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Old 11-15-2012, 04:41 AM
gondwana gondwana is offline
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Originally Posted by jazzyfizzle View Post
Do you think hell is earth, (this is a possible concept of a friend of mine here) since some think earth is Satan's dominion?
slight side step but kinda related...a bottomless pit could be the centre of the earth...if you're exactly in the centre of the earth, every way (technically) is up.

I'm convinced of that of course, however its a possible option, at least one thats easier for our mere mortal brains to cope with.

Then again that premise might be convenient yet woefully wrong. I think in the final wash up in the after life there's probabl not going to be one person without a red face...reckon we fall short now, so too will all of our current comprehension of later.

I get the feeling from the Scriptures, if we're saved we'll know everyone there (even though we will not have met many of them in our life) and I figure if every knee is bowed and everyone realises how far short we have fallen, we may actually at some point understand all there is to know that was in the Scriptures...

Think there's going to be a lot of "Oh! Oh yeah that...ok I get it"
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Old 11-15-2012, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Kay View Post
There is a "hell" of a lot to be said for that argument. I have considered it myself and I would not say no. I have always had a problem with the concept of a separate physical place for hell and heaven. After all, if we are all spirits why would we need physical spaces anyway? Perhaps we are all in hell now and our punishment is to be weighed down by our physical bodies that go wrong with the slightest provocation, having to spend most of our lives working to survive and spending one third of our lives unconscious. How much sense does that make?

All I can say is what I have said here before: When we all get to the hereafter, we will ALL be in for a lot of BIG surprises. As the words of the old song say, "We'll understand it better by and by".
Oh yes, it makes perfect sense. I have thought a great deal about the same thing- how can there be physical torture, like burning, when the body is in the ground..what is there to burn? It would mean the soul has to be burning to be being punished. Maybe that is possible and it is what they talk about in the Hebrew scriptures about the soul and a period of refinement, like working metal, refining metal.





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Originally Posted by believer0119 View Post
is azazel.supposed to be the scape goat....or the scape goat is sacrificed to azazel....

oh yep, I was just reading that and remembered. And it carried the sins of the people- I was reading which way it was- the scapegoat came first or the 'god' azalel- to be it would have to be the being azalel, since the name was given to the goat, that the goat was named after him?
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:03 AM
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Read this whole page.....I find it interesting what the apocolypse of Abraham says and really interesting what the Adventists say...cause I have to admit I have had th sae thoughts on my own....

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azazel#_



Something else though....Capricorn is the Goat (signifying the gateway to leaving of the earthly and entering into the spiritual...but also signifying bad or evil)...which just so happens to be the opposite of my sign Cancer (crab) (gateway for souls to enter the realm of the living....good...like ying yang, dark matter dark energy, good evil and so on and so forth) almost like his is the ultimate gate to pass through.

Its why you see pictures of Satan as a goat. I say this only because all the religions before and now are based on astronomical cosmological things. There's a ton of it in the Tanach.
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Caneman View Post
yes... there is a "general presence of God" that is all over the universe because He is omnipresent, but only believers in Jesus Christ contain the Personal Presence of God within them... that is the true gift of salvation = the personal Presence of Jesus Christ within by the Holy Spririt in your spirit (say that 10 time, LOL) and this is what Christians need to cultivate...
VERY well said.
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:19 AM
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Yes, with one distinction from man... Angels do not have "faith" for they SEE.

Hence, the uber-severe punishment that God reserves for those who fell, KNOWING GOD IN PERSON, their sin was greatest of all.

As far as the argument for free will goes, generally, no human actually has libertarian free will (truly free). We are all bounded by many things, from circumstances to the election and will of God. We do have a limited free moral agency, whereby we can act to do good or evil and some limited choice in that matter -- just enough to make us culpable for our sin -- but we cannot truly be free, for we are born damned because of our slavery to sin and separation from God and if we are "re-born" by the grace of God and the presence of His Holy Spirit, we merely remove one set of shackles for another as we become slaves to Christ.

That sounds rather harsh, but when we consider that Christ is ALL GOOD ALL THE TIME, we might realize that being enslaved to Him -- Son of God -- is not a bad thing at all. It means LIFE and THAT MORE ABUNDANT!

I would suggest that Adam (and Eve) as first persons, prior to the fall into sin, actually had the only true freedom of will in humanity, for they were neither slaves to sin nor slaves to Christ. As they swore fealty to the enemy of God by disobedience to God and following that enemy, they became slaves and so to their offspring -- us. They had a choice. We have little... Die or Christ/life.
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:29 AM
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...I'm a capricorn...lol


going to read...


eta see that makes sense when you see Satan called Azalel. And it is said that he taught man in 'all manner of evil things'..warfare, deception, ...AND it makes sense when I read somewhere (Enoch?) can't remember, that he remained in the heavens for a while, while 'cast out'..

eta2 from that site-




The term in the Bible is limited to three uses in Leviticus 16, where a goat is designated לַעֲזָאזֵֽל la-aza'zeyl; either "for absolute removal" or "for Azazel" and outcast in the desert as part of Yom Kippur.


.8] This Hebrew word is simply a term meaning "a goat to go away" - in other words a "scapegoat" - in verse 20-22 it describes what this accomplished by symbolically placing the sins of Israel upon the goat and then sending it to the desert and releasing it.


'a goat to go away'....seems to describe that situation with Azalel/Satan very well..

