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Old 01-20-2017, 03:34 PM
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See if you can find or make an oxygen candle:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_oxygen_generator

Not a long-term solution, but you could probably get one that'll support a couple of people for 24 hours. The Navy uses them on subs for emergencies, and airlines use them to provide emergency oxygen to passengers.
What airline uses candles? Afaik they all use bottled O2. I've never seen one that didn't. You can usually see them as you board, in the overhead luggage bins.

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Old 01-20-2017, 06:30 PM
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Medical grade O2 also requires a prescription.....
Not exactly. Metered medical O2 needs a script, but emergency O2 doesn't.

If you are on daily use oxygen tanks you need a script, but any EMS or safety supply house will sell rescue tanks to the public.

You could order this right now online: https://www.4mdmedical.com/index.php...iew/id/212423/

But you could go broke trying to keep enough around. That link price is typical. 40 minutes of personal oxygen for one person is ~$200.

The bottles state not to refill and getting two 20 minute replacement bottles for the rig costs $140, or about $3.50 a minute.

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What airline uses candles? Afaik they all use bottled O2. I've never seen one that didn't. You can usually see them as you board, in the overhead luggage bins.
Old tech. When Pan Am shut down ages ago we dumpster dived their warehouse as they shut down. Got lots of nice fire extinguishers and first aid kits.

Also got some of those O2 generators. We tried them out. They worked but breathing that stuff was kind of nasty. I suspect they went to bottles to keep a scary situation from being worse. When those masks drop you have to know the fear ramps up real high. Then if you started breathing nasty tasting air you would likely freak out, and I suspect that's the last thing an airline wants you to do at that moment.
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Old 01-20-2017, 07:37 PM
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Depends on the supplier requirements. Here in N. Louisiana, all of the O2 suppliers require a prescription. The EMS Agency in which you are affiliated with is issued a script under the Medical Director, usually by the medical director. All EMS agencies, organized agencies, are required to have a medical director. However, like I said, not all O2 suppliers ask for the script. Never heard of a "rescue tank". No such thing in EMS! It's either medical grade O2 or it isn't and not to be used. They all are metered and regulated at 2000psi. Various sized approved medical grade tanks. You can't get Oxygen for EMS in any other fashion. This isn't scuba gear or SCBA gear which can be filled in house or with a Cascade system with an approved filtration system. The only rescue type tank is a temporary breathing apparatus such as an emergency dive tank which is not medical use approved O2. Any other grade O2 used for medical emergencies would be considered malpractice and entirely past the point of stupid on the users part. Not to be an ass, but I've been in the business for 21 years both in EMS and in Fire Service. Having been the EMS supervisor holding the O2 script, I know for a fact the seriousness of using other than approved grade gases.
 
Old 01-20-2017, 08:03 PM
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Depends on the supplier requirements. Here in N. Louisiana, all of the O2 suppliers require a prescription. The EMS Agency in which you are affiliated with is issued a script under the Medical Director, usually by the medical director. All EMS agencies, organized agencies, are required to have a medical director. However, like I said, not all O2 suppliers ask for the script. Never heard of a "rescue tank". No such thing in EMS! It's either medical grade O2 or it isn't and not to be used. They all are metered and regulated at 2000psi. Various sized approved medical grade tanks. You can't get Oxygen for EMS in any other fashion. This isn't scuba gear or SCBA gear which can be filled in house or with a Cascade system with an approved filtration system. The only rescue type tank is a temporary breathing apparatus such as an emergency dive tank which is not medical use approved O2. Any other grade O2 used for medical emergencies would be considered malpractice and entirely past the point of stupid on the users part. Not to be an ass, but I've been in the business for 21 years both in EMS and in Fire Service. Having been the EMS supervisor holding the O2 script, I know for a fact the seriousness of using other than approved grade gases.
I worked building and maintaining factories in dozens of states in years past. Any safety supply house would drop you off an emergency air kit. Gloves, fire extinguishers, hard hats, respirators, smoke test kits, whatever, and that included emergency air kits.

Be an ass if you want, because the proof is in the link above. The supply houses sell the emergency air kits to factories and consumers alike. They mount them on the walls like fire extinguishers and AED's. It's not SCBA at all. It's 1st aid gear.



No script needed. At most a purchase order if they are purely B2B, but many still sell to the public.

