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Why not use lethal means?

16K views 118 replies 52 participants last post by  Cynical Misanthrope 
#1 ·
Why would a person choose to defend himself or herself (self-defense) with non-lethal means?. It would seem to me if I had a need to defend myself against harm, lethal means would be the most effective way.

Self-defense...is a countermeasure that involves defending the well-being of oneself ...from harm. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-defense
harm -

noun
physical injury, especially that which is deliberately inflicted.
synonyms: injury, hurt, pain, trauma

verb
physically injure.
synonyms: injure, hurt, wound, lay a finger on, maltreat, mistreat, misuse, ill-treat, ill-use, abuse, molest
https://www.google.com/search?q=non...j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8#q=harm
 
#49 ·
I avoid confrontations. If I'm pushed to the point to where I have to defend myself, I can only assume they want to kill me. I'm not going to pretend to know what some lunatics motives are, but I can make sure that I'm alive to talk about it the next day. The key is to do whatever is necessary to leave and pray they don't put you into a position that you have to finish what they started.
 
#3 ·
Maybe I didn't word the question the way I was seeing it in my head.

What I was seeing is what I think of as a self-defense situation, a situation where a person is in fear of physical harm. I was thinking something like being grabbed in a dark parking lot, waking to find an intruder standing over the bed or being in one of those "active shooter" situations looking at the wrong end of a gun.

In those situations I would always use lethal force, first time, every time.

Wouldn't everyone? If not why not?
 
#19 ·
In those instances yes, lethal is justified. IMHO

For me personally;
I'm not gonna pretend I'm some highly trained keyboard ninja and say i can take anyone who try's to hurt me. My ninjutsu isn't Batman levels yet.

I will defend myself by whatever means necessary. No ifs ands or buts about it. Try to do me harm and I will stop you however I can. I won't play fair about it.

I also don't give a crap if a guy is mentally "unstable" if he is trying to kill me. Would you use kid gloves if he was going after your child? Your wife?

If things have gotten so bad that I have to point a gun at a human being it won't be a sand bag in that shotgun. Killing a person is last resort, therefore so is a gun to me.

YMMV
 
#6 ·
I see what you're getting at, and I would agree on the surface that the thugs in general simply need a dirt knap. But the reality is every situation is different. I'll use the level of force necessary to end the threat, nothing more. If it means using lethal force, so be it and won't lose a moment of sleep over it. But rarely is it the case, and ending life is a very serious matter.
 
#9 ·
Why would a person choose to defend himself or herself (self-defense) with non-lethal means?
1. Because I don't want to go to jail.

2. Because the drunk 105 lb women don't need to die.

3. Because I am highly skilled and don't need a gun unless they have a deadly weapon.

4. Because I am strong, not weak, and don't need to compensate.

5. Because not every person who attacks you is in their right mind (e.g. elderly dementia, kids throwing a fit, your emotionally distraught wife)
 
#45 ·
I agree with all of this.. I had a burglar 3 weeks ago. I scared him off then proceeded to track him home. Lived about a half mile from me, imagine that..

Anyway, we are having a lot of thefts here due to the heroin epidemic in my area of America. The local LE says, protect your property if you have to otherwise get as much information as possible and give it to them and they will do what they can. My cop buddies are all overwhelmed with the heroin epidemic and the crimes it spawns.

Anyway, I followed this guy around for a day and let him see me a few times and I'd say, hello cupcake! How are ya? Man, I'll kill you, you wanna go?
Naw, I'm good.. That dance went on a few times and he was too dumb to understand how close to death he was had been that type of person.. He had so much hate in him, it was sad.. I eventually waited for him to go by and I followed him home and we had a comin to Jesus meetin in his driveway,me him and his wife.. I coulda killed em both on several occasions if I'd wanted to. No challenge there but I felt for them, they are hillbilly trash that lives in extreme poverty and honestly if I could help them I would, it's very saddening and I am very blessed compared to them. They probably wont be breaking and entering for a while..

