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Old 06-18-2017, 05:59 AM
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This has happened before. The india-Pakistan partition. The vast majority of the Muslims moved from India to Pakistan while those Hindus living in the area to be designated Pakistan moved their families to India. That is how they avoided a massive bloody civil war. And the two countries dont like each other still, but nobody is shooting
I have the idea that so many people relocated because there was a bloody civil war.
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Old 06-18-2017, 06:46 AM
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I think the Republicans should end the filibuster. Legislation should be passed to give all Americans concealed carry, along with the rest of the second amendment in all states, provided they are not convicted felons, and can pass a basic firearms safety course that won't cost more than $50.

When I retire, I would like to show my wife California and Travel down highway 1 in California.But when I am old I would like to see America while conceal carrying. I love my country, and thanks to Donald Trump, am not ready to give up on her. I have just as much right to enjoy California as any Libtard, more than most because I have paid a lot of Taxes and served time in the Military. I will never give up on America
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Old 06-18-2017, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by The Old Coach View Post
I have the idea that so many people relocated because there was a bloody civil war.
If I remember my documentaries correct, the Indian civil war had a few skirmishes, But the Muslims had been pushing for a separate Pakistan from the beginning of the decline of British rule. The fighting between Muslim and Hindu was accelerating but the agreement to partition Pakistan was essentially what prevented a full scale war and chaos.

But then again it has been years since I saw that documentary so I could be remembering wrong. But it was definitely the solution to the two opposing cultures.

Look at the Kurd situation. These people have wanted their autonomy since WWI and the fall of the Ottoman Empire. the great European power decided against it and there has been trouble ever since.

I just believe it is never a good idea to try to force opposing cultures into one central government. Someone always gets the short end of the stick and is resentful.
 
Old 06-18-2017, 09:30 AM
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Tell ya what, sure doesnt look good for the Blue team.



Cant imagine their city states would last long after their power was shut off.
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Old 06-19-2017, 07:10 AM
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I thought about posting this as a separate thread, because this is by far the most significant and mainstream voice to have said something like this in my living memory, but I'll put it here for now since it's the same topic:

Erick Erickson: Let's Consider Secession
Quote:
Evil preaches tolerance until it is dominant and then it seeks to silence good. Evil is now dominant — but the partisan line is blurred.

The only escape is dissolution. We should part ways if we cannot have federalism. We should start talking about secession. If both sides have decided that every hill is a hill to die on and control of Washington means reward for their friends and punishment of their enemies, we need to end Washington. The way to do that is end the union.

I am no longer an optimist about the future of this country. This past week has shown there is no incentive for the better angels of ourselves to rise. Both sides are out for blood. The only way to calm the situation is for us to part ways.
Link: http://theresurgent.com/lets-consider-secession/
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Old 06-19-2017, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jknova View Post
I thought about posting this as a separate thread, because this is by far the most significant and mainstream voice to have said something like this in my living memory, but I'll put it here for now since it's the same topic:

Erick Erickson: Let's Consider Secession

Link: http://theresurgent.com/lets-consider-secession/
Thank you for posting, excellent article.
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Old 06-19-2017, 11:03 AM
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Suburban and rural areas have the highest percentages of property ownership. When you own property, you have a respect for keeping it maintained, protected, as a long-term investment, the schools and parks (if you have kids), the local boards, etc. You're much more connected to the community, and maybe actively contributing or volunteering in some way.

Whereas in alot of big American cities, upwards of 50% of the populace are renters. Too poor to afford housing, and no real market for truly affordable housing in many areas. No downward price pressure on real estate. So large segments there are more mobile, not long-term invested in their community, and probably angry.

It's very clear to me that the corporate media has divided-and-conquered many ordinary Americans by this left-right cancer way of thinking. All subjugated people need to be pitted against one another to weaken both sides. It's absolutely essential, so they don't join forces, critical mass, and go after the globalists, king, Caesar, etc.

I live in a blue state, but I'd be fine with a Rexit. Most of my federal taxes leave Minnesota, and help out poorer red states in southeast or southwest. We have no/few large M.I.C. industries here either. Our standard of living, education, employment, health and life expectancy are all higher than the national average. Our economy is diverse.

However, I remain convinced that the left-right cancer that's taken hold on alot of people's minds is no accident. Divide-and-conquer. Sell weapons, divisive media, etc. to both sides. The corporate media and shock jocks are most responsible for it. They're teetering on the edge of normal dividing-and-conquering vs. causing something to snap, and losing control of their own narrative. Enough people are stupid to play along with it, maybe 90%+, but eventually it'll be game over.