Hell, you can buy them on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Lif-Gen-Dispo.../dp/B00EPQXFVG

If you can buy emergency oxygen off Amazon and get it shipped to your home with nothing more than your credit card then you can talk all the rules and regs you want and it means nothing.
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Old 01-20-2017, 08:36 PM
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I see the key is 6 lpm. That's not considered life saving O2 supply. That will do for minor breathing difficulties where a nasal canula or blow by O2 would suffice depending on the grade. It's not enough flow for a NRB or a BVM. I see nothing about the grade of O2 either nor a spec sheet which is highly questionable and the price is absolutely ridiculous. This kit is for what it says. Good samaritan use, not life saving use. Great for getting a walking talking individual to safe to breathe air, but not for EMS useage and not legal for EMS useage. Two totally different worlds. If we approached an individual with this supply on, we'd thank you for your worthy efforts and apply the correct O2 at the correct flow with the correct device. Don't be offended. We roll patients into the ER all of the time and our IV's and airways are removed for "hospital approved" devices. It's just an understood thing. I can get allot supplies off of the net and approved for certain useage and lose my license in less time than it takes for the product to be delivered to me. We had this discussion in an old post about people buying AED's for post SHTF scenarios. The question was WHY? No hospital, no definitive care, no followup or maintenance availability. Take it from someone who works 108 hours a week on an ambulance, read the fine print and know where your good samaritan begins and ends. Every states Good Samaritan laws are different. Even as a Nationally Certified EMT, my license is not recognized in every state and my scope of practice varies from state to state. Maybe, now or some time ago, your state allows for this devices use. As an EMT, this O2 tank is not legal for an EMS Professional to use for anything more than a SHTF moment until proper equipment is on site and even then, if the pt died or sued, I'd better damn well know every spec of that piece of equipment and know for a fact that it was in fact medical grade oxygen. Show me the specs!
Just saying.

Edit..........Let me add this fact that some may not know. Medical grade O2 is kept under lock and key at all of our local suppliers per Homeland Security. When we go to the Welding supply to get fresh tanks, they are locked up inside of a cage. Each cylinder has a tracking number and the O2 has a lot number. Each number is scanned and logged into a computer system and we have to sign for the tank(s). We are allowed to keep extra cylinders, portables and mains, at each station but they are supposed to be secured. The reason behind medical grade O2 security is due to terror threats. Let's say a shipment was tampered with and poisonous gas was filled into the cylinder. Imagine the outcome of an MCI. I don't think that Louisiana is the only state with these controls on Medical Grade O2. So again, that leads me to question the grade of O2 in these mail order kits. It just doesn't fit the current state of the country.
Old 01-20-2017, 09:39 PM
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I see the key is 6 lpm. That's not considered life saving O2 supply. That will do for minor breathing difficulties where a nasal canula or blow by O2 would suffice depending on the grade. It's not enough flow for a NRB or a BVM. I see nothing about the grade of O2 either nor a spec sheet which is highly questionable and the price is absolutely ridiculous. This kit is for what it says. Good samaritan use, not life saving use. Great for getting a walking talking individual to safe to breathe air, but not for EMS useage and not legal for EMS useage. Two totally different worlds. If we approached an individual with this supply on, we'd thank you for your worthy efforts and apply the correct O2 at the correct flow with the correct device. Don't be offended. We roll patients into the ER all of the time and our IV's and airways are removed for "hospital approved" devices. It's just an understood thing. I can get allot supplies off of the net and approved for certain useage and lose my license in less time than it takes for the product to be delivered to me. We had this discussion in an old post about people buying AED's for post SHTF scenarios. The question was WHY? No hospital, no definitive care, no followup or maintenance availability. Take it from someone who works 108 hours a week on an ambulance, read the fine print and know where your good samaritan begins and ends. Every states Good Samaritan laws are different. Even as a Nationally Certified EMT, my license is not recognized in every state and my scope of practice varies from state to state. Maybe, now or some time ago, your state allows for this devices use. As an EMT, this O2 tank is not legal for an EMS Professional to use for anything more than a SHTF moment until proper equipment is on site and even then, if the pt died or sued, I'd better damn well know every spec of that piece of equipment and know for a fact that it was in fact medical grade oxygen. Show me the specs!
Just saying.
That's a lot of tap dancing there. I've worked in hospitals for 30yrs in the pharmacies and I've been formally trained in all aspects of what needs a script and what doesn't. I also seen plenty of medical personnel try to justify something with reams of specialty data to confuse the fact they got called out.