Why would you wanna just kill another human? That's not the answer..
I was taught in the military how to kill very efficiently but that doesn't mean I should do it because I am good at it..
Unless you're being directly attacked and you or your loved ones are in danger, you don't need to a human life..
It's far more difficult to forgive and love one another than it is to go into war mode.. Anytime I have ever gotten into war mode it has left me with regret for the things I have done against my fellow man..

When I was a boot we had these quotes all around base from this great Marine named Major Gene Duncan. He has written many books but When the Bugle Calls was the one that resonated with me and this quote in patricular.

It went something like, a true warrior kills with one hand and loves with the other. Basically a true warrior has balance, having been washed in the blood of the warrior ethos that was the USMC this mans writings were the things that guided this young jarhead and turned him into the man he is today..
I never met Major Duncan and he died in 2011 but he shaped many a young man thru his words and leadership.
Sorry for the rant but this resonated with me and I had to share..
 
#98 ·
You bought your wife a gun. How much training do you and your wife have in the used of firearms? I strongly suggest that both of you begin to take training on the use of fire arms, the laws about the use of firearms, including CCW classes.

I hate to say, but an untrained person with a firearm becomes dangerous to themselves, and perhaps to society. The training my wife and I take includes use of all other modalities of self defense, as well as the proper use of the fire arm. Then practice, and review the laws--and the consequence of the laws. In your case, you probably better get some good insurance to protect you if you do happen to use a firearm in self defense. You have declared on an open forum an intent,--that might come back to bite you.

Training should include how to avoid potentially dangerous situations, and how to handle them without lethal force. Situational awareness is paramount in avoiding trouble--and then acting to extract or protect yourself. Many confrontations can be defused, or escalated by your actions--For us, the goal is to avoid having to use lethal force. But if absolutely necessary--use it properly.
 
#11 ·
Some people CAN be taught. Teens raiding your garden deserve a good thrashing, not death. That's why they invented thrashing. Unarmed strong-arm punks after your wallet in a parking lot respond well to tazers. Nasty mannered children who can't stay out of your garage learn much from pepper spray.

It really is good for your own soul to keep the body count low. Unless someone's death or bodily safety is in question, you don't get to kill them. But you do need to teach them a lesson.
 
#12 ·
Also you need to think how you will justify your actions to a jury of your peers.

I was going on my way to x
when confronted by Y
I then proceeded to back away instructing Y to not come any closer as his actions where being construed as hostile
Y continued advancing at me with what appeared to be a weapon while communicating intent to visit bodily harm
I deployed tazer or whatever
it failed so I deployed firearm
in process of attacking me Y expired.

Some way to explain your ROE/escalation of force in a concise manner like alot of us had to do in iraq will keep you out of slot of hot water

As you can clearly verbalize the entire process in steps
Like in iraq our roe was
shout (verbalize command to cease)
show (use cool Lazer pointer/ flag or bring rifle up ect)
shoot (warning shot. Don't do civ side)
shoot. (Disabling shot viechles)
shoot. (Killing shot)

Now that's what the technical roe was when I was there in practice things may have been slightly different

But for anyone who CC OC or in any capacity may forsee the potential for using violence in self defence start thinking now how you will explain your escalation of force in a manner even a retard can ubderstand

Even if lethal force is not used. Good to have as to why you maced, tazed, ran over ect.. someone
 
#13 ·
The main goal of self defense is to stop someone who is trying to harm. Nowadays in an age when less-lethal weapons are getting more to be an option, self-defense does not have to always involve the death or serious bodily harm of an attacker. I carry pepper spray, a sharp metal pen, AND a yawara when I go out. I kind of feel confident that if someone with a deadly gun (like a pistol) comes to try to hurt or mug me, I would stop him with pepper spray to keep him from harming me. Some gun advocates might say that is not effective and that I am "bringing a knife to a gunfight". But in some situations, certain types of mace or OC can stop someone with a gun.

I am not saying that guns should be banned. In fact, I support the 2nd amendment and this amendment BTW makes sure all the other amendments we take for granted are in place. But right now, I cannot afford a gun, CCL, and ammo. But if I can, I would get a revolver handgun with speedloaders. Even then, I would still carry my pepper spray and my yawara alongside with the gun. So the gun (which I prefer the revolver) would be used as a last resort self-defense option. In other words, if the pepper spray does not make the attacker harmless, then it is time to go to the gun.