Their worst fear isn't Rexit or left-right, or even civil disorder -- but it's that people might actually come together and oust the globalists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revmgt View Post
I mostly agree with what you said, but I think the cities are more liberal because there are more "points of contact" for indoctrination in the cities than the rural areas.
Also the city living requires a lot different level of cooperation for things to go smoothly, cooperation requires compromise, so living in the city requires a person to turn down some of their behavior and amplify other parts of their behavior. That usually happens in a subtle, self-policing kind of way, and makes people more of what a society would consider a "good citizen".
Good is subjective, and good is determined by the people who set the standards, and they're usually the ones in control, so that usually means a good citizen is someone who keeps their head down and is easy to control.
It's conformity, and the Chinese used to say "the nail that stands up gets hammered down", meaning it's better to be a nobody.

I don't think good citizens are the answer, I think law-abiding citizens are the answer. I live in an unincorporated part of town, people can do what they want within reason.
It seems the people here keep their property better than people in the town proper even though the town has ordinances we aren't required to follow. There is also a very low crime rate where I live, not so in town, so it seems the idea of personal responsibility doesn't stop with home maintenance. Decent people figure out how to live without ordinances and regulations choking them to death.

I'll add this, I think city living is unnatural for humans. I think the lack of space creates problems and laws and limits have to be imposed to counter the negative behavior that is created by people living in those unnatural conditions. Those limits don't eliminate the problems with that situation, they only push the symptoms of those problems down for a while, until they explode out of people. That's why, to me, there are no riots in the suburban or rural areas.
Old 06-19-2017, 11:27 AM
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In any case, what's the point of a Rexit? The Republicrats now run all branches of federal government. You can't run from your own shortcomings. It will be increasingly clear that left-right is a pox on both houses, almost completely irrelevant compared to powerful vs. powerless, rich vs. poor, global vs. local.
Old 06-19-2017, 11:48 AM
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We have repeated every single mistake of the Roman Empire, and will suffer the same fate, it is inevitable that there will be a rise in region states because of the size of the country and the fact that centralized governance is not possible due to deep seated differences in political interests and societal goals.

Balkanization of North America is going to happen, the only question is will it be peaceful or bloody.
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Old 06-19-2017, 12:02 PM
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Anyone who thinks the South should secede needs to look into the League of the South group. Almost 10,000 members and it seems to be a decent group.
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Old 06-19-2017, 12:11 PM
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Other side is though that a lot of urban areas are centers of wealth and commerce (and greed). The greed causes problems, but the wealth and commerce also give the US influence and power. The trade itself ties us to other nations - which isn't always good - but it does create a shared interest and promote stability. Kansas without NYC isn't as powerful. NYC has perfectly useable ports, and could import a lot of what it needs. We also pay 20 billion or so dollars a year out in farm subsidies - and I bet people in NYC and LA don't feel like they get their money's worth out of that.

I'm not saying rural America is wrong to be angry about some things, or that it's wrong to stand your ground and assert your rights. But there are two sides to every discussion, and you might find your Rexit less fun than you thought it would be.
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Old 06-19-2017, 12:22 PM
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Anyone who thinks the South should secede needs to look into the League of the South group. Almost 10,000 members and it seems to be a decent group.
Thanks -

However, I don't want the South to secede, I want the union to dissolve, with states free to form new associations. Perhaps same effect, but different method.

It is clear to me that Washington has its own desires, priorities and even personality, like a living thing - no matter who we elect, Washington will always strive for more concentrated power and wealth.

At some point the country won't be able to support the imperial capital and the country will collapse in one way or another, with some other society stepping forward to fill the void.

I would say it's happened before (Rome is just one example) but the truth is, it's never NOT happened. Look at any society in history and unless they were simply steamrolled militarily by a larger country, this has been their ultimate fate. It is guaranteed to happen here if we remain on our present course.

Right now might be a window in time in which a movement to dissolve the union could pick up steam, because most conservatives know that even winning elections will barely hold the demon at bay for a few years - and at the moment, liberals are upset that there are some (temporary) limits on their ability to control everyone else's lives.

It might be a rare opportunity to get both conservatives and liberals to agree that this isn't working -

Conservative states can form a new nation with renewed focus on individual liberty and limited government. Liberal states can try to create their Marxist paradises and see how that goes.

I want to emphasize that civil war is the last thing I want. I would like this to happen through peaceful agreement and I would like for the newly formed nations to be allies - simply with more freedom to choose their way forward.
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Old 06-19-2017, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goon View Post
the wealth and commerce also give the US influence and power.
Who cares? There is literally nothing I want from another other nation, other than peace, and fair trade. And I would settle for just peace.

