The Romans 14:5 Sabbath Debate

[OhioMan]

Originally Posted by The Saint

Well the good news is, most (and I mean 99%) of the people I have spoken to about the HRM have never even heard of them.

I didn't even know they existed until the boards.

yeah same here, 99.9999% of it is just on-line followers. I honestly think the vast majority of them just pay lip service and love to debate stuff, they really aren't really even involved and most aren't even believers.

Remember the Sabbath gun show and the sabbath day boat rides...even they don't take it seriously.

[The Saint]

Originally Posted by OhioMan

yeah same here, 99.9999% of it is just on-line followers. I honestly think the vast majority of them just pay lip service and love to debate stuff, they really aren't really even involved and most aren't even believers.

Remember the Sabbath gun show and the sabbath day boat rides...even they don't take it seriously.

yes its been a do as I say and not as I do stance. laughable.

[joshua79109]

I am another one that had not ever heard the term HRM prior to reading the religious section here at SB.

And I am not new to my beliefs about the Law.

I have long enjoyed historical and cultural studies of Biblical times and even where things went after those times. A lot of folks who study these things will call them studies of Jewish or Hebrew origin / roots though. I wouldn't say that a huge number of Christians enjoy these sorts of studies, but I think there are a decent number. I also have a strong desire to visit Israel and see some of it for myself. I've come close to going, but I still have young kiddos and that has kept me from going (just a personal choice). I think that is something (visiting Israel) that a good number of Christians are interested in though.

I think that a good number of folks who get 'labeled' as HRM here, really are not. I think that some of the folks who really are HRM believe the label is really misused. Some of what has gone on is really just a projection of some beliefs of individuals onto others. I think that part of that is due to how we are left to discuss things here, online. It's really difficult to 'see' who people really are. Especially when we get caught up in the discussion about what this or that specific Scripture really means.

It's somewhat tough, because I actually have a desire to sharpen with others here like many of yall do. I have always tried to keep it to a discussion about what I do, but then a lot of times the discussion turns to what Christians 'should' do. In reality, most of the time, when I'm in a discussion here I'm just trying to explain my position or get a better understanding of a position held by someone else. That process often spins out, here.

We are all at different points in our walk. Sometimes it's really tough to give people room to grow when we are in the middle of our discussion here. In person it seems so much more natural and easy to see when we need to allow folks some room to grow and for others to see when we just need a little room to grow. Often here is seems tremendously more about arguing a position than it does about fellowship or discipleship.

I get the feeling that so much of this issue is related to not being in person. It appears that many of us have a harder time being patient with others here than we do in person.

Blessings

[Standox]

Originally Posted by OhioMan

Interesting video Standox, do you know this mans name? I wanted to see if I could find more video/teachings to find out exactly what he is teaching.

There does seem to be those who are trying to mix Judaism and Christian teaching together in some weird blend but I have agreed with you on this...it can't be done, the obstacles are just too numerous. I do think the disire to do this coming from Christians camps and not Jewish camps.

There is nothing wrong with getting along and even having peaceful fellowship and celebrating a common ancestry but we are talking oil and water.

rabbi ralph messer, simchat torah beit midrash is his community name, Monte Judah, Ralph Messer, Danny Miller were all rabbi,s who got there start on the front range of Colorado, I know all of them, was there when they split, Monte went to Oklahoma I think, Messer stayed in Denver and Miller started a Orthodox Messinic community in Ft Collins, im friends with Millers kids, I used to buy kosher meat from them lol, organic grass fed for cheap, his kids are orthodox Jewish an don't attend his service, me and Danny Miller used to study together, an he had a radio program for some years here, nice guy, very serious, Messer is a joke, used to sell insurance til one day he woke up an said he was a rabbi who spent time in Chabad, I know every Chabad rabbi in Colorado personally, he was never involved anywhere, he never learned from them, they started Torah studies in my town an I went, Messer invited me to his service so I went a couple times, he taught a good lesson, but during the meal I asked him nicey what he thought of the section of Gemara he taught out of and if more people there were interested in that stuff, wow! didn't go over so well, he made my wife cry

long story short I was taken care of some people in his community, lived in my basement for free, they were made to move out, and the friends I made in the torah study all stopped being my friend, they even slandered me by name on the internet once

