NBC noob here, couple questions on NBC gear.

[RossO]

Do not forget you will need to protect your food, water and other supplies.

[RossO]

If the CBRN folks here went through any training from (2006-2009) to included AIT, back then (BNCOC, ANCOC) BOLC, Capt. Career Course, much of the training at the Terry Training facility me or some somebody on my team probably trained you. If you think you are automatically or instantly a casualty you must not have paid attention to what you were being trained on.

[Bacon sentry]

I'd get a Israeli civilian gas mask, cheap, durable, and comfortable; I have one, but beware of filters, they can be old as they are 40mm NATO filters. 40mm NATO filters fit on any gas mask that use them, unlike gas masks like the M17. If you want to use the Israeli civilian gas mask in a firefight with nerve gas and stuff poppin' around you, and you have a rifle, YOU WILL not be able to aim, as the filter goes directly infront of the mask. Its ok, I can put it in my backpack when I go to school.

[Christo Chance]

NBC? I am more worried about Dumb-ass Drivers, In The Event of NBC You WILL Run OUT of Filters, Food, Water, Toilet Paper, hygiene Items.
I am NOT SAYING DO NOT BE PREPARED, Lets just Bring Reality into this. If a NBC attack has not happened in D.C, L.A, Miami, New Orleans, Las Vegas, I think the chances of McComb MS, Athens, GA, or Cimmaron, NM are on the slim side. If there is going to be a NBC in reality You are Looking at High Profile Concentrations of People Like Foot ball games(NCAA or NFL), NBA, Parades (Mardi Gras or Thanksgiving Day) or Malls.
All I Am Saying is "IF" is the Middle word in life, You can "What If" yourself until You Never leave your House(That's how Terrorism Works) Be Prepared, Stay Alert, Stay vigilante, THEN GO OUT AND LIVE YOUR LIFE.

[Tuirc]

I tend to be VERY dubious about any equipment to saying that it is going to provide you protection in an NBC (CBRN) environment. I say this for a few reasons. In the military, since it was mandatory that we have the full suit and mask with us most of the time and we would probably use it to get the hell out of dodge and get decon'd someplace, we might have had a chance. (Alternatively, they could have told us to attack, in which case we probably would have died from either acute lead poisoning or the chemicals finally getting through our masks and suits). Basically, you have 6 hours.

So, you need to be very clear on your goals when you go down the road with NBC equipment. You need to understand that there are agents that will eat your filters and then your blood. When I first got NBC training, they used to train us to put Amyl Nitrate capsules (poppers) in our mask as a blood agent antidote....lol. I guess it people pretty much figured out they were just doping us so we wouldn't mind dying so much. So they stopped that training and told us there was no treatment. You may have as long as 4 hours to get more filters with blood agent.

Nerve agent. If one drop gets on your skin, you're dead. If you are in the military, (and i'm sure this has changed) you can hit yourself with up to 3 atropine autoinjectors and hope like hell somebody comes by to take you to a hospital. You can also hit yourself with a 2pam cloride autoinjector each time you do the atropine to try to off set the effects of the atropine. But, if it's nerve agent, you're pretty much dead no matter what antics you get up to before hand.

Dirty bomb. Now you have a realistic chance of survival it seems to me. A mask and some protective clothing may do you some good in this case. Get out fast. If you can't get out fast, go generally upwind and try to get out of the effected area as fast as you can. Reduce exposure and be ready to immediately strip and decon and don clean non-effected clothing ASAP. Then get away from the decon area as fast as possible.

Anything else that you can survive will follow the procedures of the dirty bomb. Same advice.

CS/CN. Good reason to have a mask. Extreme rule of law is a real possibility. A mask and other protective gear may give you a fighting chance against what's coming through the door next. Suck them in and hit them with greater violence of action than they hit you. You'll have the element of surprise on your side. Good luck.