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Originally Posted by goon View Post
Kansas without NYC isn't as powerful.
Who cares about "power" in this sense? I care about the power to live my life how I want. Not whether Kansas feels "powerful" on the world stage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goon View Post
We also pay 20 billion or so dollars a year out in farm subsidies - and I bet people in NYC and LA don't feel like they get their money's worth out of that.
While I agree those subsidies should be eliminated (along with most taxes ... tax + subsidy or tax + loophole is a way to control behavior) - I am pretty sure that people in NYC and LA eat food.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goon View Post
I'm not saying rural America is wrong to be angry about some things, or that it's wrong to stand your ground and assert your rights. But there are two sides to every discussion, and you might find your Rexit less fun than you thought it would be.
It's not about anger. Well, anger is related to it. But it's about following very different ideals about how society should be organized.

Blue states worship communism, hate morality and personal responsibility, and want everyone to be forced to live according to what their teacher told them last week or a lesson they learned from a sitcom or MSNBC.

Red states generally support the Constitution.

Why not let blue states descend into a communist hell of their choosing, and let red states follow the constitution (or similar, heavily related new constitution)?
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Old 06-19-2017, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jknova View Post
Thanks -

However, I don't want the South to secede, I want the union to dissolve, with states free to form new associations. Perhaps same effect, but different method.

It is clear to me that Washington has its own desires, priorities and even personality, like a living thing - no matter who we elect, Washington will always strive for more concentrated power and wealth.

At some point the country won't be able to support the imperial capital and the country will collapse in one way or another, with some other society stepping forward to fill the void.

I would say it's happened before (Rome is just one example) but the truth is, it's never NOT happened. Look at any society in history and unless they were simply steamrolled militarily by a larger country, this has been their ultimate fate. It is guaranteed to happen here if we remain on our present course.

Right now might be a window in time in which a movement to dissolve the union could pick up steam, because most conservatives know that even winning elections will barely hold the demon at bay for a few years - and at the moment, liberals are upset that there are some (temporary) limits on their ability to control everyone else's lives.

It might be a rare opportunity to get both conservatives and liberals to agree that this isn't working -

Conservative states can form a new nation with renewed focus on individual liberty and limited government. Liberal states can try to create their Marxist paradises and see how that goes.

I want to emphasize that civil war is the last thing I want. I would like this to happen through peaceful agreement and I would like for the newly formed nations to be allies - simply with more freedom to choose their way forward.
I can agree with that. The LotS is a very, very pro-state rights group, though. They really encourage people to fly their state flag even more than any Confederate flag even.

I believe that any dissolution of the union will be peaceful in MOST areas, but not all. Take my town for example. I don't think any violence would happen in my town. But three hours away in NOLA? Heck, they have violence on any regular Tuesday.
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Old 06-19-2017, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goon View Post
Other side is though that a lot of urban areas are centers of wealth and commerce (and greed). The greed causes problems, but the wealth and commerce also give the US influence and power. The trade itself ties us to other nations - which isn't always good - but it does create a shared interest and promote stability. Kansas without NYC isn't as powerful. NYC has perfectly useable ports, and could import a lot of what it needs. We also pay 20 billion or so dollars a year out in farm subsidies - and I bet people in NYC and LA don't feel like they get their money's worth out of that.

I'm not saying rural America is wrong to be angry about some things, or that it's wrong to stand your ground and assert your rights. But there are two sides to every discussion, and you might find your Rexit less fun than you thought it would be.
Kansas can always use Corpus Christi, Freeport, Houston, Port Arthur, New Orleans, Mobile, etc. if they need ports and we have the rail lines to move that Kansas corn to the Gulf ports. As long as Texas and the other Gulf states leave together, NY and the west coast can be left to concentrate on shipping Hollywood CDs and maybe Pennsylvania coal
Old 06-19-2017, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by aramchek View Post
In any case, what's the point of a Rexit? The Republicrats now run all branches of federal government. .
The Republicans run the courts? Not... The bureaucracy? Not, Education? Not.

Good luck in your blue State of mind.

Old 06-19-2017, 01:53 PM
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I say, why does it have to be a Rexit? Why should we leave? Make it a Bluexit instead ��

I kid. I totally agree with the dissolution idea. The federal government is like Agent Smith: it has grown beyond our control, and we cannot stop it. It's bound to collapse anyway, better for it to be peaceful and on our own terms.
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Old 06-19-2017, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by jknova View Post
Who cares? There is literally nothing I want from another other nation, other than peace, and fair trade. And I would settle for just peace.



Who cares about "power" in this sense? I care about the power to live my life how I want. Not whether Kansas feels "powerful" on the world stage.



While I agree those subsidies should be eliminated (along with most taxes ... tax + subsidy or tax + loophole is a way to control behavior) - I am pretty sure that people in NYC and LA eat food.



It's not about anger. Well, anger is related to it. But it's about following very different ideals about how society should be organized.

