contrary, all religions have free scope within its borders. Numbers of our people profess other religions, and many reject all. [...]
Nor is it Christian in the sense that a profession of Christianity is a condition of holding office or otherwise engaging in public service, or essential to recognition either politically or socially. In fact, the government as a legal organization is independent of all religions.

Justice Brewer's decision was not any attempt to argue that the laws in the U.S. should enforce Christianity or reflect solely Christian concerns and beliefs.

He was simply making an observation which is consistent with the fact that people in this country tend to be Christian. Who wouldn't agree?

Justice Brewer's very last sentence says, "Government is and must remain independent of all religions," which sounds like a good way of saying church/state separation.

Quote:
I have said it several times in this thread. The only way to suppose American is not a Christian nation is to accept the Strawman that only a theocracy would make us a Christian nation. Nonsense. America is a patriarchy and always has been. It is not 'official' but it is reality.
I don't know "who's" reality where that's true but a patriarchy is where men make all the choices and decisions, women just stay at home and do what the men tell them to. IMHO that is no where near the majority of America today.

While I agree it's true that a patriarchy used to exist, this is no longer the case, at least in the developed world. Women lead in many fields.

I haven't made the case the only way America could be considered a Christian nation is by a theocracy. I'm saying it's personal opinion and observation and probably life-style.

In my world, it's all about Jesus Christ and doing my best to follow and obey him. Others feel differently. Again I have NO biblical commands or even suggestions to establish a "Christian Nation". We are completely outside the bounds of biblical teachings to suggest other wise.
Old 03-21-2017, 08:14 AM
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We have electronic Recordings of every American President (Except 2) saying it's a Judeo-Christian Nation dating back to World War 1.
Old 03-21-2017, 10:26 AM
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We have electronic Recordings of every American President (Except 1) saying it's a Judeo-Christian Nation dating back to World War 1.
True, every President has given their opinion but those views fall short of passing any laws or any legislation suggesting we are a Christian nation other than our population and personal traditions and opinions.

The ONLY opinions of Presidents/leaders I'm concerned with this that of Jesus Christ and his teachings and He offered no commands or teachings to even suggest we establish a "Christian Nation".

We are not on sound biblical ground when we suggest nation building here on the earth in His name.

We have nothing from the Apostle Paul, James, John or any other New Testament writer instructing us to build temples, Cathedrals or to build a nation here on earth...zip!

Sure we might win in the category of the "nana-nana boo-boo we are more than you" award but America places minorities on equal levels of protections and governed with the same laws.

I realize some place some odd value on making the point "America is a Christian Nation" but none that has any value or effect on my faith and walk with Jesus Christ. MY walk with Him has ZERO effect on what laws are ever passed by any earthly kingdom even if they one day kill me. No effect on my faith!
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:22 PM
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What could possibly confuse anyone given the consistent and irrefutable body of evidence that America is a Christian nation demonstrated over half a millennia?
It seems you did not actually answer my question. Oh well.

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Originally Posted by OhioMan View Post
I would argue they are "rules" and not exceptions according to our Constitution. The Fifteenth Amendment gives blacks the right to vote (former slaves).

The RULE: 19th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution: Women's Right to Vote. IMO, not a change but more clarity. "Persons" now officially include women.
Oy vey. Two points:
1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
I have said it several times in this thread. The only way to suppose American is not a Christian nation is to accept the Strawman that only a theocracy would make us a Christian nation.
2. You do realize the expression, about rules and exceptions is statistical in nature, right?

Is it really so hard to communicate about this idea without relying on statism? Sure, there is a rule that murder is prohibited but that is the exception and not the rule of human interaction.

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Originally Posted by OhioMan View Post
Except we don't run things by "percentages" in America.
Well, there are numbers behind those percentages. Feel free to convert. Beyond that, we rule by all kinds of % - 51% generally, 2/3 (67%) overrides presidential veto, 3/4 (75% changes Constitution).

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1) We have ZERO legal claim to legally call this a Christian nation other than our own individual perceptions.
WTF?! Other than our legal right to have legal rights we have no legal rights? Except for all the exceptions, there are no exceptions.

Seriously, I am not sure how big that universe you just drew there is. How many things do we have a legal claim to legally call anything a particular thing and how many moments of our life does that constitute? Talk about rules and exceptions, my god! Sweet Jesus!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
I have said it several times in this thread. The only way to suppose American is not a Christian nation is to accept the Strawman that only a theocracy would make us a Christian nation.
This is clearly not a matter of perception but conception. Reference edge of universe. You are confusing grasp of reality with legalism/statism. Just because there is a law does not mean a thing can NOT be done. Just because there is no law does not mean a thing CANNOT be (done). For instance, women and Blacks could vote in America before the Constitution was changed. (It was just left to each individual State).
http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1072053/posts
http://knowledgenuts.com/2013/12/11/...9th-amendment/

Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioMan View Post
2) We have ZERO biblical commands, mandates, suggestions to even establish a "Christian" nation.
The establishment of reality exists prior to the 1A. Reality is not so much established by us but recognized. Do we have any Biblical commands to establish a non-flat Earth? A non-heliocentric solar system? Actuarial tables? Driving on the right hand side of the road? Yet, all these things are the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
I have said it several times in this thread. The only way to suppose American is not a Christian nation is to accept the Strawman that only a theocracy would make us a Christian nation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioMan View Post
He was simply making an observation which is consistent with the fact that people in this country tend to be Christian. Who wouldn't agree?
Then what is the basis to deny America is Christian nation? The idea that people in this country tend to be Christian is consistent with it being a Christian nation.

There is about 1.9 billion Christians world wide. It makes sense they constitute ruling majorities in several countries, including ours.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioMan View Post
I don't know "who's" reality where that's true but a patriarchy is where men make all the choices and decisions, women just stay at home and do what the men tell them to. IMHO that is no where near the majority of America today.
Again, Appeal to Strawman. If you want, you can set up a false definition of a word so that there are no existents that belong to it. It is worse than you not seeing the forest because of the trees. You deny there can be any collection of trees that constitute a forest. Again, this is not a matter of perception but conception. Just because i claim to never have seen a round circle does NOT mean circles are NOT round.

In NO WAY has a patriarchy EVER MEANT what you wrote above. When I first got with my wife I told her I want her to make most of the decisions! (This is because most decisions are arbitrary and a burden for me, e.g., what to have for dinner, when should the grandkids come over or what to get so and so for a gift.)

However, any feminist will tell you and a quick perusal of the leaders at all levels in our country, now and in the past have been men. It is just a fact. The type of fact it is is not 'official' (proclaimed by government). The type of fact it is is reality based.

Theocracies do not make a Christian nation - the people do. It explains why 100% of our Presidents were Christians. If you feel obligated to respond, please start with the criteria that determines any nations character, e.g. what makes a nation a Christian nation, what makes a nation poor or Black or Asian or with a high or low life expectancy - IF NOT THE PEOPLE THEREIN?

The entire denial is based on pretending a Christian nation can only exist if it a theocracy. The ironic thing is most Christian nations have evolved in precisely the opposite direction, allowing for more overall freedom than non-Christian countries. Said differently, America is as much (or more) a Christian nation as it is any other individual character, e.g., rich, diversified, technologically advanced, war-mongering, etc. You will not find any other character of our nation enshrined by proclamation in the Constitution.
Old 03-21-2017, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by OhioMan View Post
True, every President has given their opinion
That is the most petulant and obstinate post I've ever read from you.

A man forced to change is mind is of the same opinion still. You can lead a horse to water but cannot make it drink.
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