..so in no way do I want to sound blasphemous here..just throwing this out there...was this Yom Kippur ritual just a reinactment of Satan/Azalel being loaded with the sins of the people (that he helped create) and then cast out...


lol..ok eta3..- funny too, that it is a mountain and it said he stood on top of it...




The Mishnah (Yoma 39a[12]) follows the Hebrew Bible text; two goats were procured, similar in respect of appearance, height, cost, and time of selection. Having one of these on his right and the other on his left, the high priest, who was assisted in this rite by two subordinates, put both his hands into a wooden case, and took out two labels, one inscribed "for Yahweh" and the other "for absolute removal" (or "for Azazel"). The high priest then laid his hands with the labels upon the two goats and said, "A sin-offering to Yahweh" (thus speaking the Tetragrammaton); and the two men accompanying him replied, "Blessed be the name of His glorious kingdom for ever and ever."
Old 11-15-2012, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzyfizzle View Post
...I'm a capricorn...lol


going to read...


eta see that makes sense when you see Satan called Azalel. And it is said that he taught man in 'all manner of evil things'..warfare, deception, ...AND it makes sense when I read somewhere (Enoch?) can't remember, that he remained in the heavens for a while, while 'cast out'...
Lol........then you are truly my other half......lol........can't have the gate to earth without the gate to heaven. I'm sure there is way more to it than we understand. I've read that all the worlds saviors would be capricorn. Maybe that's why the adventist believe what they do.
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by believer0119 View Post
Lol........then you are truly my other half......lol........can't have the gate to earth without the gate to heaven. I'm sure there is way more to it than we understand. I've read that all the worlds saviors would be capricorn. Maybe that's why the adventist believe what they do.

...lol for sure!

Now that is very cool about the world's saviors..I have never heard that.


here is more from that..




The medieval mystic Nachmanides (1194–1270) identified the Hebrew text as referring to a demon, and identified this "Azazel" with Samael.[14] However, he did not see the sending of the goat as honouring Azazel as a deity, but as a symbolic expression of the idea that the people's sins and their evil consequences were to be sent back to the spirit of desolation and ruin, the source of all impurity. The very fact that the two goats were presented before God, before the one was sacrificed and the other sent into the wilderness, was proof that Azazel was not ranked alongside God, but regarded simply as the personification of wickedness in contrast with the righteous government of God.[13]


it says from the Apocolypse of Abraham-



He is also associated with the serpent and hell. In Chapter 23, verse 7, he is described as having seven heads, 14 faces, "hands and feet like a man's [and] on his back six wings on the right and six on the left."

ahh yep, here is part from what the Adventists believe..what I was thinking before..


They believe that Satan will finally have to bear the responsibility for the sins of the believers of all ages, and that this was foreshadowed on the Day of Atonement when the high priest confessed the sins of Israel over the head of the scapegoat. (Leviticus 16:21)
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Old 11-15-2012, 06:54 PM
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No -earth is not Hell. Satan does have free run of the earth thus causing each person to choose which to follow...God or Satan. Hell is depicted as a lake of fire; a place where those there will be in torment for eternity. I think its unfortunate that people under-estimate or comprehend just how tormented they will be there. The bible speaks of Satan roaming the earth like a lion looking for prey. Earth may have some appearances of hell perhaps with all the hate, crime, and violence around us, but trust me - it will be far worse!!!
Old 11-15-2012, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Caneman View Post
1 Cor 6:3 "Do you not know that we will judge angels?"

God made man greater than angels, for the lesser can not judge the greater....

You have take this scripture out of context. Mankind is afforded opportunities for further development. After this life some people will be raised to a higher station than others. Those persons of a higher station will judge those of a lowr station. Some angels are lower ( like satan for example.)

Generally, though, angels are higher than man. However, some people will prove more worthy than some angels. In the scripture whose context you changed, it was refering to the Saints of God judging angels. It was not refering to mere mortals.

Vrs 2 & 3 talk about the Saints judging the world and angels. A "saint" as God defines it, out-ranks mere moratls anyday.

A Saint ( living or dead ) out-ranks all mere mortals, hands down.

The Saints will judge the world and angels. Though, I will add the Saints will not judge ALL angels. There are angels that out-rank Saints. There is a whole heirarchy to angels.

Unless you prove worthy to be recognized as a Saint by God, do not expect to be judging angels.

Saints will judge angels. Remember though, some angels will not be judged by Saints.

Last edited by Tacitus; 11-15-2012 at 07:45 PM.. Reason: more was added.
Old 11-15-2012, 08:09 PM
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If man is to judge the angels or anyone then The only ones I believe who will be judging anything or anyone will be those who have learned, truly learned goodness, love, forgiveness, kindness, all that is good and all that God represents. How could current day unmerciful man represent our Father who is Love? If there is some ranking then I can only imagine is is based on how mature you have become in the Spirit in all that is good.
Old 11-18-2012, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ohioman View Post
yes, i am married to the most beautiful of them all, and she most certainly has a free will!
lololololol!
Old 11-18-2012, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzyfizzle View Post
Do you think angelic beings have free will to choose what they will do?


Or do you think the have no free will of their own?


(or any other understanding)
I don't think anyone knows for sure, except God. In evangelical circles there is "in house" debate amongst Christians on freedom of the will.

My own view is to assume they have free will, like I believe we have free will. To me it would make much sense judging a being either angelic or human the accountability of its actions if its actions were beyond it's control.

I would suspect a Calvinist who had deterministic leanings would support the idea that angel don't have free will just like they would be supportive of the notion that humanity does not have free will.

Regards,

Mudcat
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