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any downside to shooting plants? txprep Firearms General Discussion 22 04-25-2017 07:17 PM

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Old Today, 03:47 AM
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Originally Posted by panoz77 View Post
"THUG"

Never in your life or in leadcounsel's life have you referred to a white criminal as a "THUG".

Thanks for playing.
You have zero capability of knowing that.

Now you are a liar by acting as if you could know.

Unqualified, false statements, such as yours, are lies.
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Old Today, 04:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Runamok View Post
He still needed to give Yanez his ID. MN licenses aren't big and white. He gave Yanez his registration only.
How do we know this as fact? Was it testified to under oath?

How do we know the ID wasn't concealed by the registration? Unless Yanez admitted he only had the registration, or if the ID was still in Castile's pocket, we wouldn't know that as fact.


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Originally Posted by Runamok View Post
When he did, he informed Yanez that he had a gun and started reaching for his ID (located close to his firearm according to Reynolds). At that point he was told to stop reaching for "it" (presumably the firearm) and he said "I'm not" (indicating he was reaching for his ID). He was then shot.
If it was a miscommunication, then it's an absolute tragedy. If it's not a miscommunication and Castile was reaching for a gun, then get received the consequences of his actions.

Something to consider, is why didn't Castile stop upon request?

My experience (thousands) on traffic stops is that when people don't listen to comply to my requests or demands, they are up to no good. It only cements my belief when I repeatedly tell them and they continue. That's when it gets physical.


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Originally Posted by Runamok View Post
How many shootings of an officer have you seen where the perp says "Sir, I do have to tell you, I do have a firearm on me" and then proceeds to pull it out and attempt to shoot the officer? THEY DON'T.
Where is the data you used to come to that definitive conclusion?

I've been told by lawfully and unlawfully armed people that they are armed.

Thank God no one reached for their pocket after such statements. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen in the thousands up thousands of traffic stops every day!


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Originally Posted by Runamok View Post
The attack is launched from ambush so that they have the element of surprise.
You are presuming that all criminals act in a rational and tactical manner. That's often not the case.

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Originally Posted by Runamok View Post
THAT is why I don't think Yanez should have shot when he did. You can look at the other officer to see what a "normal" response is to hearing the above phrase.
Did the other officer testify to hearing Castile's statements? I know personally (again through a ton of experience) that if a window is up or a roadway is busy, you often can't hear the conversation on the other side.


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Originally Posted by Runamok View Post
The passenger side officer didn't even change his posture and never even got his firearm out after Yanez shot. Assuming Castile is a right handed shooter the passenger side officer has an even better view than Yanez had. So why didn't he do more than put his hand on his gun?
Perhaps, he didn't have a clue. If you stand at an angle, you may only see the passenger's lap.
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Originally Posted by Revmgt View Post
...
Yanez is holding something, and it's obvious he's waiting for something else to be handed to him because he didn't go back to the car when Castile handed it to him. ..
Yet again we see lay presumption of police procedure as if it is rigidly followed in every situation, and every jurisdiction, across the entire United States.

I won't return to my vehicle to run documents if:

A) I don't have back up to cover me

or

B) I want to keep any eye on the driver, so that my cover's attention isn't split between the occupants.


You can't assume the cop was waiting for something just because he didn't return to his car.


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Originally Posted by Revmgt View Post
After Yanez has the document in his hand, Castile tells him he has a firearm, and Yanez says "Don't reach for it then.". Yanez gets agitated and that's probably when he sees Castile reaching, and says "don't pull it out" again, and then once more.
Castile said "I'm not pulling it out" and that's when the shots were fired.
I initially heard "I'm not pulling it out" because that's what several people said they heard. But after listening multiple times, I hear "I'm hafta (going to have to) pull it out".

Turn up the volume and replay that statement.