Try reading my first post again.

"Metered medical O2 needs a script, but emergency O2 doesn't."

The word "emergency" doesn't automatically make it the domain of EMT's. And the product is sold OTC as "emergency air".

What I said was factually true in all respects. The product is in use in thousands of public buildings.

Anything else you want to add in order to then deconstruct it, is called the strawman logic fallacy because I didn't say it.
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Old 01-20-2017, 10:21 PM
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Not tap dancing. Trying to get the point across to educate yourself. What profession were you in? Maintenance or as a Healthcare Provider? Are you currently licensed as a Healthcare Provider? Do you know the risks? Have you read the FDA guidelines for Medical Grade O2? The script is up to the states interpretation of the Federal Rules. I did read further into that. Medical Grade O2 is an FDA Controlled drug. I won't argue with you on the subject. Can you get medical grade O2 without a script? Yes! Legally? Depends on the state, physician, etc. Emergency Air? If you want to call that Medical Grade O2, Go for it. Would I use it for anything more than SHTF? ABSOLUTELY NOT! The link that you provided in the first response is not even in a color coded cylinder which makes it an unknown gas and in most cases, goes against OSHA regulation! Green Color Coded Cylinders are Medical Grade Gas. Do your homework and Google Medical Oxygen Regulation and explore the FDA rules from Manufacture to Fill to labeling to Distribution to Licensing on Manufacturers, Dealers and End Users and EMS. Our experience has little merit in current regulation. Current Regulation is what is most important. That's why we have to have Refreshers and Continuing Education every two years. Even then, we learn allot from those who just graduated school and educate us on current standards and changes. Good night.
Old 01-20-2017, 11:03 PM
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Not tap dancing. Trying to get the point across to educate yourself. What profession were you in? Maintenance or as a Healthcare Provider? Are you currently licensed as a Healthcare Provider? Do you know the risks? Have you read the FDA guidelines for Medical Grade O2? The script is up to the states interpretation of the Federal Rules. I did read further into that. Medical Grade O2 is an FDA Controlled drug. I won't argue with you on the subject. Can you get medical grade O2 without a script? Yes! Legally? Depends on the state, physician, etc. Emergency Air? If you want to call that Medical Grade O2, Go for it. Would I use it for anything more than SHTF? ABSOLUTELY NOT! The link that you provided in the first response is not even in a color coded cylinder which makes it an unknown gas! Green Color Coded Cylinders are Medical Grade Gas. Good night.
I hold state current certifications in Pharm Tech Supervisor, IV Sterile Practices, and Parenteral Nutrition. I'm the guy who can keep you fed for years without you ever using your mouth. I also mix chemotherapy infusions. I also hold a state PE license in Industrial Engineering.

Yes, I have two full time careers going at the same time and have been doing both since the 80's. I have hundreds of ER staff hours.

My name suffixes are: AA, AS, BS, PE, CPhT, PhTR.

You want green oxy cylinders to feel better?

It is the same one I posted in the picture above for use in public buildings next to the bandaid box.

http://www.theoxygensuppliesshop.com...-Kit_p_82.html

The Lif-O-Gen Automated Wall Mount Emergency Oxygen Kit with Refillable Cylinder is a medical device designed to deliver oxygen in emergency situations. In addition this emergency oxygen supply is both refillable and reusable. This oxygen delivery kit is suitable for use in most emergency situations.

Features

Lif-O-Gen Automated Wall Mount Emergency Oxygen Kit:
Automated
Refillable
Easy to use
Easy to shut off
Emergency oxygen delivery
Medical grade oxygen
6 lpm oxygen USP delivery
Up to 45 minutes of delivery time


Break out your credit card now and these guys will ship you USP grade pure medical oxygen in a pretty green cylinder right to your door.

Don't try to BS me again about what is script. I can potentially see literally hundreds of scripts on a single hospital shift. Understanding scripts to the nth detail is a function of my profession. I am a gatekeeper to ensure scripts and medical orders are legit when issued.
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Old 01-21-2017, 12:24 AM
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What airline uses candles? Afaik they all use bottled O2. I've never seen one that didn't. You can usually see them as you board, in the overhead luggage bins.