Blue states worship communism, hate morality and personal responsibility, and want everyone to be forced to live according to what their teacher told them last week or a lesson they learned from a sitcom or MSNBC.

Red states generally support the Constitution.

Why not let blue states descend into a communist hell of their choosing, and let red states follow the constitution (or similar, heavily related new constitution)?
The agricultural regions of the US might be too productive for their own good. They're likely able to produce to the point where their crops are worth less than what it costs farmers to raise them. It might be cheaper for NYC City State to buy grain from someone other than Kansas. Even on the world market, I'm not sure their goods would be competitive in price. Interesting to think about - if you have sources on either side of that debate, let me know - I'd actually like to read wha smart people think about that. But if rural fly-over country did break away, a lot of farmers might need to find alternate work. But I guess that's their problem. I don't own a farm in Kansas, so...

On power - I used to have a more isolationist point of view, and a little of that isn't a bad thing. But the truth is that someone is going to be more powerful and someone is going to be less. I'd be fine with scaling back commitments and engaging in less nation building (except in our own nation), but if someone has to be the powerful on the globe, I'd prefer it be us. It sucks, but it still might be the best case scenario.

Overall, I think a dissolution of the Union might be a case of "be careful what you wish for." We might get to find out some day whether I like it or not though...
Old 06-19-2017, 02:59 PM
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Red and Blue separate? That'll work..

The Red State negotiators will capitulate to every Blue State demand.

On Separation Day, the Blues will dump everyone one of their sick, old and unwanted on the Red side of the border.

The Blues will drive illegals and refugees over to the Red states and dump them.

The Blues will tax businesses and services to the moon and Red state customers will get the higher bills for goods and services.

The Blues will seize private property and privately held intellectual property making similar property in Red states worthless.

The Blues will seize companies, stock portfolios, insurance companies, 401Ks, annuities, etc making Red state financial holdings also worthless.

The Blues will close off military bases in Blue States leaving Red States without key deterrents like submarines, air bases and standing army and Marine units.

The Blues will open their borders and swell their ranks with millions of young, angry third world people who will be happy to harass, attack and invade the Red states all for the promise of pillage, loot and rape.

The Blues will have no problem getting the rest of the like minded world to isolate the Red states leading to shortages and suffering.

The Blues will shut off gas lines, ports, communications, websites, logistics and anything else they think might benefit the Reds even if it means inconvenience or suffering for Blue residents.

The Blues will gladly mete out starvation, deprivation, rationing, brown outs, blackouts and deny healthcare to their own population (except for the elite classes) and blame the Reds - And Blue citizens will accept it without question and demand more sacrifices to the point of death.

The Reds meanwhile, will run around in tricorner hats and slap each other on the back.

Then they'll go home and complain that their Social Security checks haven't been delivered and Medicare isn't working.

They'll demand one law after another to fix the broken government.

They'll create cockamamie fussy replacement programs for taxes, welfare, food aid and healthcare that will cost billions more to maintain.

They'll make short term emotionally driven decisions completely counter to the Separation's original desired outcome.

They'll come up with endless requirement conditions for voting ("Must be a property owner, must have served in the military but being a first responder is okay but if you're handicapped but can prove you paid SOME sort of taxes you can vote but only if you're a blue collar middle class American Patriot, etc.")

They'll wave around worthless dollars and retirement accounts and demand someone do something because they PAID for all their worthless assets.

They'll demand cheap goods in Walmart, 40 hour make work jobs in factories for 6th grade drop outs, unlimited fatty food and mindless entertainment on TeeVee like there "used to be".

They'll sit in their houses and cheer for the Red State but sheepishly admit they're too fat, old and sick to get up and defend the nation or make any hard pragmatic sacrifices like the Blues are willing to do.

Sorry, I'm way to cynical to think separation will be fireworks and free beer.
Old 06-20-2017, 01:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_Rafe View Post
Do you really have the smallest inkling of a doubt that, if the US would start breaking up, Russia would make moves to expand and control? It's the standard US playbook. You want a presence somewhere: destabilize, divide, foster conflict, and when real conflict starts you'll have sponsored several groups or factions, and try to get those in "control". For something like that to happen to the US, it would have to be on a giant scale, but even without someone actively working towards it, the end result would be the same.
If it hasn't already been pointed out... Russia/USSR has been using 'that playbook' against us for decades now. Just as we (the U.S.) were doing to them in the 70's, 80's and 90's. Fortunately, we just did it a little bit better. The problem is, we stopped after the Soviet breakup... But they haven't (see U.S. election).

I am convinced that starting back in the early 50's, the Soviets infiltrated our higher education systems (Universities and school boards) along with State, county and local governments, in an effort to take our Republic down from the inside. That's basically what we did to them with commerce.
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