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How much space do you think is required to stop monotony in a long-term shelter?

11K views 57 replies 34 participants last post by  MikeK 
#1 ·
I heard that the Red Cross recommends forty square feet per person, FEMA recommends fifty square feet, and those guys at Vivos have 100 square feet.

How many square feet of space would you need, if you were to live in a long-term shelter, to keep from getting bored? Assume that you must spend a lot of your time inside this space, but there will be other things you can do- i.e, an exercise room, a public gathering place for other people in your group, a mini-library, and a mini-theater (stress the word "mini").

By the way, this shelter would be underground, but it is designed so that your mind is drawn away from the fact that you are underground.
 
#2 ·
You must train your mind. It s limitless. People get bored in large malls or even the city...You mind has no walls. You will need to learn how to travel and vacation in your mind. People that have been in POW camps and solitary confinement for years on end have spoke about it. You need to get good at being alone, or if you are with someone you will need to be a master of communication. He who can communicate the best will win.
 
#13 ·
I'm one of those oddballs that never gets bored. I could be locked in a closet for 6 months and not get bored. It would give my mind a chance to catch up on all the thinking that I've put off over the years.

A lot of it will depend on the person. I know people who absolutely have to have some form of entertainment piped in or they get bored beyond belief. I think our focus on constant canned entertainment has trained a lot of people out of being able to entertain themselves. You sure see that in kids a lot today. They have no idea how to play and imagine anymore. And they grow up into adults with the same limitations.

It's not just boredom; it's crowding. Even though human beings are social beings, they need to get away and have some private time too. So it's not solely about square footage, it's also about being able to cordon it off into private areas if possible.
That would be my worry too. I don't get claustrophobic, but I get peopled out very easily and need my space. Even if it's a tiny space. It has to be a space with nobody else. Once I "decompress" I can handle people again. I've had that worry about my group if we're forced to be indoors together for an extended time. Luckily weather is good here year round and I figure I'd be out in the garden or workshop most of the time.
 
#3 ·
Ask the guys here that spent time on subs.
Some stay down for months without even sunlight.

It doesn't get more confining and claustrophobic then that.
 
#6 ·
It's not just boredom; it's crowding. Even though human beings are social beings, they need to get away and have some private time too. So it's not solely about square footage, it's also about being able to cordon it off into private areas if possible.
 
#8 ·
Some people have a better personality for it than others.

I have known guys who never could live under water / ice. But then others [like me] who have spent many years under.

The subs I was on were pretty big. There are a lot of smaller subs. For example consider the specs of the NR-1. Really tiny.

Look at the Sea-Lab projects, the guys who have lived fulltime underwater have much less free space than we had on subs.

The Japs manufactured an entire fleet of minisubs, one and two man subs that had outside diameters of less then 4 foot. The crewmen were restricted to laying or crawling.
 
#21 ·
Personal space isn't much. Berthing compartments are like cans of sardines. Even the tin can I was on had 56 guys in a space like 30'x25'. (Stacked 3 high, head to toes, with a space to allow you to get out of bed and stand up.) Granted there are some communal spaces, like the mess deck, but they can't even hold everyone at once. At least on a ship you could go out on deck for some sun and fresh air, not so on a sub.

I worked in engineering so my work space took up a large portion of the ship. Where they keep the missiles is also a large space on a sub, but not many folks in there.

Probably why liberty in port was so important, to blow off steam.
 
#15 ·
Well, if you're spending a long period of time underground (i.e.- no natural light), with some privacy (but not the type that most people have become used to), how much space do you think it would take to keep the average person entertained, if there were a few entertainment sources?
 
#16 ·
might want to have a extremely well stocked library with all sorts of novels as well as literary classics and your reference material
it will give people an ability to go other places without having to actually be anywhere also i think that if your stuck somewhere regardles of size your goina have drama hopefully youll be able to go outside least a lil bit each day would allievieate alot of problems but id say 2ppl per 8x8' area sleeping quarters
 
#48 ·
A library is a must have. And sure, I'd have some fiction in it classic and modern, and also lots of books on history, and biographies. But the one thing I would go heavy on is how to books. I buy them all the time. I am concentrating on homesteading books right now, and I suppose you could make a case for any how to book being under the flag of homesteading. I enjoy learning how to do new things. My wife thinks I'm nuts for having books on knife making, and pottery and wood carving and ... Even if we never NEED these skills, we still have the shear joy of having them.
 
#37 ·
54 square feet in a room that measures 6 x 9 feet. That cell isn't much larger than a California King size bed. That being said, along with all the other living space options the OP mentions, that small space would be adequate. I easily spend a lot of time in my head (great imagination), with books, writing, on the computer, drawing, sitting quietly or fiddling with something. If the room isn't crammed full of stuff, then it would provide some much need space to stretch and pace.
However, if it isn't a room, but a dimension allotted to each individual as part of a larger group, then it could feel cramped quickly. Composition and placement of items within the space will be key in making each person have a sense of privacy and personal space.
 
#20 ·
I have a freind who works in corrections in tennesee said that the death row block is like a country club guys get guitars and all sorts of amenities other inmates dont because there on death row
 
#28 ·
But that's the whole point when I said that's different. The men are not confined to those racks. They have a large ship to move around. The OP was asking about beng stuck for long term locked in one space. If SHTF that would mean months at the least. 50 square feet isn't going to cut it.
 