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If O2 cylinders are used for the cabin emergency O2, the LARGE cylinders are located in the cargo hold, not the overheard bins. That little O2 tank you see in the cargo bin is for medical emergency for a single passenger.

The other system is the chemical O2 generator that others have mentioned.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_oxygen_system
Old 01-21-2017, 12:40 AM
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Just chiming in to say that Zeke is right (as usual), in that you don't need a prescription to buy USP medical grade O2.

While the FDA has stringent rules to qualify an O2 supplier, and to ensure product quality during production and chain of custody to the point of purchase, that is where the laws end and you buy the O2.

In the old days, one of the Freons were added in small quantities to the O2 reboiler of cryogenic plants to prevent a hydrocarbon concentration mechanism called dead end boiling from potentially occurring. Without this additive, O2 reboilers could reach LEL hydrocarbon levels if heat exchangers were partially clogged up with CO2 or debris. Occasionally one of these distillation columns would mimic a Saturn V rocket in an unplanned energy release.

Since it is better to not have sick people breathe Freon with their O2, they would withdraw the liquid O2 from a couple trays above the reboiler, where there was no appreciable quantity of Freon (or hydrocarbons). LOX thus produced was labelled as USP breathing O2. The LOX would then be gasified and pressurized to fill gas cylinders, or delivered as LOX bulk delivery to hospitals which would be equipped with LOX storage tanks with vaporizers to supply the O2 piping network in the facility. For a large facility, the LOX system would be much much cheaper per patient.

Welding gas O2 is not USP certified, because it can legally contain some of that Freon as it doesn't affect welding applications.

The use of Freon in O2 production has mostly been discontinued as improvements to the design of Oxygen plants has been implemented.
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Old 01-21-2017, 02:15 AM
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I stick to my guns that these mail order supplies are not safe.
It's not the "mail order" places that make this stuff. Most of these O2 kits are made by the same folks that sell script metered O2 equipment and hospital portable patient gear. These "mail order" places are just distribution companies. It's like trying to say that the local EMS supply shop has anything to do with making swabs or gauze.

Are you trusting a distributor to give you good equipment? As long as they put the packing box on the shelf without throwing it across the room first then that's about all you can expect them to do.

Safety and 1st Aid gear is sold by literally thousands of companies and most of them do nothing more than slap it on a shelf and sell it to end users for a convenience markup. Emergency O2 is first aid gear. They hang units in many public and industrial buildings for staff emergency use. The stuff can sit there on the wall for a decade and work perfectly after blowing an inch of dust off it. It's first responder gear and the majority of first responders are simply workers with a jumped up Red Cross class the factories and refineries called HAZWOPER that teaches them about hazmat situations, PPE, containment, cleanup, and advanced 1st Aid practices.

They have this kind of training done for literally thousands of employees all across the Gulf Coast.

It was only a couple years ago that my annual renewal was done in the refineries in Westlake PPG, which a town that shares their city border with Lake Charles, La. It's clear to me that in Louisiana you can use emergency USP grade O2 and you don't have to be an EMT.
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Old 01-21-2017, 02:25 AM
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It's not the "mail order" places that make this stuff. Most of these O2 kits are made by the same folks that sell script metered O2 equipment and hospital portable patient gear. These "mail order" places are just distribution companies. It's like trying to say that the local EMS supply shop has anything to do with making swabs or gauze.

Are you trusting a distributor to give you good equipment? As long as they put the packing box on the shelf without throwing it across the room first then that's about all you can expect them to do.

Safety and 1st Aid gear is sold by literally thousands of companies and most of them do nothing more than slap it on a shelf and sell it to end users for a convenience markup. Emergency O2 is first aid gear. They hang units in many public and industrial buildings for staff emergency use. The stuff can sit there on the wall for a decade and work perfectly after blowing an inch of dust off it. It's first responder gear and the majority of first responders are simply workers with a jumped up Red Cross class the factories and refineries called HAZWOPER that teaches them about hazmat situations, PPE, containment, cleanup, and advanced 1st Aid practices.

They have this kind of training done for literally thousands of employees all across the Gulf Coast.