As long as the attacker is kept from doing harm to you whether you use a handgun, knife, pepper spray, stun gun, singshot, tazer, etc. to make the attacker(s) harmless,that's all that matters and that's what self-defense is all about.
 
#15 ·
Oh man, please go get some good training. If you think that pepper spray is going to help you in a confrontation with a ciminal with a gun, you need to stop smoking whatever you're smoking. Pepper spray fails very often, and some people are used to it from prison, or hopped up enough to fight through it. By the time you make that discovery, it will be too close and too fast to get your gun into action. Confrontations take place at little more than arms length and is over in a few seconds. If you don't already have your hand on your gun, your toast, because the other guy will have his weapon already in hand, you just can't see it in the hoodie pocket or behind his leg.
 
#16 ·
If a bad guy has a gun I'm gonna use mine. You pick up a gun, someone takes a bullet. Big Boys Rules. If they are lesser armed or unarmed I'll go for less lethal if I can. If I'm convinced this unarmed bad guy will come back later armed, or I'm convinced he really is creepy scum of the earth and mankind needs him gone, I'll go for lethal.
 
#18 ·
BJJ said it better than i could ever say it. im not that verbose , no point in killing when you have a option. pulling the trigger is easy. its living with the after effects that can be Lifealtering.

If you have no choice, by all means do it. but that's where training, and being able to judge a situation in a split heartbeat comes it.

after the fact, there ain't no going back.
 
#20 ·
I also mostly agree with BJJ's assessment. My rule of thumb is:

If it's the middle of the night, and you've kicked my door in, someone here will permanently cancel your invitation to the royal ball (i.e, NO glass slippers for you). If you come unannounced into my house any other time, I may not punch your clock (I'm trained in threat assessment), but my very large GSD will probably eat you. IF you get past her, the two females in the house will certainly unplug you. They're both scarier than the dog.

If you're an unarmed, 105lb drunk female, you'll be detained and police called. If you're armed, you'll still be eaten, or shot.

#5 on BJJ's list..... Family members and children, of course not. A stranger breaking in? Well, the mentally ill can be ill, or on drugs. Either way, they're even more dangerous that a sober person. Their threat will be stopped, by whatever means necessary.

#1 on BJJ's list..... Not an issue. I'm in Texas. Enter my house uninvited, I'm protected both civilly and judicially.
 
#25 ·
yep...this conversation has to consider the political climate of public opinion, the risks that laws will punish the victim or the good samaritan

and it also needs to consider disparity of force.

for example, i'm 6'1, 230lbs...older but still workout regularly, practice fighting arts, etc...
my choices of using less lethal options instead of drawing my gun first-off, might be quite different than a 115lb pretty lil thing, or a 70yr old, or anyone who might feel outnumbered or seriously outmatched by their attacker(s).


if it were one crazy guy with a machete in a my local restaurant.. I'm more incluned to beat him half to death with a chair, pound his face into the table edge and then hold him in one of a more painful position while we wait for LEO to arrive.

but if 2 linebackers walk up to me at the gas pump and demand my wallet... hopefully I've seen it coming and will have my hand on my gun and still have enough space to work with...if not...then , yeah, they can have my wallet and I'll cry like a lil girl while they beat me bloody.

notice so far i'm using examples that are personal defense outside the home.

if it's someone who's broken into my house...then I am the last line of defense (no retreat) against really bad people and I will strike first with the hardest deadliest force i can.

BTW: all outside the home considerations assume I don't have an option to flee..cause honestly in today's society, with the law and opinion so against gun owners... I'm not planning to put my gun into play to defend others who choose to go unarmed and defenseless in their mindset. I will be running for cover or getting out of the attack area quickly as I can.
My primary responsibility is to get home safe to my loved ones who depend on Dad to be there tomorrow to love and provide for them, not to be a dead hero, or sitting in jail.
but if my family is with me and I must defend them, or the perp is directly attacking me...then yeah, I'll bring whatever i can to the party.. I won't be sitting there screaming while some guy is whacking away at us.
 