Bottom line, not too many good things are going to happen to you in an NBC environment. It turns the very air you breath to stay alive against you. It is not something that you can purchase your way out of. You need training, logistics, some equipment and a lot of luck. In any case, decide what your goals are (and they can't be hunker down), then train for it.

[Tuirc]

Originally Posted by RossO

If the CBRN folks here went through any training from (2006-2009) to included AIT, back then (BNCOC, ANCOC) BOLC, Capt. Career Course, much of the training at the Terry Training facility me or some somebody on my team probably trained you. If you think you are automatically or instantly a casualty you must not have paid attention to what you were being trained on.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that, but you have to admit that the military has a great advantage in this as to what could reasonably be replicated by a civilian. We had masks with us that we could all don in 7 seconds of a warning. We could all be MOPP4 in 7 min. or whatever. And that's just the beginning. We had the logistics for decon locations staffed with people that knew what they were doing do decon equipment and people. As civilians we'll probably have none of that.

It's not that it's not possible to survive and quickly exit a contaminated area. It is. Assuming you have protective gear with you and a way to move quickly out of a contaminated area. I work in DC just like the OP. It would be challenging to get out of DC in a SHTF situation, but I think I can do it in all seasons, even though I have to cross the water to get home. In an NBC situation with speed at a premium, I think I would be have to be exceedingly lucky to make it out in the few hours I would have if I had the gear to get to MOPP4. I won't have that. I'm not going to put an Ice Pack under my desk. So, it depends on what we get hit with, like I said in my earlier post. But, even if I get out, my house is 40 miles away. I need to decon before that.

I'll end on a positive note. All of these agents are effected by the wind. Concentrations are variable. And, usually, areas don't stay contaminated very long. (Outside). Also, if it is a terrorist attack and not nation-state, it's likely to be far less effective than a wartime NBC attack. So, keep a positive attitude and get it your best shot. But, respect what you are up against.

[Captain Bomblast]

Christo & Tuirc: First of all, welcome to the forum. You are correct that, if exposed to high-grade weaponized blood, nerve, bio agents you are likely done for, you might be overlooking the fact that these types of agents are extremely localized and temperature sensitive. Direct sunlight, rain, wind, cold/heat, etc. all will impact the effectiveness of these chemicals. The military trained you for a worst-case scenerio... and one in which you are directly targeted and one in which you are expected to continue on your mission... we would just want to get out of the way safely.

Christo, yes it is unlikely any of us will be exposed to these things, but it is a real possibility that a fire, prolonged power outage, explosion, flood, etc. could release any number of TIC/TIM type chemicals into the areas surrounding any facility that manufactures or uses large quantities of nasties... and there are many such facilities all over, even in rural areas. A fire in a chemical plant near where I work bellowed out some pretty toxic smoke and many people were put in the hospital... no deaths, but I'm sure it didn't add to the longevity of those folks.

It depends on where you live, where you travel, etc. If you spend all your time in the country and stay off of highways and out of industrial areas, you might not need to worry much. If you go anywhere near cities, there is a good chance you are also very near to some pretty toxic chemicals... it pays to be prepared for those things. No real special training is necessary; it is a good idea to be familiar with filter/mask types and what they will do/not do, but it's not rocket science. A Tyvec/Tychem type suit is cheap and will protect a person from most stuff, there is really no great need for a full MOPP suit (couldn't hurt, though).

[♥♥Mad.Cat♥♥]

Build an underground bunker with an NBC filter and a couple years of long term food storage. I know a guy that bought some random land in the middle of nowhere in Eastern Oregon and put a bunker 15 feet underground. Of course he won't say where it is but I seen pictures. Was pretty cool.