It was only a couple years ago that my annual renewal was done in the refineries in Westlake PPG, which a town that shares their city border with Lake Charles, La. It's clear to me that in Louisiana you can use emergency USP grade O2 and you don't have to be an EMT.
So what about documentation? You trust Amazon for medical grade O2? They dont post anything to support their product, nor did the other company you posted. I just dont trust that.
Old 01-21-2017, 02:29 AM
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I haven't worked in an industrial setting since I was a kid. For give me for not recognizing a brand. Everything Iv known for 21 years is on an ambulance or a fire truck other than the casino business where we had EMT's per state law. None of these mounted units.
Old 01-21-2017, 03:34 AM
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So what about documentation? You trust Amazon for medical grade O2? They dont post anything to support their product, nor did the other company you posted. I just dont trust that.
Distributors sell a multitude of products from many different brands. At most they keep necessary documentation like they keep MSDS's, in a 3 ring binder in the office gathering dust to comply with federal regs.

Everything want in documentation from them is satisfied by just in time demand. You call the distributor and they turn around and contact the manufacturer for you. Then they fax or email it to you. So why bother with the middleman? Just contact the manufacturer direct and they will get it to you or point to where they host a copy on their website.

It's like asking the Kroger store for safety info or MSDS on that Rhino propane tank you want to swap out. Maybe Kroger can get that for you if you press them or they are feeling like doing you a solid. But the best move is just to contact Rhino direct. Same thing you would do if you had questions about a can of Del Monte tomatoes. Why ask Kroger? Ask Del Monte. Distributors are there to buy in bulk and move it closer to you for a fee. They aren't a technical support team.

All I would need Amazon to do is get it delivered to me safely. Anything else I would go straight to the manufacturer.

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I haven't worked in an industrial setting since I was a kid. For give me for not recognizing a brand. Everything Iv known for 21 years is on an ambulance or a fire truck other than the casino business where we had EMT's per state law. None of these mounted units.
You are dealing with "profession rules".

I am a perfect example of this. I have been in hospitals for years. I deal with young doctors, nurses, and medical students all the time. It happens constantly that I end up knowing more about a drug and its usage than many that I deal with. After decades of this it's to be expected that I'm more familiar with a drug than some 2nd year resident getting his feet wet.

But the law specifically says I cannot dispense medication advice to patients. I can yell at and school a doctor, pharmacist, nurse, or administrator all I want about drugs. But by law I can't tell a patient in the hospital what to do with the aspirin he's given when he leaves. The janitor could but I can't. Go into a drug store sometime and grab a box of sinus pills and walk up to the pharmacy counter for advice. Watch how it is the pharmacist who comes over to advise on something as simple as cold medicine. At best the tech is allowed to say that you should follow the directions on the box. If you ask what it might do to your blood pressure, again the pharmacist comes over. But the old lady in line behind you is free to tell you what to do with it.

You are dealing with an internal occupation rule set. They apply strictly to your state approved certification or license.

I understand that you think you know the laws for something. But you only know the laws as they apply to you in your profession. What you did above would be the same as me saying that you can't tell your buddy to take an Advil every three hours for a headache, because only licensed practitioners can do that. I'm right in saying that, but I'm only right when it concerns people with my certification. The rest of the world isn't under those special rules.
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Old 01-31-2017, 11:52 PM
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What airline uses candles? Afaik they all use bottled O2. I've never seen one that didn't. You can usually see them as you board, in the overhead luggage bins.

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Every pressurized passanger air carrier plane I've been on. The small green tanks are medical oxygen and can be administered via a cannula, mask, or ambubag. The "chemical oxygen" is for emergency use if the cabin is depressurized. If you've ever been to an aircrew survival training, and you see the masks deploy for real (as opposed to the simplified videos.), there is a plastic clip and string, pulling on the mask, pulls the string (via the clip), which ignites the oxygen generator.

Delta for example, says pull of the mask and extend the tubing to start the low of oxygen. This causes the string to pull tight igniting the generator.

I have been on cargo flights where we had bottled oxygen, either stationary, or one time, strapped to our lower leg. It was a UPS 747 aircraft we were running some airborne electronics tests using equipment mounted on pallets in the cargo hold. If you are back there, and the plane intends to fly over a certain altitude, you have to have the oxygen- having it on your leg was so it could stay in place as you were seated for takeoff and landing.
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