#26 ·
Thanks for your comments. Some valid points. I was just asking because I bought my wife a gun the other day and we got talking about the subject of this post. Your comments have given us some different perspectives and some things to consider and talk about.

Thanks

Richard


For God's sake . . . .if you bought a handgun for her, or yourself, then at least obtain the proper training, including the laws regarding the use of deadly force ! ! !
 
#27 ·
Lots of good input provided by others on this thread.

One thing to keep in mind is that being attacked suddenly and not having the time to draw, aim and fire is a distinct possibility. The quick attack from close range scenario leaves you with hand-to-hand as your only option. I know a lot of people who train with guns extensively and completely ignore how to defend themselves unarmed. I think they're leaving a huge gap in their training.

http://www.defensetraining.org/21-foot-rule.html
 
#29 ·
It's called situational awareness and is the best defense against a "quick attack from close range scenario."
 
#28 ·
Though I live in Florida, which has the "Stand Your Ground Law", I am in the process of converting into a Greek Orthodox Christian. And their doctrine with the bible says that when you kill someone even in self defense, you have to feel remorse for their soul. However, at the same time, their doctrine says that you have to defend and protect yourself and the ones you love even by "using the sword". With all this summed up, I have changed my self-defense rules of engagement since I started the conversion process. My rules of engagement now are to less-lethal weapons and tactics to defend myself from attackers, even if they are armed with dangerous, deadly weapons (for example, a knife, a gun [if they're close enough], or a 2 x 4), as much as I can. So my new religious conscious in regards to self-defense convinces me to use less lethal force as much as possible and if I have to go to lethal force, make sure it is really a last resort.
I was going to carry a dive knife for close-range self-defense in addition to a Super Sharpie marker (which I use as a kubotan). But since I started converting to a Greek Orthodox Christian, my self-defense weapon arsenal plan started to change as well as my rules of engagement, so I will be carrying the less lethal Sharpie as my only close-contact weapon. I still plan to own a handgun though. However, I plan to carry a tazer (shooting stun gun) with 4 extra long-range cartridges in addition to the handgun. My rules of engagement in defensive situations from a distance is to use a tazer, even if the attackers are armed with (a) dangerous, deadly weapon(s) and if that does not work, then I'll have to use the handgun.
Though armed citizens and cops don't use less-lethal weapons to stop attackers with (a) deadly weapon(s), less-lethal weapons can actually stop attackers armed with deadly weapons as long as that less-lethal weapon is effective and powerful enough but most pepper sprays and touching stun guns won't be that effective. Ask the police in the UK, stopping an attacker with a knife (or another deadly weapon) by using less-lethal weapons can and has worked:
Don't believe me, a cop in the UK successfully defended himself with a tazer against a machete-wielding attacker:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXiZAfGUujU
 
#35 ·
Why would a person choose to defend himself or herself (self-defense) with non-lethal means?. It would seem to me if I had a need to defend myself against harm, lethal means would be the most effective way.https://
Well looking at it from a professional perspective, force is often necessary to gain compliance or to enforce some aspect of the law. The level of force necessary is proportional to the amount of resistance encountered.

If you are being mildly combative, then control holds, Taser, pepper spray or other less lethal means are appropriate.

Lethal force is only to protect self and others from imminent bodily harm or death, if you cannot justify killing them then lethal force equipment is not justified.

In a purely self defense scenario- it is very similar- you cannot just jump to deadly force from the get go, unless it is apparent that you are about to be killed or seriously injured.

but remember, you are the one that has to answer for and live with your actions. Do what you feel is necessary.

Personally, I would rather put a beating on them with a baton that they will never forget than deal with the aftermath of a deadly force encounter and all the bs that follows it.
 
#44 ·
Even if you're not an Orthodox Christian, borrowing or adopting my rules of engagement will save your butt in court especially in a liberal place. Also I do not want the media to beat me to death and ruin my life, like they did with George Zimmerman or that cop in Ferguson who shot Micheal Brown, if I ever get into an altercation with (an) unarmed black attacker(s).
 
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