[cbrndude]

Chewie,

I'm currently enlisted in the USAF with 8 yrs experience as a CBRN instructor. I have to be honest some of the answer you are getting from people aren't exactly spot on. For starters, there is plenty you can do to be prepared at all times from a CBRN attack/threat. There are several models of protective escape masks out there that cover your entire head and are very compact. Add a roll of chemical tape, surgical gloves, and a level B tyvek suit w/hood and you'll still have plenty of leftover room in your pack for other items while being as prepared as possible with just a pack. It all depends on what you're escaping from though; with CBRN the possibilities are almost endless. However, what I just listed would be enough to effectively bug out of an area and provide at least 12 hours of protection from most airborne CBRN threats.

I could literally talk for weeks on this though so feel free to ask me more specific questions and I'll do my best to answer them.

[cbrndude]

Originally Posted by Captain Bomblast

One thing worth looking into would be home decon methods... that's something I don't know much about. absorbing, rinsing, neutralizing NBC junk is surely do-able in a home environment with the right materials... that's a next-on-the-list, I guess.

Believe it or not, a really simple way to decon rad (only alpha and beta particles obviously) is masking tape...Gamma or nuetron and there's bigger problems to worry about...

[Tuirc]

@ Captain Bomblast I agree, I think I mentioned that in my post, re just getting out of the area safely. I'm sure if you are in an area that has industrial hazards, lesser measures maybe quite useful even in the case of industrial accident and not some sort of attack.

I'm not in an industrial area, I'm just in an area that would be the subject of a directed attack. So, I have to think about the worst case scenario for this area. Unfortunately, I spend 8-10 hours a day in the the belly of the beast in DC.

[CPL_BS_88]

Originally Posted by ♥♥Mad.Cat♥♥

Build an underground bunker with an NBC filter and a couple years of long term food storage. I know a guy that bought some random land in the middle of nowhere in Eastern Oregon and put a bunker 15 feet underground. Of course he won't say where it is but I seen pictures. Was pretty cool.

easier said than done...there are building permits, land, and supplies...all of which would cost, at the very low end of a basic shelter NOT rated for blasts, somewhere on the order of $20k. When I priced it out for me to build a four person shelter, and believe me, I am a frugal DIY type, it was going to be about $50k! I don't remember the exact blast rating but it was like level 1 or 2...nothing fancy, just enough to keep you alive should a blast wave pass over.

You could do it for about 5k but that's more of an expedient method...not something I'd willfully build and trust my family in.

[mgriffen]

Hey I have a question that will probably make all of you think I am an idiot but...
I have a Siberian Husky that is not only a best friend but a valuable asset to my survival post SHTF.
Does anyone know if they make Radiation suits for animals?

[Captain Bomblast]

Originally Posted by mgriffen

Hey I have a question that will probably make all of you think I am an idiot but...
I have a Siberian Husky that is not only a best friend but a valuable asset to my survival post SHTF.
Does anyone know if they make Radiation suits for animals?

Any kind of negative pressure mask would not work with pets. I think you would need a hood with a powered blower. You could probably make your dog a suit from cut-up and re-sewn tyvec... even little booties. The blower and filter could be worn on a dog backpack with a hose into the hood for positive pressure. I have never seen a dog-specific suit, but one could be made fairly easily.

[CPL_BS_88]

Originally Posted by Captain Bomblast

Any kind of negative pressure mask would not work with pets. I think you would need a hood with a powered blower. You could probably make your dog a suit from cut-up and re-sewn tyvec... even little booties. The blower and filter could be worn on a dog backpack with a hose into the hood for positive pressure. I have never seen a dog-specific suit, but one could be made fairly easily.

yep, all my research brings up a positive pressure unit that is basically a hood. They make large enclosures that fit around kennels too.

[mgriffen]

Originally Posted by Captain Bomblast

Any kind of negative pressure mask would not work with pets. I think you would need a hood with a powered blower. You could probably make your dog a suit from cut-up and re-sewn tyvec... even little booties. The blower and filter could be worn on a dog backpack with a hose into the hood for positive pressure. I have never seen a dog-specific suit, but one could be made fairly easily.