[Catherine_MT]

Originally Posted by Standox

rabbi ralph messer, simchat torah beit midrash is his community name, Monte Judah, Ralph Messer, Danny Miller were all rabbi,s who got there start on the front range of Colorado, I know all of them, was there when they split, Monte went to Oklahoma I think, Messer stayed in Denver and Miller started a Orthodox Messinic community in Ft Collins, im friends with Millers kids, I used to buy kosher meat from them lol, organic grass fed for cheap, his kids are orthodox Jewish an don't attend his service, me and Danny Miller used to study together, an he had a radio program for some years here, nice guy, very serious, Messer is a joke, used to sell insurance til one day he woke up an said he was a rabbi who spent time in Chabad, I know every Chabad rabbi in Colorado personally, he was never involved anywhere, he never learned from them, they started Torah studies in my town an I went, Messer invited me to his service so I went a couple times, he taught a good lesson, but during the meal I asked him nicey what he thought of the section of Gemara he taught out of and if more people there were interested in that stuff, wow! didn't go over so well, he made my wife cry

long story short I was taken care of some people in his community, lived in my basement for free, they were made to move out, and the friends I made in the torah study all stopped being my friend, they even slandered me by name on the internet once

Holy moly!

Wow, I am sorry that happened to you but live and learn. God stood by you and led you and your family OUT of that situation and those people.

I have a friend on the other side of the continental divide who lives in MT and he and his family had something like that happen to them. They were in some type of a Christian (?) church that I never heard of 'religious wise' and the LID blew open on that group in COLORADO. NO KIDDING AND IT WAS IN COLORADO TOO. Not saying that it only happens in CO. (I do know of a couple of gun/political people from there - good guys and some that I can't stand too.) Anyway back to my MT friends, they left their church, there was shunning of some type for people who were his friends, them too, and they eventually moved to Montana. He LEFT it all - religious wise. (He made good money when he sold his place in Colorado though from what I gather.) HE IS NOT RELIGIOUS AT ALL NOW! He saw who and what those people were all about big time and he was involved with them for a long time. They were into some homesteading issues and so forth. He thought that he was in a good community of believers too - he thought that for a LONG time.

Do you think that there is a LINK between some of these religious groups (No specific name.) that most of us do not know about who are involved in these matters other than just homesteading, survival, home schooling, etc.? I am NOT knocking those issues for people AND many of them are self reliant just as we are even if some of us are NOT into some things that they are in, we don't home school or have children, we do not consider ourselves some survivalist as a name, etc.

Do they think that their 'remnant' includes ONLY them in their 'Christian' type of religion intertwined with something else? They or some of them say that it is ONLY them - only them that God will save. To most of them it means Jesus will only SAVE THEM and NO one else.

I do know that many religions SHUN people too. Not just in the Christian religions.

What do you think TIES all of these people together where they always SEE or HEAR some bad news and they post on VARIOUS WEBSITES that they want the END OF THE WORLD TO COME and Jesus to save them and end it all in a hurry?

They will write something like this:

Come Lord Jesus! Hurry up Jesus. The world can't end fast enough for them. Some of them salivate for WARS too. Mideast wars, civil war here in the USA, etc. They go on and on about this type of rapture or that type of rapture. Etc.

I would type more of what they say in a more specific manner but you most likely have seen it and read it on various forums - ones something like this SB forum.

Anyway... there are many groups out there in ALL kinds of religions where they do this to people.

When you read about some religious and political CULT issues, true cult rescues and mind control issues when it comes to RELIGION, politics, etc. - it is frightening in my opinion.