#30 ·
Your not free to just wander the ship, or sub. Most areas are only for those that work there. Even being out on the deck during 'working' hours was restricted.

Always got me, even working 4 on and 8 off. You had no place to just 'hang out' since most everyplace was closed for cleaning during the work day, including the berthing compartments, mess deck, main decks, etc. Finding places to hide was an art.

Certainly not in engineering since those places were very hot and humid. Just working there 8 hours was enough. Get stuck on 6 and 6 (really 5 and 7,7 and 5, on and off) was even worse, though you were allowed into the berthing compartment to sleep while they're blaring a radio and buffers running.
 
#34 ·
Red Cross shelter recommendations aren't for a small fallout shelter. They are assuming you are in a large structure being shared by a large group. This is easier to deal with for a number of reasons. People in the structure aren't trapped in one spot. For one thing there is a lot of area to move about in. There are a lot of things to do, Red Cross loves to hand out jobs to responsible volunteers. There is lighting, plumbing and maybe even heating. Except during the event itself, you are not prohibited form leaving. The shelter is then just a place to sleep, eat and stay warm and dry. 12 sq. ft. isn't a bad number here.

I am going to assume you are talking about a private fallout shelter. Old civil defense recommendations also typically suggest about the same area per person. The shelter designs usually don't have enough space to stand up, let alone exercise. These designs and specs are horribly inadequate for a long term stay. Even the slightest bit of claustrophobia would lead to panic attacks. I would never recommend building a long term buried shelter smaller than 20 square ft. per person or with a ceiling too low to stand up fully in.

Submariners are a special breed of person. They are selected after much psychological screening. Most people would not make the cut. You can't expect Joe Schmo off the street to act like carefully selected highly trained specialists. Even if you happen to be one of the few, the people you share your shelter with won't be.

A good radiation meter is essential for any outdoor shelter. As soon as radiation has decayed to a reasonable level (1 r/hr) you can start spending brief time outside. Depending on the intensity of the fallout contamination, this could be anything from a few hours to a couple weeks after it arrives. Just a few minutes at first to sweep a fallout free path to the residence. Once you've done this, you spend most of your time in shelter with slowly expanding breaks in the interior of the residence. Sweeping/hosing the fallout of the roof and shoveling dirt over it as as soon as practical will greatly increase the protection afforded by the structure.

If it is a basement shelter, you have a lot more freedom. You stay in the shelter itself only for the first couple days. After 2 days the radiation outside will have decayed to 1% of its 1 hour reference level. Then you would be free to roam the entire basement. A couple weeks later and radiation will have died to where you could expand the shelter area to include the interior of the house. Roof cleaning would again be well worth the effort.

You'd have to decide whether you were going on a 24 hour schedule with hot bunking or try to keep a 16/8 circadian rhythm going. Hot bunking saves space and maintains a constant state of alert. 16/8 is what you are already adapted to and is obviously better for an individual or very small group.

Sleep would not be as easy as one might think. Fear is a powerful stimulant. Might have to resort to drugs like Benedryl or Melatonin, esp. for children. Snoring would be dealt with, one way or another. You'd want adequate lighting for reading and detail work. Regular schedule for important activities like quiet time, radiation measurements and work trips outside while others, like removing human wastes could be done on an as needed basis. Some kind of seating and a table. Shelving for supplies, books and whatnot. Bunk beds to optimize space. Curtained off dark sleeping areas. Curtained off latrine corner next to the air exhaust vent.

Fear will make boredom worse but it is the confinement that leads to an extreme version of cabin fever. That is why a large commercial or public structure would probably be superior to any backyard shelter in terms of livability. We venture into pure speculation here. No one has ever had to live through TEOTAWKI spending days/weeks in what could be seen emotionally as a large coffin.

I'm just not sure what kind of distractions would work. I can't imagine any book or DVR or music would have the slightest interest for me. To the extent you could pick up external radio transmissions, I know I'd be glued to the radio. There wouldn't be that many essential tasks to keep busy. Children would be the affected the most and yet they'd stay in shelter the longest and have the least freedom to go outside. The backyard buried shelter is the worst option for livability I can think of. The best option might well be to stay asleep thru the entire affair and wake up when it is safe to go outside.
 
#39 ·
Well the wife and I have lived for just over two years in our 34ft MH. Granted we do get outside
however this winter here in Northern Ca has been a lot colder and wetter than I would like.

We have 4 days each week that usually don't have anything to do. I get up set in my chair and
just think while the wife will play games on the computer. Many of the days have been without
power and pouring rain so we just stay inside.

Do we get bored sometimes maybe a little. But we play with the dogs and just relax..

It does depend a lot on what type of person you are. My kids would not handle it at all.
I know most of my family members couldn't either.

We have about 150sf of usable space.
 
#45 ·
I don't know about everyone else, but i would get bored pretty quickly being stuck anywhere. It's a grass is always greener type of thing. I just have to learn to deal with it. Best thing for me would be a bunch of good books, some electrical circuitry sets to play with, and a couple of good people to talk to.
 
#47 ·
Hey, sorry for the large gap between posts, but I had another question that I think is worth reviving this post over.

Okay, how much space per person in a shelter should be designated as that person's "alone area" for them to be able to go to/spend some time in/sleep in when he or she wants to be alone?
 
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