So Tyvec would work for Radiation? (I'm sure if I read through the forums some more I would already have the answer to that question) I was reading a little bit about Demron material but I think getting just the material to make a suite would either be impossible or very expensive. Awesome idea with the blower attached to his backpack. Probably room for his food and the blower. Hes 88 pounds so he can supposedly carry 30 pounds on a daily basis.

[Captain Bomblast]

Originally Posted by mgriffen

So Tyvec would work for Radiation? (I'm sure if I read through the forums some more I would already have the answer to that question) I was reading a little bit about Demron material but I think getting just the material to make a suite would either be impossible or very expensive. Awesome idea with the blower attached to his backpack. Probably room for his food and the blower. Hes 88 pounds so he can supposedly carry 30 pounds on a daily basis.

Yep. Tyvec would would protect you (or your dog) from radiation... there are, however, several types of Tyvec... and I'm not sure which would work best, but a bit of research would get you the answer. You know, with a bit of work, you could probably construct a custom hood for your dog... a few simple materials. Getting your dog to actually keep the thing on would be a different story! My dog once had to wear one of those cones (the cone of shame) and would drag his head around to try and remove it.

[GG42]

If anyone remember OPs point, he has a solution already: goggles, P100 mask. The really important piece of gear was mentioned only once, in passing: escape mask with O2 canister. More important than the rest combined (IMO, of course). The gear in the car is an excellent idea. Make and model is unimportant (without a rifle).
About a suit for dog: keep in mind that in fallout situation, the closer one to the ground the higher the dose (exponentially), The dog would probably get a dose 6-10 times higher than a man. A suit would help, of course.

[ACA1001]

Hey all, was reading through this thread and just wanted to make a few additional points:

1) They do make NBC gear for pets and also for infants. Basically, in layman's terms, picture something like a giant ziplock bag that you put the infant inside of, or in the case of the pet, you put the pet into a kennel and then put the kennel itself inside of the "bag," then seal it up. It has attached to it a filtration canister.

2) Regarding NBC threats, one point I just wanted to also make is remember that not all such threats are from war or terrorists. You could have an earthquake that causes a "Fukashima" here and you just want to be able to move you and your family out of the area. Or you could have, as has been mentioned, a chemical spill. I live in Le Roy, NY, and in 1970 there was a train derailment that caused a Superfund-designated chemical spill. This is also the town that was in the news last year for the girls getting the strange tourettes-like symptoms, although it has been found that this was not due to exposure to chemicals at the spill site. But I mean if something like that was to happen again, having things like respiratory masks and suits could be handy to just move out of the area safely.

In addition, there are all different levels of threat for all kinds of protection I'd imagine, it's like if you have your vehicle armored up or armor your home up or learn wilderness survival. Well to what degree? There's vehicle armor to just stop a basic handgun to stopping weapons like M-16s and AK-47s and even grenades, and then of course even then, there are still weapons the vehicle would not hold up against, that you'd need a tank to withstand (and even the tank has limits!). The idea is just to have certain protections that in certain situations, the lack of them could cost you your life whereas having them could save it. Same with your home. If you armor it to keep out or stall your standard burglar, that's different then if you were trying to armor it to keep out a full-scale assault or something in the event of a breakdown of society.

Or even with wilderness survival. There's all sorts of stuff there, in terms of how to navigate, how to build tools out of rocks and sticks, build basic dishes (pots and bowls), how to filter water in basic ways, what plants you can and cannot eat, etc...but I mean just learning some survival basics without being an expert could save your life in a nasty situation. It doesn't mean you have to be trained to survive in the wilderness as if society disappeared. For example, learning how to build a basic shelter just so that you don't freeze to death if lost in the wilderness and the temperature drops. This could range from a snowcave if there's snow all over and a blizzard starts to something made with sticks and leaves.

With NBC protection, I view it similarly. It's not necessarilly so you can survive World War III, it's just in the event you encounter an NBC threat where having gear could help you get out of the area safely. Being in a rural area doesn't mean you couldn't face such a threat.