I realize that many people will say that one man's cult is another man's religion to me too. I am NOT saying that all people in any specific religion are in a CULT either. To each their own.

Thank you ahead of time.

Catherine

[OhioMan]

Originally Posted by Standox

rabbi ralph messer, simchat torah beit midrash is his community name, Monte Judah, Ralph Messer, Danny Miller were all rabbi,s who got there start on the front range of Colorado, I know all of them, was there when they split, Monte went to Oklahoma I think, Messer stayed in Denver and Miller started a Orthodox Messinic community in Ft Collins, im friends with Millers kids, I used to buy kosher meat from them lol, organic grass fed for cheap, his kids are orthodox Jewish an don't attend his service, me and Danny Miller used to study together, an he had a radio program for some years here, nice guy, very serious, Messer is a joke, used to sell insurance til one day he woke up an said he was a rabbi who spent time in Chabad, I know every Chabad rabbi in Colorado personally, he was never involved anywhere, he never learned from them, they started Torah studies in my town an I went, Messer invited me to his service so I went a couple times, he taught a good lesson, but during the meal I asked him nicey what he thought of the section of Gemara he taught out of and if more people there were interested in that stuff, wow! didn't go over so well, he made my wife cry

long story short I was taken care of some people in his community, lived in my basement for free, they were made to move out, and the friends I made in the torah study all stopped being my friend, they even slandered me by name on the internet once

Thanks Standox, I read lots about him last night.

I couldn't believe this:

You Tube

Another link: http://jewishisrael.ning.com/profile...ph-messer-stor

Popular Christian messianic missionary and Hebraic roots teacher "Rabbi" Ralph Messer, wrapping mega-church leader Eddie Long in a Torah scroll and crowning him as a king, has become a viral punch in the gut for Jews of all persuasions, and has caused members of various evangelical sects to shift into damage-control mode.

[Ani l'Dodi v'Dodi li]

Originally Posted by Standox

Messer is a joke

Boy, oh boy.

[Catherine_MT]

Originally Posted by OhioMan

Thanks Standox, I read lots about him last night.

I couldn't believe this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CLkcmnwVl0

Another link: http://jewishisrael.ning.com/profile...ph-messer-stor

Popular Christian messianic missionary and Hebraic roots teacher "Rabbi" Ralph Messer, wrapping mega-church leader Eddie Long in a Torah scroll and crowning him as a king, has become a viral punch in the gut for Jews of all persuasions, and has caused members of various evangelical sects to shift into damage-control mode.

Wow! I only got through a part of that and I may (?) finish watching it later on but I DOUBT it! Four men just picked up this man, bla, bla and bla.



Catherine
PS: You don't want to know what I think about most boob tube preachers and that includes a LOT of mainstream ones too. Ugh.

[Standox]

Originally Posted by OhioMan

Thanks Standox, I read lots about him last night.

I couldn't believe this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CLkcmnwVl0

Another link: http://jewishisrael.ning.com/profile...ph-messer-stor

Popular Christian messianic missionary and Hebraic roots teacher "Rabbi" Ralph Messer, wrapping mega-church leader Eddie Long in a Torah scroll and crowning him as a king, has become a viral punch in the gut for Jews of all persuasions, and has caused members of various evangelical sects to shift into damage-control mode.

you see how he is using kabbalistic ideas like 22, cells looking like Hebrew letters etc, yet he will condemn the rabbi that showed that true, he is no reprehensive of Israel, notice how he bragged about not touching the scroll, all rabbinic ideas, that Torah scroll 300 years old is worth 50,000$, the scroll Danny has and uses is from the Holocaust and still has muddy german boot prints in it, where they trampled it into the ground, I held it an it made cry

[Standox]

Originally Posted by Ani l'Dodi v'Dodi li

Boy, oh boy.

I,ll leave Jim Staley alone and the rest, I mainly have a big problem with messer and company