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Originally Posted by Revmgt View Post
If Castile just gave Yanez one document and knew he was expected to present two or three, he was likely trying to comply with the instructions to present his documents. When Yanez told him "don't reach for it then", Castile likely assumed Yanez meant the gun, and wasn't reaching for the gun, but the other documents.
If he was going for his wallet, this is a tragedy. If he wasn't, as it seems to be the case to me, it was justified.

As sad as it may be, this could have been prevented by a little bit of listening on behalf of Castile. If he had stopped and asked "well what do you want me to do?", a dialogue would have then taken place and a tragedy likely averted.
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Old Today, 04:43 AM
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Originally Posted by panoz77 View Post
Yanez yelling "stop reaching" had the exact effect it was supposed to have.

Wrong. The effect it was supposed to have was to prevent Castile from getting himself killed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by panoz77 View Post
The exact same effect that it has when officers are trained to yell "stop resisting" in a takedown arrest of a suspect regardless if they are resisting or not. Any bystanders and potential witnesses only hear "stop resisting" and then assume the suspect was resisting.
That would only help if they were charged with resisting. You have to give verbal commands when you can. A person can resist without a bystander seeing the tension. Resistance starts at passive and ends at active aggression.

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Originally Posted by panoz77 View Post
This is standard LEO "ACADEMY" training in effect, about the only training Yanez must have paid attention to.
Oh it's standard LEO training now? How many academies have you attended? I have only been to one and I was never told to yell "stop resisting" unless they were actually resisting. I wouldn't be surprised if someone, somewhere told trainees to always yell "stop resisting". It would be a good practice in order to make it habit while under stress.
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Originally Posted by Inazone View Post
Not that it matters in this case, but for the sake of discussion, what about Yanez's testimony that 1) Castile resembled an armed robbery suspect and 2) there was evidence that Castile and/or Reynolds had been using marijuana in the vehicle? Would either of those, during a "normal" traffic stop, be grounds for a pat-down? I was under the impression that either of those would justify a search of the vehicle, and by extension, its occupants.

Again, not that it matters, based on the outcome.
It never got to that point...

We aren't always in a rush to have people jump out. Slow and easy = low stress, unless there is an imminent threat.
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Originally Posted by Inazone View Post
As far as this is concerned - - what DID you tell them? Would you say that Yanez did exactly what he was instructed to do per his training, and as is standard police practice? So far, you're saying what you as an instructor would NOT tell a student do, but I'm trying to get some perspective on what you WOULD tell a student to do in a situation where a suspect is not complying to an officer's instructions to "not reach for it" while the officer has already drawn his weapon. Because right now, no doubt due to these high-profile cases, there is a lot of talk about many departments having to retrain their officers or revamp the existing training.
I trust my instincts, they have almost always proved to be correct.

If I fear imminent death or great bodily harm, I am going to use deadly force - if I can.

If I do not fear imminent death or great bodily harm, I will jump to appropriate level in the use of force continuum. In most cases that's unarmed, empty-handed techniques. I consider myself an expert in the techniques and they have served me well in a variety of circumstances.


As far as disarming a seated driver of a vehicle (who is a suspect of a crime), his hands are going to be out the window and remain there until someone else can cover me with deadly force.

As for removal from the vehicle in a secure manner, I am not willing to discuss the tactics in a public forum.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helion View Post
If the cop truly believed that guy was a suspect in an armed robbery, he probably would have approached the vehicle, gun drawn and more than just one other dude with him.

I'm not a cop, but it just seems like common sense.

Felony stops are conducted on known armed or dangerous offenders. You are handcuffing occupants, guns are drawn. It's high tension and dangerous for everyone involved.

Castile was a person of interest who happened to also be armed. Not entirely unusual in America.

A pretextual stop was conducted. It seems Yanez viewed Castile as a person of interest, not a known suspect.
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Panoz77, you exhibit some truly disgusting behavior.

Because you can't present a rational opinion, you resort to ad hominem attacks.

I was willing to debate and educate you about how things are in the real world, but now I realize you have zero intent to learn or have a genuine debate.

You just want to provoke. You accuse those who disagree with you as racist. Truly disgusting and immature.
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